Mr. Hoffa. Get Off Your Ass Right Now

Ricochet1a

Well-Known Member
The name of that publication says it all. Yea that's an unbiased publication. ;)

I'm no Socialist. My current career has me in a position in which you'd refer to me as a 'suit'....

Even Socialists can accurately report a true account - someone's political leanings doesn't automatically mean they are either being truthful or deceptive (depending on how you view their politics).

That article is DEAD ON with what I heard went on during that organizing drive. You weren't on this forum back then, but I was putting out multiple requests for someone who had first hand knowledge of what happened there to get on BC and give a full account - never happened.

This article strikes me as being a frank, truthful, account of what happened in that Ground terminal in Massachusetts. It lines up on multiple accounts from what I've heard motivated the IBT to pull the plug on the certification election. The account given by the Ground wage employee strikes me as being free of any substantial bias, accurate in his account of how FedEx reacted to the organizing drive, and how work conditions were altered once FedEx learned of the petition for a vote.
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
The name of that publication says it all. Yea that's an unbiased publication. ;)

I'm no Socialist. My current career has me in a position in which you'd refer to me as a 'suit'....

Even Socialists can accurately report a true account - someone's political leanings doesn't automatically mean they are either being truthful or deceptive (depending on how you view their politics).

That article is DEAD ON with what I heard went on during that organizing drive. You weren't on this forum back then, but I was putting out multiple requests for someone who had first hand knowledge of what happened there to get on BC and give a full account - never happened.

This article strikes me as being a frank, truthful, account of what happened in that Ground terminal in Massachusetts. It lines up on multiple accounts from what I've heard motivated the IBT to pull the plug on the certification election. The account given by the Ground wage employee strikes me as being free of any substantial bias, accurate in his account of how FedEx reacted to the organizing drive, and how work conditions were altered once FedEx learned of the petition for a vote.
All I'm saying is there is two sides to the story. But the article represents only one. I don't doubt the FedEx tactics one bit though.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
I think many of the people at Ground are the same as the ones who were with RPS and all were intent on a non-union workforce and would usebwhatever tactics necessary. Do you think Fedex is the one and only company to have a concerted effort to discourage organization?
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
It doesn't matter if it wasn't litigated. If the nlrb had found them to be contractors under the law there wouldn't be a vote.

why not? You seem to think contractors can't unionize. A quick google search will prove yourself wrong, should you care to face that fact.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
why not? You seem to think contractors can't unionize. A quick google search will prove yourself wrong, should you care to face that fact.[/QUOTE http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/business/23fedex.html?_r=1&

hmmm. I am wrong twice in one month. ;) my age is starting to dull my faculties. Seems Fedex really does hold the high cards. UPS is in serious troubl going forward if Ground is able to continue to improve some nagging quality issues.
 

Ricochet1a

Well-Known Member
To start off with, there is no current litigation which seriously jeopardizes the status of the Ground IC/ISP model.

However...

That DOESN'T mean that the model is absolutely compliant with all law concerning Independent Contractors.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15a.pdf

Go to page 7 of the above document.

Providing a short summary of the IRS interpretation of Common Law regarding Independent Contractors

There are three broad categories which determine degree of control and independence of the potential IC: Behavioral Control, Financial Control and Type of Relationship between the parties (employer and potential IC or employee).

Behavioral Control relates to how the 'employer' has the right to direct the work of the 'contracted' party (or employee). In general the following criteria are followed (the greater the control exerted by the 'employer', the greater the probability of declaring the contracted party to be an employee rather than an independent contractor):

1. When and where to do the work

2. What tools and equipment to use

3. What workers to hire or to assist to do the work

4. What work must be performed by a specific individual

5. What order or sequence to follow.

So applying the test to Ground 'contractors'... The IC's are told when and where to do the work, the IC's are told what equipment to use, the employer (Ground) have oversight on who the IC's can hire and assist in the carrying out of the work, there is no requirement that specific individuals do work, and finally the order and sequence of performing the work is determined by FedEx Ground.

So clearly under the Behavioral Control 'tests', the Ground 'contractors' are much closer to that of being in an 'employer-employee' relationship, rather than an employer-independent contractor relationship.

As the IRS document states: "The key consideration is whether the business (FedEx Ground in this case) has retained the right to control the details of a worker's performance (that would be the IC's/ISP's) or instead has given up that right".

Any fool can determine that in the case of Ground PUD contractors, that the right of control over the details of worker performance is SOLELY within the right of control of FedEx Ground - so behavioral control is that of an employer-employee relationship.

Financial Control...

Here things are a bit muddled. The key item against the use of the IC model in Ground is the "extent to which the worker (the potential IC) makes their services available to the relevant market". Here, the Ground 'contractors' are clearly not players - they don't make their services available to the 'relevant market'. In essence, they are NOT cartage agents, but tailored specifically to suit the needs of FedEx Ground, even down to the level of the individuals performing the work wearing FedEx uniforms.

Finally is the Type of Relationship between the parties.

1. There are written contracts (favoring IC status)

2. FedEx Ground DOESN'T provide any sort of 'employee type benefits' (favoring IC status)

3. The 'permanency' of the relationship clearly favors employer-employee status. There aren't a 'pool' of contractors bidding on each route every year, the contractors 'own' the route as long as they meet the requirements of FedEx Ground. (favors employer-employee status)

4. Finally, the extent to which the services performed by the worker (potential IC) is a 'regular aspect' of the company (FedEx Ground in this case). Here again, the employer-employee model is clearly supported. It isn't like FedEx Ground is contracting with a firm that specializes in installation of electrical equipment (electricians), the "contractors" are an INTEGRAL part of carrying out the normal, everyday business of the employer (in this case, FedEx Ground).

Therefore, from a Common Law perspective (and even the perspective of the IRS's own criteria), the use of the IC model within Ground is contrary to the intent of the law.

Now... this doesn't mean that some court is going to come right out and declare it in violation of the law and order a halt to the arrangement. FedEx is clearly using its legal resources to stay a whisker's thickness inside whatever criteria a court may apply in any given litigation. The problem is that there hasn't been a clear enough case brought to court which would establish a PREPONDERANCE of proof that FedEx is inappropriately using the IC provisions of Common Law.

I 'state', that knowing the 'intent' of FedEx in the matter, that the use of the IC model is clearly in violation of the IC provisions - but in court, the benefit of doubt always goes to the defendant (in this case FedEx Ground). Therefore, any potential litigation MUST be able to present a PREPONDERANCE of evidence that FedEx is in violation of the law.

But again, establishing preponderance is what attorneys do in court, and FedEx has retained some very good attorneys to argue their position.

So it appears that the 'weak spot' of FedEx is the IRS. If someone in the federal government would have the audacity to get the IRS to determine for tax purposes, that the IC's of Ground are really employees of Ground - the whole arrangement could come crashing down.

This all just goes to illustrate that our legal system results in getting the best justice that a party can afford. In this case, FedEx Ground is able to afford quite a lot to ensure their version of justice prevails.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Alot of truth to this regarding IC's. However, has Fedex changed enough with the ISP model to discourage further challenges? FedEx has not gone strictly an ISP model, but keeps that model ready to tweak to any state's specifications.
 

overflowed

Well-Known Member
To start off with, there is no current litigation which seriously jeopardizes the status of the Ground IC/ISP model.

However...

That DOESN'T mean that the model is absolutely compliant with all law concerning Independent Contractors.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15a.pdf

Go to page 7 of the above document.

Providing a short summary of the IRS interpretation of Common Law regarding Independent Contractors

There are three broad categories which determine degree of control and independence of the potential IC: Behavioral Control, Financial Control and Type of Relationship between the parties (employer and potential IC or employee).

Behavioral Control relates to how the 'employer' has the right to direct the work of the 'contracted' party (or employee). In general the following criteria are followed (the greater the control exerted by the 'employer', the greater the probability of declaring the contracted party to be an employee rather than an independent contractor):

1. When and where to do the work

2. What tools and equipment to use

3. What workers to hire or to assist to do the work

4. What work must be performed by a specific individual

5. What order or sequence to follow.

So applying the test to Ground 'contractors'... The IC's are told when and where to do the work, the IC's are told what equipment to use, the employer (Ground) have oversight on who the IC's can hire and assist in the carrying out of the work, there is no requirement that specific individuals do work, and finally the order and sequence of performing the work is determined by FedEx Ground.

So clearly under the Behavioral Control 'tests', the Ground 'contractors' are much closer to that of being in an 'employer-employee' relationship, rather than an employer-independent contractor relationship.

As the IRS document states: "The key consideration is whether the business (FedEx Ground in this case) has retained the right to control the details of a worker's performance (that would be the IC's/ISP's) or instead has given up that right".

Any fool can determine that in the case of Ground PUD contractors, that the right of control over the details of worker performance is SOLELY within the right of control of FedEx Ground - so behavioral control is that of an employer-employee relationship.

Financial Control...

Here things are a bit muddled. The key item against the use of the IC model in Ground is the "extent to which the worker (the potential IC) makes their services available to the relevant market". Here, the Ground 'contractors' are clearly not players - they don't make their services available to the 'relevant market'. In essence, they are NOT cartage agents, but tailored specifically to suit the needs of FedEx Ground, even down to the level of the individuals performing the work wearing FedEx uniforms.

Finally is the Type of Relationship between the parties.

1. There are written contracts (favoring IC status)

2. FedEx Ground DOESN'T provide any sort of 'employee type benefits' (favoring IC status)

3. The 'permanency' of the relationship clearly favors employer-employee status. There aren't a 'pool' of contractors bidding on each route every year, the contractors 'own' the route as long as they meet the requirements of FedEx Ground. (favors employer-employee status)

4. Finally, the extent to which the services performed by the worker (potential IC) is a 'regular aspect' of the company (FedEx Ground in this case). Here again, the employer-employee model is clearly supported. It isn't like FedEx Ground is contracting with a firm that specializes in installation of electrical equipment (electricians), the "contractors" are an INTEGRAL part of carrying out the normal, everyday business of the employer (in this case, FedEx Ground).

Therefore, from a Common Law perspective (and even the perspective of the IRS's own criteria), the use of the IC model within Ground is contrary to the intent of the law.

Now... this doesn't mean that some court is going to come right out and declare it in violation of the law and order a halt to the arrangement. FedEx is clearly using its legal resources to stay a whisker's thickness inside whatever criteria a court may apply in any given litigation. The problem is that there hasn't been a clear enough case brought to court which would establish a PREPONDERANCE of proof that FedEx is inappropriately using the IC provisions of Common Law.

I 'state', that knowing the 'intent' of FedEx in the matter, that the use of the IC model is clearly in violation of the IC provisions - but in court, the benefit of doubt always goes to the defendant (in this case FedEx Ground). Therefore, any potential litigation MUST be able to present a PREPONDERANCE of evidence that FedEx is in violation of the law.

But again, establishing preponderance is what attorneys do in court, and FedEx has retained some very good attorneys to argue their position.

So it appears that the 'weak spot' of FedEx is the IRS. If someone in the federal government would have the audacity to get the IRS to determine for tax purposes, that the IC's of Ground are really employees of Ground - the whole arrangement could come crashing down.

This all just goes to illustrate that our legal system results in getting the best justice that a party can afford. In this case, FedEx Ground is able to afford quite a lot to ensure their version of justice prevails.

very well stated.
 

Cactus

Just telling it like it is
Alot of truth to this regarding IC's. However, has Fedex changed enough with the ISP model to discourage further challenges? FedEx has not gone strictly an ISP model, but keeps that model ready to tweak to any state's specifications.

Yeah, as long as Fred's ready to grease the right politician$.
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member

If what the article says is true, FE sends managers to terminals rumored to be organizing.

Start some rumors. Made FE spend the money to send managers out to combat rumors. Keep crying wolf until they quit sending out union squashing teams.

That would be pretty cool.
It's not cool when you experience that and have to work in those conditions, but will be necessary if we have a serious effort to organize.
 

Ricochet1a

Well-Known Member
If what the article says is true, FE sends managers to terminals rumored to be organizing.

Start some rumors. Made FE spend the money to send managers out to combat rumors. Keep crying wolf until they quit sending out union squashing teams.

That would be pretty cool.

Of course they send their union hit team to locations where organizing has been 'detected'. Do you think they'd sit on their ass and let organizing go on without responding to it?

Express employees DON'T want to start waving the 'red flag' in front of management to get a reaction out of the hit team. They want to be quiet, do their jobs and distribute and send in rep cards WITHOUT causing a ruckus about it. Express will go to ANY length to squash any organizing attempt - especially at an isolated station.

The Couriers are going to have to stop behaving like a bunch of stray cats, and begin to act with some unity of purpose and accept that they cannot just go off and do things how they want as individuals - and expect ANY success in actually organizing Express. The past 3 weeks has illustrated to me that the Couriers simply aren't there yet, they all want the end goal of an organized Express, but they don't want to act with unity of purpose. In typical organizing, the potential union would be providing that unifying role - that is completely absent here.

And since this forum has the most pissed off, malcontented, angry, frustrated Couriers Express has to offer - and they still haven't actually followed through on wanting to actually WORK to get Express organized - it won't ever happen. Just more of the same, talk, talk, talk and no concerted action.
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
If what the article says is true, FE sends managers to terminals rumored to be organizing.

Start some rumors. Made FE spend the money to send managers out to combat rumors. Keep crying wolf until they quit sending out union squashing teams.

That would be pretty cool.

Of course they send their union hit team to locations where organizing has been 'detected'. Do you think they'd sit on their ass and let organizing go on without responding to it?

Express employees DON'T want to start waving the 'red flag' in front of management to get a reaction out of the hit team. They want to be quiet, do their jobs and distribute and send in rep cards WITHOUT causing a ruckus about it. Express will go to ANY length to squash any organizing attempt - especially at an isolated station.

The Couriers are going to have to stop behaving like a bunch of stray cats, and begin to act with some unity of purpose and accept that they cannot just go off and do things how they want as individuals - and expect ANY success in actually organizing Express. The past 3 weeks has illustrated to me that the Couriers simply aren't there yet, they all want the end goal of an organized Express, but they don't want to act with unity of purpose. In typical organizing, the potential union would be providing that unifying role - that is completely absent here.

And since this forum has the most pissed off, malcontented, angry, frustrated Couriers Express has to offer - and they still haven't actually followed through on wanting to actually WORK to get Express organized - it won't ever happen. Just more of the same, talk, talk, talk and no concerted action.
It takes time to undo the years of brainwashing bro. I have never worked at a place where the employees are so beaten down that they do not want to even whisper the word union. But things are changing and attitudes are changing. I have said it before it is going to take some time. Persistence and a willingness to stick it out to the end is what will bring a unionized FedEx to fruition.
 

Ricochet1a

Well-Known Member
It takes time to undo the years of brainwashing bro. I have never worked at a place where the employees are so beaten down that they do not want to even whisper the word union. But things are changing and attitudes are changing. I have said it before it is going to take some time. Persistence and a willingness to stick it out to the end is what will bring a unionized FedEx to fruition.

If Express were under NLRA rules - local organizing would work just fine. The RLA changes all of that.

Then to make it worse, the ONLY union that potentially could organize Express Couriers - has made a decision to cut and run; having made the decision that they could never hope to get 50% of Couriers to sign rep cards even if they were to put forth the significant resources to even try.

I put up the list of other unions almost 2 weeks ago (since everyone seems to be holding their noses at the prospect of IBT organizing)- absolutely NO posting regarding someone calling other unions. NOTHING. I at least expected a few posters to write that they did call a couple of unions and were told in so many words, "No thanks". Nothing, absolutely nothing.

If the Express Couriers want the benefits of being organized - the posters to this forum (whether you want to believe it or not, they are the 'leadership' of a potential grassroots movement), are going to have to do the work and not just sit back, post and lurk and hold out hope that someone else out there is going to do it for them. There is no one else out there, YOU are it.

From the private mail communication that has come into certain individuals here - there is no real indication that any real commitment by ALL the Express Couriers who post and lurk here to take action (getting out rep cards and attempting to establish 'network'), will ever occur. There is lots of sympathy, a FEW who are doing work in their stations, but a FEW stations with people getting out rep cards won't do a damn thing in the face of the RLA. It has to be a MASSIVE grassroots level push - something with the urgency of a tsunami sweeping across Express stations to even hope to succeed. That hasn't materialized.

There is only ONE slim chance of organizing Express Couriers - for the Couriers to develop a private network to establish organizers in as many stations as possible, then have those station level organizers get out rep cards and encourage their coworkers to get them sent in. All in the seemingly vain hope of getting the IBT to reconsider its position vis-a-vis Express Couriers and start to take over organizing and work with the station level organizers and get enough cards signed to get a petition to have a vote with the NLRB. I illustrated what would be needed in another thread - something with that level of urgency is the ONLY thing which will succeed. Small, uncoordinated local level attempts will just be quashed by the anti-union hit team should district management inform Memphis that they, "have a problem".

Memphis is well capable of sending out their hit team to deal with the occasional "flooded basement" (station with organizing activity). What they are not equipped to deal with is a tsunami sweeping across all stations nearly simultaneously. They can't handle that (I tried to illustrate that in my hypothetical narrative).

That is why if the Couriers are EVER to organize, they are going to have to commit to developing network, getting cards out, expanding network and accepting some level of organization upon themselves and not behave like a herd of cats. From the posting activity that has gone on in the past couple of weeks combined with the private mails that have gone around - 'it' isn't there and most likely never will be.

I had some hope that Fred's decision to not give you pay raises would snap you (in the plural) out of your fear and inaction and actually cause that tsunami to begin to form. Hasn't happened. At this point, I'm left wondering if there is ANYTHING which would snap the Couriers (the entire company pool) out of their collective inaction and create that tsunami. But to shift to another metaphor - I'm thinking that Fred is just too adroit in slowly cranking up the heat on that frog in the kettle. The frog will end up being cooked long before it realizes its time to jump out of the kettle.
 
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