Low IQ's and Conservative Values Linked

Catatonic

Nine Lives
1) Evolution cannot be proved using the Scientific Method - it is not reproducible.
Gravity can be proved using the Scientific Method - it works every time.

2) Evolution is accepted by the Scientific Community and Review because of the preponderance of evidence.

3)Evolution does not address how life started ... just that once here, it evolved.

1)You should do a little more reading. This is just one example, evolution and speciation have both been reproduced and observed in laboratory settings. You know what really can't be reproduced? Starts with a "c"... :wink2:



2) True as far it goes, but it also accepted because it is the only valid, observable, falsifiable explanation that doesn't rely on supernatural intervention.



3) Evolutionary theory was never intended to address how life began, that's an entirely different discussion.


1) Link goes to nowhere and not the Samuel Butler version. My point was related to Macro-evolution of which I still don't know of any. The underlying concern here for the Creationists is the evolution from small rodent-like animals to apes to humans. I don't think that is reproducible.

2) Only one at this point in time. The scientific history is replete with many well accepted theories considered true beyond question that turned out to be wrong.

3) That was my point ... please quit repeating me. :obeyhypnosmiley:
I made this statement because the big-bang was being leveraged in several posts which has nothing to do with evolution.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
1) Link goes to nowhere and not the Samuel Butler version. My point was related to Macro-evolution of which I still don't know of any. The underlying concern here for the Creationists is the evolution from small rodent-like animals to apes to humans. I don't think that is reproducible.

2) Only one at this point in time. The scientific history is replete with many well accepted theories considered true beyond question that turned out to be wrong.

3) That was my point ... please quit repeating me. :obeyhypnosmiley:
I made this statement because the big-bang was being leveraged in several posts which has nothing to do with evolution.
Link is a little funny, but here ya go:
[SIZE=+2]Test Tube Evolution Catches Time in a Bottle[/SIZE]
Tim Appenzeller
By running experiments on microbes for thousands of generations,
researchers are exploring the roles of chance and history in evolution

For most living things, 24,000 generations is a daunting span of time. Go back that many human generations, or about 500,000 years, and Homo sapiens had not yet evolved. Even for the fruit flies beloved of geneticists, 24,000 generations equals about 1500 years. But in Richard Lenski's laboratory at Michigan State University in East Lansing, 24,000 generations ago is a recent memory. The year was 1988, when he and his students first introduced 12 genetically identical populations of the bacterium Escherichia coli to their new homes: 50-milliliter flasks filled with sugary broth.
Since then, those bacteria have been clocking up the generations at a rate of about one every 3.5 hours, mutating and adapting right in front of Lenski's eyes. Lenski is a founding member of a subculture of evolutionary biologists--many of them his former students and colleagues--who are watching evolution unfold in laboratory cultures of microbes, where a single experiment can span enough generations for major evolutionary change. These laboratory microcosms, whether of bacteria, viruses, or yeast, can turn evolution into an experimental science, says Michael Travisano of the University of Houston. "You have the luxury of making a prediction, and then you can test it. It's almost like physics."
Researchers can subject populations to the same environmental stresses again and again--a procedure that Paul Sniegowski of the University of Pennsylvania calls "analogous to being able to revive the fossils and rerun the evolutionary events." They can thaw out ancestral forms, stored in laboratory freezers in what Lenski calls a "frozen fossil record," and compare them to their descendants. And they can monitor the microbes' genomes as they evolve, tracking the ultimate roots of those changes in DNA or RNA. "It's some of the most exciting stuff in evolution," says Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University.
These laboratory microcosms are allowing researchers to address some of the field's biggest questions, such as how often the twists and turns of evolution are the result of chance rather than adaptation. Researchers can study how evolutionary baggage from one round of selection affects how an organism fares in the next, and how adaptive radiations can arise from a single organism. And they can address a question that has preoccupied evolutionary thinkers like Gould: How reproducible is evolution? If the history of life could be replayed from the same starting point, how differently would it unfold? So far they are finding that identical populations facing similar conditions can follow parallel courses, although the underlying genetic changes often differ. But over time, in new environments, the effects of those differences can grow, steering evolution into radically different courses and giving chance and history ever larger roles in a population's fate.
With the enormous complexity of nature reduced to test tube systems, researchers have to approach such questions with humility, Gould notes: "Of course, you're looking at a very different world at a different time scale." Nor can researchers even be sure that what they see in one evolutionary microcosm will apply to any other, adds Holly Wichman of the University of Idaho, Moscow, who studies evolution in viruses. "One of the questions is how well [test tube findings] are going to generalize. ... Is every case going to be a special story?"
Still, the granddaddy of these experiments--the 11-year, 24,000-generation E. coli cultures in Lenski's laboratory--is telling stories about predictability, chance, and history that other experiments have echoed. All 12 of Lenski's cultures experience the same stresses: a daily boom-and-bust cycle, in which the bacteria are transferred to fresh glucose medium every 24 hours, then undergo 6 hours or so of plenty followed by 18 hours of starvation. All 12 lines have adapted to this regimen; when the researchers do a head-to-head comparison between the evolved bacteria and the ancestral strain, plucked from the freezer and revived, the descendants now grow about 60% faster in their standard glucose-containing medium. All 12 populations show other parallel changes, too--for example, a still-unexplained, twofold increase in cell size.
Yet underneath these consistent responses to selective pressure, says Lenski, "you see all this hidden variation." The fitness increases were almost identical in all of the populations, but not quite; the cell size expanded in all 12 lineages, but by different amounts. And when Lenski and his colleagues, including Michel Blot of the University of Grenoble in France and Werner Arber of the University of Basel in Switzerland, analyzed the genomes of their adapted bacteria, the similarities vanished. By chopping up the bacteria's DNA with enzymes and applying probes that home in on known sequences, they found that after thousands of generations, the populations' genomes were riddled with changes. The changes were different in each population and had accumulated at very different rates, the group reported in the March Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, even though the fitness increases were similar. That indicates what the authors called "conspicuous and significant discrepancies" between genomic evolution and its visible effects.
Lenski and graduate student Mark Stanek are now trying to pinpoint the particular beneficial mutations that boosted the bacteria's fitness. They've found one so far--and it is present in just one lineage, strengthening the idea that the others have found different paths to higher fitness. When it comes to organisms' adaptive performance, says Lenski, "evolution is remarkably reproducible. But as you move away from performance, to cell size or genes, things are less and less reproducible." Because all 12 populations started out genetically identical and have experienced the same selective pressures, the differences underscore the role of chance in setting evolution's course.
Evolutionary baggage

The role of chance becomes even more obvious over time, as those genetic differences become part of the baggage that organisms carry to their next evolutionary challenge--baggage that can dramatically affect how they fare, as Travisano and Lenski have shown. They took samples of the 12 E. coli populations after the bacteria had been growing in glucose for 2000 generations. By that point, all 12 populations had improved their ability to grow on glucose by about the same amount. But when they were put in a different sugar, maltose, some populations thrived while others languished. For each population adapting to limited glucose, says Travisano, "it seems likely that glucose uptake was tweaked in subtly different ways. And those subtly different tweaks had big effects in a different environment."
He and Lenski then allowed all 12 lineages of bacteria to evolve for another 1000 generations on their new staple, maltose. Evolution did its work, and after months of mutation and selection, all 12 could grow well on maltose. But the fitness improvement was not as consistent as it had been on glucose, where the starting genotype had been identical. Evolution was no longer as reproducible as before, because of chance variations in how the populations had adapted to their earlier environment. "Once we had diversity, we could prune it back tremendously with adaptation. But not completely. Once you are different, that difference tends to persist," says Travisano.
To Travisano, the results are a lesson in the importance of prior history in shaping the way organisms respond to an adaptive challenge. They "tell you that variation arises very easily ... and it doesn't arise in ways that are easily predicted."
Other researchers are weighing the roles of predictability and chance in adaptive radiations, in which one form gives rise to many. Paul Rainey at the University of Oxford in England seeds vials of sugar water with cells of the common plant bacterium Pseudomonas fluorescens. He avoids shaking the containers, allowing the environment to stratify into regions that are chemically and physically different, with oxygen-rich layers near the surface and oxygen- depleted but nutrient-rich layers beneath. The result is a diverse array of ecological niches for the bacteria to fill--what an animal species newly arrived on an empty continent might find. He then follows their evolution for 10 days.
In his original work, done with Travisano and published in Nature last year (also see Science, 17 October 1997, p. 390), Rainey found that in virtually every one of these microcosms, the bacteria evolve into three major forms. He named them for the appearance of their colonies when he grows them on culture plates: wrinkly spreader, fuzzy spreader, and smooth morph, which is the unchanged ancestral form. Each has a taste for a particular niche, with the wrinkly spreader congregating at the surface of the broth, the smooth morph spreading through the liquid, and the fuzzy spreader hugging the bottom.
Rainey is now trying to account for these tastes. So far, he and his students have learned that wrinkly spreader overproduces a cellulose-based polymer, which helps glue the cells together into a mat. The mat supports them at the surface, where the wrinkly spreader cells benefit from the abundant air supply.
These miniature adaptive radiations unfold in the same way every time, governed by the available environmental niches. And Julian Adams, at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, saw some of the same repeatability in his experiments, where diversity arises seemingly out of nothing. Adams, with Frank Rosenzweig, now at the University of Idaho, Moscow, and their colleagues, grew genetically identical E. coli populations in a device called a chemostat, which kept conditions for the bacteria blissfully constant, except for a steady shortage of glucose. But in spite of this uniformity, two or more E. coli variants--an ecosystem in miniature--regularly made their appearance after around 200 generations, or about a month, says Adams.
The group first got a clue that one strain had turned into several when they extracted samples from their cultures, grew them on plates, and saw colonies of different sizes, rather than the uniform colony size expected of genetically uniform bacteria. "The differences were so dramatic that we thought we had contamination" and shut down the system, Adams recalls. "I don't want to tell you how many times we did that before we cottoned on to what was happening." He and his colleagues went on to show that at least two strains had evolved in their chemostats.
Originally, Adams explains, natural selection favored mutants that had a souped-up appetite for glucose and so could outgrow its neighbors. But bacteria can metabolize only so much glucose; as their biochemistry got clogged with the sugar, the glucose-hogging mutants shunted the excess from aerobic metabolism to the less efficient anaerobic pathway, which generates a waste product, acetate. As Rosenzweig, Adams, and their colleagues described in the August 1994 issue of Genetics, the acetate buildup created a new ecological opportunity, and eventually a mutant emerged that could fill it: a new acetate-scavenging strain. Adams and his colleagues reported last summer in Molecular Biology and Evolution that the acetate scavengers appeared in six out of 12 populations they studied, and each time a mutation in the regulatory region of a gene that influences acetate uptake was responsible.
"It's the first stage in speciation," says Adams. "Diversity can exist even if you don't seed it with something that can drive diversification." And like other studies, this one shows that diversification is not only inevitable but also follows a predictable course.
But even if the general outline of such experiments is predictable, in many cases the genetic pathway they take depends on chance, as Travisano saw when he transferred glucose-adapted bacteria to maltose. That seems to be the case for Rainey's wrinkly spreader strains, too. When his group took 24 wrinkly spreader strains that had evolved independently and then forced them to evolve back into a smooth form by shaking their vials to keep the culture medium from becoming stratified, Rainey says, "some go back easily; some sort of struggle," implying differences in their genetic makeup. Thus, Rainey concludes that "you can become wrinkly spreader by a variety of different paths."
The influence of chance and history on how organisms diversify is still more vivid in Rainey and his students' new experiments, in which they introduce an additional evolutionary force: a predator. After allowing the microcosms to diversify, they infect them with a bacteriophage, a virus that kills bacteria. The population crashes, then rebounds as a resistant strain takes over. The resurgent strain diversifies again--but it does so differently within each microcosm, spawning odd new variants including a strain that secretes a mucoid slime.
"What it comes down to is just a chance thing," Rainey says. "The phage puts the population through a bottleneck, which increases the role of chance. The reproducibility goes out the door." Only individuals that happen to be resistant to the phage pass through the bottleneck, and the array of genes they carry varies from microcosm to microcosm. As a result, each miniature ecosystem rediversifies from a different starting point and reaches strange new adaptive peaks.
Carbon-copy evolution

In some experiments, however, evolution seems truly reproducible down to the level of genes--for example, Adams's work in which genetically similar acetate mutants appeared six times out of 12. Now researchers are trying to work out why. Travisano, for example, has reversed the experiment in which he switched glucose-adapted bacteria to a diet of maltose and saw a wide variety of responses. In work published in the June 1997 issue of Genetics, he adapted 12 identical populations of E. coli to a restricted diet of maltose. After 1000 generations, he switched them to glucose. But this time, every population responded to the diet switch in the same way, continuing to thrive. Apparently all 12 populations had evolved in the same way--perhaps, Travisano suggests, because bacterial physiology offers just one way to do better in maltose, forcing all of the populations down the same evolutionary path.
Similarly, Wichman, James Bull of the University of Texas, Austin, and their colleagues have found that the mutations underlying high-temperature adaptations in a particular bacteriophage are surprisingly reproducible, right down to the specific changes in the DNA sequence. Now Wichman, Bull, and their students are trying to identify the factors that favor this kind of predictability. "It's really too early to tell what the rules are," she says, but she is enjoying her privileged view of evolution. "It's amazing to watch changes sweep through a population in a way we knew happened but had never seen before."
-- Tim Appenzeller
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
wkmac,

Where in the world did you get the idea that I asked this question about teaching the Theory of I.D. from a position that it is a conspiracy against JESUS ????? Or did this though simply just EVOLVE from you.

I have never mentioned Jesus, Christianity or defense of support for any religion.

In a very accurate "nutshell" The question revolved around the millions,and millions if not billions of people that believe in SOME FORM of I.D. -- why is such a cry from Liberals that it violates seperation of Church and State. I did not mention any Church, any religion, Jesus or anything close. ???

Your earlier claim was that American colleges didn't teach ID and then you used the film Expelled to make the point further. One of the underlying claims within the film is some type of conspiracy against ID because of it's obvious religious connection. Said conspiracy was not direct to Jesus, I just used the absurd to focus on an absurd claim. You say it's not taught and then MFE also claims it's not taught because of the separation doctrine and thus my point of the 2 of you sharing the same false claim with different rationals to justify your positions. I just find both of your claims absurd!

Millions and millions if not billions of people over time also thought the sun revolved around the earth. They thought the known universe was not much bigger than our solar system, they thought god caused and then the devil caused disease and then a majority voted in Obama after a majority voted in Bush. The majority in America once believed that men and women of African ancestery were less than human and could be bought and sold like so many farm animals and were even able to justify their beliefs with the bible itself. Majority of parents may at one point or another tell their kids of a fake fat man in a red suit who brings gifts and flies in a sleigh. Some would argue it was a majority that demanded Jesus be crucified!

Just because majorities believe something doesn't make it not a case of mass delusion!

BTW: You do realize that the majority of people on the planet actually believe in a god different from yours so if this is all about majority rule, once again you are wrong. Because a mass of people believe something, it's just a very bad criteria to use to justify one's position.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
For all of the deep thinkers and researchers on this subject. How do you feel about the Cambrian period ??--again there are two side to this ---some doubt it happened --others show evidence of no-evolution-but rather describe it as a revolution.


China seems to have more freedom to investigate these fossils than "Liberal Academia" in the U.S. will allow.

Since you brought up the Cambrian explosion, I saw an article today suggesting life forms existed pre-Cambrian. Darwin expressed the fact that the Cambrian posed a problem for his ideas but he hoped over time evidence would surface to help solve the dilemma and we may be seeing that evidence emerge. Need to watch going forward to see if that works out!
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Wkmac,

On point one --either me or Jewish Ben Stein --defending "Jesus" is a real stretch .

Point two ---Millions of people believing in some type or sort of "Intelligent design" certainly does describe why I believe the "ID" theory should be taught . Again was not defending "My GOD"

So again the Question begs: Where was I pushing ANY Religion or a particular "God" ????


P.S. Since you try to be always exact in your posts --The Cambian Period--has nothing to do with whether life existed before Cambian --the question revolves around what form of life pre and post --hard shell skeleton --soft spongy etc etc. Does some life after Cambian show no evidence of being evolved is the real point.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
So in an ID system, is there also a destructive satanic force?



bbsam,

I.D. SYSEM ??? Fact there are millions and millions of people that believe there is a higher being or more intelligent being . God, Religion, Satan, Jesus, Allah, Buddist, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, etc,etc,etc--all different issues. I am sure we can find some people believe that the Intelligent Design for them are Martians.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
bbsam,

I.D. SYSEM ??? Fact there are millions and millions of people that believe there is a higher being or more intelligent being . God, Religion, Satan, Jesus, Allah, Buddist, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, etc,etc,etc--all different issues. I am sure we can find some people believe that the Intelligent Design for them are Martians.

If you believe science....for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If there's good, there's got to be bad.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
Don't take my word for it. Listen to what two former Republican ideologues, David Frum and Mike Lofgren, have been saying. Frum warns that "conservatives have built a whole alternative knowledge system, with its own facts, its own history, its own laws of economics". The result is a "shift to ever more extreme, ever more fantasy-based ideology" which has "ominous real-world consequences for American society".
Lofgren complains that "the crackpot outliers of two decades ago have become the vital center today". The Republican party, with its "prevailing anti-intellectualism and hostility to science" is appealing to what he calls the "low-information voter", or the "misinformation voter". While most office holders probably don't believe the "reactionary and paranoid claptrap" they peddle, "they cynically feed the worst instincts of their fearful and angry low-information political base". G Monbiot
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Don't take my word for it. Listen to what two former Republican ideologues, David Frum and Mike Lofgren, have been saying. Frum warns that "conservatives have built a whole alternative knowledge system, with its own facts, its own history, its own laws of economics". The result is a "shift to ever more extreme, ever more fantasy-based ideology" which has "ominous real-world consequences for American society".
Lofgren complains that "the crackpot outliers of two decades ago have become the vital center today". The Republican party, with its "prevailing anti-intellectualism and hostility to science" is appealing to what he calls the "low-information voter", or the "misinformation voter". While most office holders probably don't believe the "reactionary and paranoid claptrap" they peddle, "they cynically feed the worst instincts of their fearful and angry low-information political base". G Monbiot

The same applies to Liberals and Democrats ... they are all bloodsucking bastards.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Wkmac,

On point one --either me or Jewish Ben Stein --defending "Jesus" is a real stretch .

Point two ---Millions of people believing in some type or sort of "Intelligent design" certainly does describe why I believe the "ID" theory should be taught . Again was not defending "My GOD"

So again the Question begs: Where was I pushing ANY Religion or a particular "God" ????


P.S. Since you try to be always exact in your posts --The Cambian Period--has nothing to do with whether life existed before Cambian --the question revolves around what form of life pre and post --hard shell skeleton --soft spongy etc etc. Does some life after Cambian show no evidence of being evolved is the real point.
I have no problem with ID continuing to be taught in the same venue that it is currently taught: In church, temple, mosque, synagogue, or whatever religious building you choose. It's not science and it has no place in a science classroom.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I have no problem with ID continuing to be taught in the same venue that it is currently taught: In church, temple, mosque, synagogue, or whatever religious building you choose. It's not science and it has no place in a science classroom.

B-I-N-G-O!!
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
The same applies to Liberals and Democrats ... they are all bloodsucking bastards.

There are a lot of Libertarians and Republicans who resemble Frum and Lofgrens description. There might even be a few on this forum. As in really close, maybe even right here. Calling all "crackpot outliers"!! Time to come home to the GOP.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
I have no problem with ID continuing to be taught in the same venue that it is currently taught: In church, temple, mosque, synagogue, or whatever religious building you choose. It's not science and it has no place in a science classroom.
Creation science is every bit the scientific as any other explanation of how we all got to where we are.... Evolution the way it is currently taught has as much faith as proof itself
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
bbsam,

I.D. SYSEM ??? Fact there are millions and millions of people that believe there is a higher being or more intelligent being . God, Religion, Satan, Jesus, Allah, Buddist, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, etc,etc,etc--all different issues. I am sure we can find some people believe that the Intelligent Design for them are Martians.
If you don't like the word system, fill in the word that best fits. But the question still stands. Intelligent Design implies a "higher power", but most of the religions and theologies that have a creative influence also have a destructive one. Does this destructive force have a function in Intelligent Design? If so, what is it? If not, why not?
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Creation science is every bit the scientific as any other explanation of how we all got to where we are.... Evolution the way it is currently taught has as much faith as proof itself

Uh...no. "Creation Science" is religion disguised as science. Good try.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Wkmac,

On point one --either me or Jewish Ben Stein --defending "Jesus" is a real stretch .

Point two ---Millions of people believing in some type or sort of "Intelligent design" certainly does describe why I believe the "ID" theory should be taught . Again was not defending "My GOD"

So again the Question begs: Where was I pushing ANY Religion or a particular "God" ????


P.S. Since you try to be always exact in your posts --The Cambian Period--has nothing to do with whether life existed before Cambian --the question revolves around what form of life pre and post --hard shell skeleton --soft spongy etc etc. Does some life after Cambian show no evidence of being evolved is the real point.

As to the "Jesus" thing, I stated in an earlier post I was using that point as an absurd to address what I considered an absurd. But since you keep bringing it up, the majority of folk who make Intelligent Design an issue tend to be from a christian perspective. In regards to Ben Stein's movie, I'm certain when he considered the money making angle to his film, those of the christian faith had to be a big economic factor. I mean, there's a few million jews in America but the economic gain from even a majority of them coming to see the film still limits the bank account but pull in say 10% of all the folks who call themselves christian and now you're talking real money.

As to the question of you pushing god, when yeah I do think you are. For one, the major premise of Intelligent Design is that a higher power, god if you will created time, space, matter and thus all life as we know it. I see one of the major basis for what became intelligent design in being Thomas Aquinas who proposed that natural things act to achieve the best results and this shows intelligence and that intelligence must be god. William Paley in the early 1800's came up with the watchmaker analogy and thus the foundation for the god concept in the creative forces were set in stone. Where the god concept is required is that if the creation story never happened, no Adam and Eve, no original sin, no fall, there is no salvation needed for sin. No sacrifice is or was never needed and you could argue, game over. That still may not be true but I do understand the dilemma the fundamental christian faith would be in if the Genesis creation turns to myth.

As to the Cambrian article, you posed the earlier question and I found the article. I also in that post stipulated that even Darwin was concerned about his evolution idea in light of the Cambrian explosion and as time goes by this could shed light either way and bares watching. Seems to me however like bbsam commented after your post of confronting the college professor, I think you're just being a dick again!

Dr. Kenneth Miller, biologist and Roman Catholic on Intelligent Design and Evolution

 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Creation science is every bit the scientific as any other explanation of how we all got to where we are.... Evolution the way it is currently taught has as much faith as proof itself
No it's not. Creationism relies on a supernatural agent and once you start using the supernatural as part of the explanation, you've left science behind. If you want to teach your children creationism that's fine, but a science classroom is the wrong place for it.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
No it's not. Creationism relies on a supernatural agent and once you start using the supernatural as part of the explanation, you've left science behind. If you want to teach your children creationism that's fine, but a science classroom is the wrong place for it.
And the way evolution is taught now in our schools has our beginning in never never land. There is a reason for that, it cant. It should have to since it is being taught as fact but cant get past that hurdle of something coming from nothing. It simply has a "faith" that something not supernatural must have happened because here we are.

The only difference between the way that creation science differs with evolution is the starting point. Evolution offers no starting point at all except that everything "somehow" came from one original source. Creation sceince has a creator in the begining and that everything evolved from different "kinds" instead of one source. The sciences used is the same sciences.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Uh...no. "Creation Science" is religion disguised as science. Good try.
Not a try at all. The science used is the same. As I just stated, the starting point is the only difference. You obviously have never even really taken a real look at the science involved from a creation science point of view
 
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