Is Smith Ready To Make the Move to Ground?

[MrFedEx]

I've quoted your original post to refresh your memory. You made a categorical statement that PT'ers do not get overtime. That is simply false and misleading. You then try to cover yourself by making a ridiculous statement about PT people getting overtime when they work it. First of all, who get's overtime when they don't work it? I'd like to work there. Secondly, you question my logic and yet you back up my statement that PT'ers get overtime.

I haven't ignored anything (although you would know as you are an expert at that). I explained my position and view on RTD's. I don't claim to know how UPS operates or how much Walmart pays their drivers. I did point out that it was irrelevant as I understand scheduling and work flow and know what the Express RTD's do.

You still haven't explained how you can save money by almost doubling your courier workforce and showing how the disability savings and lower wage will make up for that. Here, I'll help you out to start you off. Cut a FT courier to a PT courier. Assuming he was making $26/hour, you still have to pay him $26/hour but for only 20 hours. Now you hire a PT courier who makes $18/hour (I think it would be more as I think if the topped out courier is at $26, I don't think the range is $8 but I'll go with $18). So you save $8/hour X 20 hours = $160/week or about $700/month. You have to spend money on benefits, training, etc for the new employee. Your $8/hour savings diminishes as time goes on. You are stemming 2 routes out and back each day instead of 1, etc, etc. Eats away at your $700/month savings pretty quickly. As bad as morale may or may not be now, you absolutely destroy it with this move. All things being equal there is no way that Express will go to an all PT workforce. As much as you'd like to scare people into thinking that FedEx would do this, it isn't going to happen.

As for people being able to afford to move, at least FedEx gives them the opportunity. As much as you'd like to blame Fred, it really isn't his fault that the real estate market did what it did. Regardless of that, enlighten us all and show us a company that says to its employees "hey, we know our part time employees could use the money so we're going to make you full time. We don't have the work but we feel bad for you. What's that? The existing full timers? Well they can afford to have their hours cut more so that you new full timers have something to do. What's that? You don't want us to cut their hours? Ok, we won't. We know you'll stand behind us and pat us on the back for making the decision that drives us into bankruptcy. But hey, who the heck wants to plan for the future anyway."

Wow, you caught me on a typo. Good for you. My intent was to show that part-timers seldom receive OT, not that they don't get it at all. Your position and view on RTD's are both ill-informed...as usual. Again, my main point is that PT employees are usually on the short end of the stick at FedEx, which is by design. You can toss out theoretical numbers on having a PT workforce, but it's very clear that Fred saves big bucks with part-timers. You ignored my point that by having the ability to coerce or bait ($$$) a starving part-timer into doing coverage work, that FedEx pays straight time, not OT, and this happens a lot.

As usual, it's all on Fred's terms. What would happen if every part-timer in the entire company refused to work anything but their scheduled regular hours during peak? A massive implosion of the entire system, and a ton of Code 01's and missed or late pickups. PT abuse is part of the plan, designed right into the Express operations from the get-go. If they need you, you might get to work 10 hours, but if they don't, management will happily send you home with 2 hr minimums. Peak is the perfect example, because up until Xmas part-timers are loved, needed, and required. On 12-26, however, they are lucky to get more than their 17.5. Fred's way, Fred's terms, and Fred reaps the benefits of a flexible workforce that he knows is easily manipulated in most cases.

Keep on pretending that FedEx plays fair with it's workers, because it's a huge lie. Spin-it, explain it, twist it however you like, but it's not right, and you know it.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

You might try your local soup kitchen. They usually have Turkey dinners.

bbsam, I usually enjoy your posts but I think you should have thought twice before posting this one. I know what you were trying to say but the message did not come through--the one that did made you come off as a jerk. (Sorry but that is the only word I could come up with. Dave.)

 

[quadro]

Wow, you caught me on a typo. Good for you.

You say typo, I say intent to mislead.

My intent was to show that part-timers seldom receive OT, not that they don't get it at all.

It appears that your intent was to bolster your claim about PT employees. You didn't even come close to saying they seldom get OT. That's not a typo.

Your position and view on RTD's are both ill-informed...as usual.

My mistake, there's a ton of work to do for RTD's during the day. Newgirl pretty much spelled it all out so perhaps you can enlighten us on what she missed.

Again, my main point is that PT employees are usually on the short end of the stick at FedEx, which is by design.

PT employees are by definition part time. There is one difference between a FT and PT employee at FedEX, disability. Most employees fortunately don't use disability. At UPS if I'm not mistaken, the pay rate is different for PT employees. Every PT employee uses a pay rate. How is that being on the short end of the stick?

You can toss out theoretical numbers on having a PT workforce, but it's very clear that Fred saves big bucks with part-timers. You ignored my point that by having the ability to coerce or bait ($$$) a starving part-timer into doing coverage work, that FedEx pays straight time, not OT, and this happens a lot.

Calling the numbers theoretical doesn't change the fact that there is a substantial cost to FedEx if it were to change all employees to PT and then hire enough employees to cover all the open routes. If FedEx has to coerce and bait PT employees to work, then they probably don't want to work full time anyway. Not in all cases but most part timers that want full time want it for the additional hours so why would you need to coerce and bait them?

As usual, it's all on Fred's terms. What would happen if every part-timer in the entire company refused to work anything but their scheduled regular hours during peak? A massive implosion of the entire system, and a ton of Code 01's and missed or late pickups. PT abuse is part of the plan, designed right into the Express operations from the get-go. If they need you, you might get to work 10 hours, but if they don't, management will happily send you home with 2 hr minimums. Peak is the perfect example, because up until Xmas part-timers are loved, needed, and required. On 12-26, however, they are lucky to get more than their 17.5. Fred's way, Fred's terms, and Fred reaps the benefits of a flexible workforce that he knows is easily manipulated in most cases.

I'll ask once again, show me a company that builds a work schedule based on the number of hours that the employee wants to work. Schedules are always on the employer's terms. I know you don't like Fred but you are really reaching here. Every part timer in the company isn't going to refuse to work their regular schedule. Every peak there are plenty of part timers that want to work and are happy to do so. They just wish they could work those type of hours more often. I would love to see those that want FT get it. If you are willing to work and want to, then fantastic. Many, many PT'ers would be ecstatic. The reality of the situation is that there is only so much work to go around. You start making too many PT'ers FT and you take away hours from the FT employees who would then be much less than ecstatic. As for having a flexible workforce, you've already explained why FedEx needs it.

Keep on pretending that FedEx plays fair with it's workers, because it's a huge lie. Spin-it, explain it, twist it however you like, but it's not right, and you know it.

Fair is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. There are things that FedEx does that may not seem fair to some but are designed to ensure equal treatment. There are things that FedEx does that seem fair but may not actually be depending on one's point of view. There are things that I absolutely disagree with but understand that they're done to try to ensure things are fair. I never said FedEx was perfect. I just disagree that it's the evil empire you make it out to be.

 

[bbsam]

bbsam, I usually enjoy your posts but I think you should have thought twice before posting this one. I know what you were trying to say but the message did not come through--the one that did made you come off as a jerk. (Sorry but that is the only word I could come up with. Dave.)

As a matter of fact, I did think twice about it. And yes I come off sounding like a jerk (if not worse). But this time I don't care. I am not above helping others nor am I above needing help from others. There was a time when I had nowhere left to turn than these organizations and it was a fascinating experience. People there were not groveling in abject misery about the state of their lives. We weren't complaining about what we didn't have. Mostly we talked about sports and women and politics and such. In fact, it felt like just about any cafeteria.

Years ago at the onset of my stay at a long term substance abuse treatment facility, I was asked to sign a certain paper. That signature would allow the facility to purchase food for me through a government assistance program. I refused. A couple days later my counselor asked me about my refusal. I looked straight at her and said, "I feel like a welfare recipient!" As I spoke the words it became clear. I was a welfare recipient. My counselor just smiled. She then asked me the question that I think is relevant here. Why shouldn't I be helped? Why shouldn't others be helped? I don't blame others for looking down on people receiving help, I did it myself. But I think it is out of stereotypical arrogance and ignorance. I don't view these public services or people making use of them with any pity or resentment whatsoever and am disgusted with those who do. We are very similar, similar to the point that we are them.

 

[vantexan]

Where are newhires being hired at $18hr? New York? San Francisco? The majority of stations from observing JCATS appear to be "A" or "B"(the lowest) payscales. "B" payscale starts at just over $14hr.

Look at the Monday plan of many stations. By only taking Monday freight and starting earlier they cover more area with less people. Now imagine if they send E2 and Express Saver to Ground. They would still have the same number of people doing P1, but they'll get off earlier with only SO left to do. Extended rts like mine only have SO in limited areas. Most of my area is PM area, P1 by 1630. Without E2 or XS I'd be lucky to get 8 hrs most days, less than 6 some days. If anything might find rts may be restructured to have 2 people doing what 3 people did before. Taking SO away from Express would probably cause more problems than it solved, but there's definitely the potential to save serious money by shifting freight to Ground. If FedEx ever does accelerate top-out times, it'll probably go hand in hand with reducing hours to prevent a mass exodus out the door by angry employees.

 

[vantexan]

Why shouldn't I be helped? Why shouldn't others be helped? I don't blame others for looking down on people receiving help, I did it myself. But I think it is out of stereotypical arrogance and ignorance. I don't view these public services or people making use of them with any pity or resentment whatsoever and am disgusted with those who do. We are very similar, similar to the point that we are them.

I'm all for a social safety net for those in need. I'm very much against forcing hard working people into that need. After my parents divorce I spent years in poverty. It's a soul crushing experience. I wouldn't want to see a proud hard working father having to take his kids down to eat with current substance abusers. They may very well be good people, like you, who need help. Many aren't and most parents wouldn't want to expose their kids to that side of life. Sorry, but it's very flippant to tell someone that. Better to dip into your crapload of money and buy some turkeys for your employees.

 

[bbsam]

Yes it is flippant. If you and yours are too good to eat with me and mine, well, so be it. But if you change your mind, we will always make room at the table.

 

[MrFedEx]

Hey quadro, listen up. My intent is never to mislead...that's your job. If you want to seize-upon one typo and say it's purposeful deception, go right ahead. My agenda is only to inform and educate...nothing else. I've said repeatedly that the Teamsters are a poor choice, but still a better choice than Fred S. If you want to keep on believing in your FedEx fairy tale, keep right on doing it. I hear the Church of Scientology is looking for new recruits who will swallow anything, so perhaps there's a place for you there too.

Part-timers are counted-on to fill in the gaps every day. At my station, several PT people have had to go to HR because they actually want to be PT and don't want to do pickups, late freight, or be asked to come in at 0400 and cover for the ramp shuttle. They have kids, second jobs, school, or whatever, and expect to work only their scheduled hours. None of that stops management from pressuring them to work when there are massive sick calls or late freight. I've seen several of the female ones in tears because they've been guilt-tripped or received veiled threats that they could be replaced if they do not work.

Conversely, there are plenty of hungry PT couriers who work at every opportunity for $15 per hour and do whatever management wants whenever they need them to. We have a real need to upgrade several people to FT, but guess what? FedEx won't do it, because they know they can get away with the current arrangement. Someone will always step forward.

There are plenty of companies that realize putting frontline employees first pays big dividends. Ironically, FedEx used to be one of them. Their payoff will be a real shortage of qualified people when the economy improves, and it is improving. Lots of people have exit strategies, applications on-file with many employers, and plans for a different type of career. I laugh when I see what comes through the door these days, and this is the future of FedEx, or maybe not, because most of them will see what a crap career this has become and leave. Quality employees are what allows FedEx to retain customers through quality service and professional relationships.

So, please go on pretending everything is OK at Express, because it isn't, and Purple People like you are increasingly hard to find. Fred wants more of us to be PT, totally flexible, and poorly paid. Like I said, it's the plan, and the only thing that will ever get FedEx workers any degree of fair treatment is a union contract.

 

[vantexan]

Yes it is flippant. If you and yours are too good to eat with me and mine, well, so be it. But if you change your mind, we will always make room at the table.

Not too proud, just remember my own childhood, wouldn't want my kids, if I had any, to experience the same. I'm not going to toot my horn to tell everyone what I've done to assist those in need. Most people try to do what they can. And living in a travel trailer I'm well aware of the judgmental attitudes out there. But I'm a firm believer in protecting children's innocence. Want to invite an adult? Fine. But parents try very hard to do right by their kids. A good man can be poor but he'll do whatever he can to make sure his kids have decent clothes and plenty to eat, even if he has to work 2 jobs. You are being flippant about that. Or you just don't get it.

 

[bbsam]

Not too proud, just remember my own childhood, wouldn't want my kids, if I had any, to experience the same. I'm not going to toot my horn to tell everyone what I've done to assist those in need. Most people try to do what they can. And living in a travel trailer I'm well aware of the judgmental attitudes out there. But I'm a firm believer in protecting children's innocence. Want to invite an adult? Fine. But parents try very hard to do right by their kids. A good man can be poor but he'll do whatever he can to make sure his kids have decent clothes and plenty to eat, even if he has to work 2 jobs. You are being flippant about that. Or you just don't get it.

If what you say is true, then I agree. But too often I see (as in my own case) pride getting in the way of reasonableness. And it is to a large degree false pride an idea that "I am better than them." Or "That's ok for them, but I'm different." And it's not just substance abuse people showing up at these locations. The circumstances of one's situation are not important. Therein lies how similar we all are. But if one insists on finding the differences, one will find those also no matter how insignificant they may be. This is all seeming very first century Christianity-like.

 

[quadro]

Where are newhires being hired at $18hr? New York? San Francisco? The majority of stations from observing JCATS appear to be "A" or "B"(the lowest) payscales. "B" payscale starts at just over $14hr.

It actually doesn't matter what the starting pay is as the range is about the same in most markets therefore the $/hour savings would still be the same.

Look at the Monday plan of many stations. By only taking Monday freight and starting earlier they cover more area with less people. Now imagine if they send E2 and Express Saver to Ground. They would still have the same number of people doing P1, but they'll get off earlier with only SO left to do. Extended rts like mine only have SO in limited areas. Most of my area is PM area, P1 by 1630. Without E2 or XS I'd be lucky to get 8 hrs most days, less than 6 some days. If anything might find rts may be restructured to have 2 people doing what 3 people did before. Taking SO away from Express would probably cause more problems than it solved, but there's definitely the potential to save serious money by shifting freight to Ground. If FedEx ever does accelerate top-out times, it'll probably go hand in hand with reducing hours to prevent a mass exodus out the door by angry employees.

I am confident that E2 and XS is not going over to Ground so it doesn't really matter. If it turns out I'm wrong then fine but in the meantime, I stand by what I said. You are not going to see Express move to Ground. Express would basically implode as explained previously.

 

[quadro]

Hey quadro, listen up. My intent is never to mislead...that's your job. If you want to seize-upon one typo and say it's purposeful deception, go right ahead. My agenda is only to inform and educate...nothing else.

So when you say something misleading it's a typo but when I present a fact (you can call it an opinion or hypothesis if fact is too strong for you) you say it's misleading? Wow, talk about a double standard.

I've said repeatedly that the Teamsters are a poor choice, but still a better choice than Fred S. If you want to keep on believing in your FedEx fairy tale, keep right on doing it. I hear the Church of Scientology is looking for new recruits who will swallow anything, so perhaps there's a place for you there too.

And I absolutely respect your right to choose and believe that a union would be better for you. I have no issues with that. Unfortunately, it doesn't work the other way round as you choose to belittle anyone who disagrees with your choice. I think that severely undermines your credibility.

Part-timers are counted-on to fill in the gaps every day. At my station, several PT people have had to go to HR because they actually want to be PT and don't want to do pickups, late freight, or be asked to come in at 0400 and cover for the ramp shuttle. They have kids, second jobs, school, or whatever, and expect to work only their scheduled hours. None of that stops management from pressuring them to work when there are massive sick calls or late freight. I've seen several of the female ones in tears because they've been guilt-tripped or received veiled threats that they could be replaced if they do not work.

Conversely, there are plenty of hungry PT couriers who work at every opportunity for $15 per hour and do whatever management wants whenever they need them to. We have a real need to upgrade several people to FT, but guess what? FedEx won't do it, because they know they can get away with the current arrangement. Someone will always step forward.

There are plenty of companies that realize putting frontline employees first pays big dividends. Ironically, FedEx used to be one of them. Their payoff will be a real shortage of qualified people when the economy improves, and it is improving. Lots of people have exit strategies, applications on-file with many employers, and plans for a different type of career. I laugh when I see what comes through the door these days, and this is the future of FedEx, or maybe not, because most of them will see what a crap career this has become and leave. Quality employees are what allows FedEx to retain customers through quality service and professional relationships.

So, please go on pretending everything is OK at Express, because it isn't, and Purple People like you are increasingly hard to find. Fred wants more of us to be PT, totally flexible, and poorly paid. Like I said, it's the plan, and the only thing that will ever get FedEx workers any degree of fair treatment is a union contract.

You have yet to explain how spreading out the existing work among more people and cutting FT hours is the right thing to do. Consider this, there are about 3 times as many FT couriers as there are PT couriers at Express. That's the same ratio as it was a year ago. Where is the increase in PT'ers? The business we are in needs flexibility so there is a need to have PT employees, not just FT. I don't think it's ok to pressure people or coerce them. I don't think it's ok to abuse employees. I don't think it's ok to take hours from FT employees and give them to PT employees just because they deserve FT hours if the work isn't there.

By the way, what happened to the 10000 full time jobs UPS was supposed to create? How did the union handle that?

 

[vantexan]

By the way, what happened to the 10000 full time jobs UPS was supposed to create? How did the union handle that?

I believe UPS is anticipating hiring that many or more to replace retiring drivers over a number of years. I'm no expert on UPS but I'm guessing those newhires will be replacing the PTers who move into the rts vacated by retirees.

FedEx has quite a few older couriers who'll be retiring in the next 10 years. The difference is UPS newhires will top out in 3 years so even if they are part time they can get by decently. FedEx newhires on the other hand will be in constant flux because they'll never do as well as current topped out employees and many will throw in the towel before they even reach 10 years. I wonder how the turnover rate of FedEx compares with UPS? UPS is where you go to have a future. FedEx is what you do until something better comes along.

 

[FedExer267]

If what you say is true, then I agree. But too often I see (as in my own case) pride getting in the way of reasonableness. And it is to a large degree false pride an idea that "I am better than them." Or "That's ok for them, but I'm different." And it's not just substance abuse people showing up at these locations. The circumstances of one's situation are not important. Therein lies how similar we all are. But if one insists on finding the differences, one will find those also no matter how insignificant they may be. This is all seeming very first century Christianity-like.

bbsam you are acting like a typical contractor in this scenario. I have kids that are fed with government help yes but that is because FedEx's business practices put me in this situation. I as you know don't get OT we don't get any bonuses what so ever from my Contractor even though we know he gets them. That being said DOT rules say I can work 70 hours a week that includes 2nd jobs as well. Trust me I have checked. If I am working 60 hours a week already who is going to hire me for 10 hours a week. Right, I have tried. The issue is what other job can you work 60 hours a week and still qualify for assistance, I should not have to. Thank you Vantexan by the way.
For you bbsam just so you know how this typical ground guy spends his time after work, I do side work when I can find it. I am out every garbage night collecting recycables to get extra cash. My kids are fed, they have a roof over their head, they have clothes on their bodies, they are good students and very respectful kids. I do everything I can to make sure my kids are taken care of.
The truly sad thing is I work 60 hours a week thats 20 hours a week OT 80 hours a month. Every month Contractors get 2 weeks free labor out of theiir workforce and like I said before its truly a sad day when a 60 hour week cant provide for you and your family. Nevermind we dont get benefits at all and its not like we can afford to buy our own package of benefits on what we get paid.

I will not take my kids to a soup kitchen and have them eating dinner with bums and junkies if it was just me fine. I dont need my kids to see as long as I work at this place they wont get better. My kids brag about the fact their dad drives for FEDEX and I will never let them know the truth how this company runs. I just go along.

 

[vantexan]

Hey FedExer267 someday your kids will know the sacrifices you made for them. Happy Thanksgiving amigo, hang in there!

 

[Myort]

I am confident that E2 and XS is not going over to Ground so it doesn't really matter. If it turns out I'm wrong then fine but in the meantime, I stand by what I said. You are not going to see Express move to Ground. Express would basically implode as explained previously.

I have worked in ramp and hub ops and I don't think it will be possible to fully move E2 and XS frt over to ground. Normally, that freight moves on the day sorts and gets to the end locations the night before. Some of it is trucked and some is flown to the end locations. Problem is, some of it gets rolled over to the night sorts and some cities will get alot of E2 freight along with their P1/SO on the plane in the morning, all mixed in the same cans. There is no way this freight can be seperated out when it is mixed in with the P1.

I think what you will see though is less XS and E2 freight as customers that shipped it in the past will ship ground instead, since it will be cheaper and in many cases, can get there just as fast.

 

[bbsam]

Intresting conversation I to like spam and try not to think about how its made. Unfortunatley for me the Spam we eat is our steak because I work for Ground and can't afford real meat. I am thinking about upgrading to tongue for thanksgiving however I am sure it might taste a little like spam and then maybe next year I can actually afford a Turkey. I just wonder how it will go over with my kids but its ok I have plenty of top ramen to make them.

Perhaps, 267, I come off like the typical contractor because you come off like the typical driver. We all work within the framework of the company we work for. Every driver wants more pay. Every driver is stretching the dollar. Every contractor is hearing about it. It is not because we don't appreciate the work drivers do that the pay doesn't mirror driver pay at UPS. We simply can't afford that. And after some time hearing over and over about how Ground sucks and "just wait 'til the economy improves", blah, blah, blah, I start to wonder if there is a suitable answer. It appears that Ground is the best thing going for now but you don't like it. Fine. But there comes a time when it simply sounds like you don't want a solution, you want something to bitch about and for now, Ground is the best thing going for that too. It's not about Spam or turkey or tongue. It's about your crappy job, your crappy contractor, the crappy company and the crappy economic system that they thrive in. Of course those seem all to be out of our control, a fact that perpetuates our unhappiness in the situation.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

By the way, what happened to the 10000 full time jobs UPS was supposed to create? How did the union handle that?

I believe UPS is anticipating hiring that many or more to replace retiring drivers over a number of years. I'm no expert on UPS but I'm guessing those newhires will be replacing the PTers who move into the rts vacated by retirees.

The 10K FT jobs quadro is referring to was part of the previous National Master Agreement (NMA). The intent was to combine part-time jobs in to Article 22.3 FT jobs. This has not worked out the way that it was intended and the company has actually been reducing the number of 22.3 jobs while the union turns a blind eye.

Van, we are anticipating hiring to replace retirees but this was not what the 10K jobs was for.

 

[newgirl]

I think what you will see though is less XS and E2 freight as customers that shipped it in the past will ship ground instead, since it will be cheaper and in many cases, can get there just as fast.

Right. If project Condor is second day air by 1030 then why send E2 business by 1630? Depending on how they price it we may see a drop in E2. Will they drop XS alltogether? Why sell it anymore if Ground can do it better and faster. We are going to defer it to the day it's due,but, if it's in their bldg ground delivers it according to bbsam. Plus, someone mentioned that FedEx Corp will start advertising overnight ground. They do it anyway, why not advertise it? I know that I buy from a certain internet company because I know if I get my order in by 9am I will have it next day, even on SDR, through ground/HD and I pay 6 bucks.

 

[Myort]

Right. If project Condor is second day air by 1030 then why send E2 business by 1630? Depending on how they price it we may see a drop in E2. Will they drop XS alltogether? Why sell it anymore if Ground can do it better and faster. We are going to defer it to the day it's due,but, if it's in their bldg ground delivers it according to bbsam. Plus, someone mentioned that FedEx Corp will start advertising overnight ground. They do it anyway, why not advertise it? I know that I buy from a certain internet company because I know if I get my order in by 9am I will have it next day, even on SDR, through ground/HD and I pay 6 bucks.

I think UPS has a 2nd day Am delivery service by 10:30 along with the standard 2-day service. FedEx will likely copy them.