Now what? Opt In / Opt Out

[IWorkAsDirected]

BTW all......... you don't get paid triple for the over 9.5 after you have already been paid the time and a half, you will get ANOTHER time and a half for all over 9.5 worked for the three days in the week. That makes it triple when you add the two time and a halfs together

 

[JonFrum]

Actually, I think there was at least a partial buyout. As I understand it, the legal withdrawal obligation was actually around $4 billion. The $6.1 billion was offered (most likely) to get the union on board during the contract negotiations. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

JustTired,

The early estimate of UPS' Withdrawal Liability was about $4 billion. Later it was calculated to be $6.1 billion. In addition, UPS restored the cuts that were made by Central States several years ago, by assuming the obligation to pay those benefits in the new pension plan. That's another $1.7 billion.

The US Taxpayer will pay $2.3 billion of the $6.1 billion when UPS deducts the "contribution" on its tax return.

 

[JonFrum]

You keep trying to dance around this issue. If CS collects 6.1 billion from ups this year then thats 6.1 billion CS did not have in its coffers before this year. Many trucking companies went out of business without ever paying "what was owed"

Tie,

I'd like to see a list of all the companies that went bankrupt, not just the trucking companies. The trucking sector may be the worst but it is just one sector among many.

First I'd cross off the list any companies that didn't have any Withdrawal Liability. They're blameless. Then I'd see how many companies paid off at least part of their Withdrawal Liability in bankruptcy proceedings, and I'd reduce their blame proportionally. Then I'd tally up how much Central States actually lost by trucking companies, and other companies, declaring bankruptcy.

By the way, it always seems odd to me to hear a UPSer faulting other trucking companies for going out of business. Isn't it UPS' policy to drive these competitors out of business? Doesn't UPS want everyone to ship with us and not them? Doesn't UPS want to keep all of its customers, and gain all of theirs? Hasn't UPS steadily expanded its coverage area and services, especially including freight, in order to keep our customers and steal away theirs? Why is it their fault that UPS crushed them?

 

[Channahon]

By the way, it always seems odd to me to hear a UPSer faulting other trucking companies for going out of business. Isn't it UPS' policy to drive these competitors out of business? Doesn't UPS want everyone to ship with us and not them? Doesn't UPS want to keep all of its customers, and gain all of theirs? Hasn't UPS steadily expanded its coverage area and services, especially including freight, in order to keep our customers and steal away theirs? Why is it their fault that UPS crushed them?

I started with UPS in 1978 in Chicago, and as far as I could tell the only companies delivering packages up to 50 lbs was UPS and the Post Office.

I don't see where UPS was competitive with trucking companies who went out of business in Central States. Most trucking companies were LTL or full loads, UPs was not doing that until UPS Hundredweight service and UPS bought out Overnite, aka, UPS Freight.

Now UPS has stayed competitive over the years enhancing services and buying other companies. That to me is not driving other trucking companies out of business. That to me is good business sense to serve a global economy.

Just my thoughts on this subject as I've seen UPS evolve over 28 years.

 

[JonFrum]

Here's a list of companies that went out of business drawn from just the LTL sector of the trucking industry. Lots of factors contributed to their downfall, but UPS played a role. UPS didn't take all their freight, but it did skim certain packages. And as UPS expanded its services levels and features and coverage areas and increased its size and weight limits, it took more and more packages. I assume UPS' wish was to take all the profitable packages and leave only the unprofitable ones.

TOP 50 LESS-THAN-TRUCKLOAD (LTL) CARRIERS IN 1979

Only the seven in Bold were still operating as of 4/1/2004 according to Timothy P. Lynch of the Motor Freight Carriers Association in testimony before Congress on April 29, 2004.

1. Roadway Express
2. Consolidated Freightways
3. Yellow Freight System (Yellow Transportation)
4. Ryder Truck Lines
5. McLean Trucking
6. PIE
7. Spector Freight System
8. Smith's Transfer
9. Transcon Lines
10. East Texas Motor Freight
11. Interstate Motor Freight
12. Overnite Transportation
13. Arkansas Best Freight (ABF Freight System)
14. American Freight System
15. Carolina Freight Carriers
16. hall Motor Transit
17. Mason & Dixon Lines
18. Lee Way Motor Freight
19. TIME-DC Inc.
20. Wilson Freight Co.
21. Preston Trucking Co.
22. IML Freight
23. Associated Truck Lines
24. Central Freight Lines
25. Jones Motor-Alleghany
26. Gateway Transportation
27. Bowman Transportation
28. Delta Lines
29. Garrett Freightlines
30. Branch Motor Express
31. Red Ball Motor Freight
32. Pilot Freight Carriers
33. Illinois-California Exp.
34. Pacific Motor Trucking
35. Central Transport
36. Brown Transport
37. St. Johnsbury Trucking
38. Commercial Lovelace
39. Gordons Transports
40. CW Transport
41. Johnson Motor Lines
42. System 99
43. Thurston Motor Lines
44. Watkins Motor Lines
45. Santa Fe Trail Transportation
46. Jones Truck Lines
47. Merchants Fast Motor Lines
48. Murphy Motor Freight
49. Maislin Transport
50. Motor Freight Express

 

[JonFrum]

I started with UPS in 1978 in Chicago, and as far as I could tell the only companies delivering packages up to 50 lbs was UPS and the Post Office.

REA Express had gone out of business by then.

 

[tieguy]

JustTired,

"Webcast of UPS Labor Contract - Thursday December 20, 2007"
After you register, you can listen to the presentation and also download a PDF file of the slides used.

Jon did you register with the ups site? but not brown cafe?

 

[tieguy]

Here's a list of companies that went out of business drawn from just the LTL sector of the trucking industry. Lots of factors contributed to their downfall, but UPS played a role. UPS didn't take all their freight, but it did skim certain packages.

Thats a new spin. Actually Frieght was much more protected back then. UPS could not handle and shipments over 100 pounds to one consignee and had to return all oversized packages that made it into our system.

And as UPS expanded its services levels and features and coverage areas and increased its size and weight limits, it took more and more packages. I assume UPS' wish was to take all the profitable packages and leave only the unprofitable ones.

TOP 50 LESS-THAN-TRUCKLOAD (LTL) CARRIERS IN 1979

Only the seven in Bold were still operating as of 4/1/2004 according to Timothy P. Lynch of the Motor Freight Carriers Association in testimony before Congress on April 29, 2004.

1. Roadway Express
2. Consolidated Freightways
3. Yellow Freight System (Yellow Transportation)
4. Ryder Truck Lines
5. McLean Trucking
6. PIE
7. Spector Freight System
8. Smith's Transfer
9. Transcon Lines
10. East Texas Motor Freight
11. Interstate Motor Freight
12. Overnite Transportation
13. Arkansas Best Freight (ABF Freight System)
14. American Freight System
15. Carolina Freight Carriers
16. hall Motor Transit
17. Mason & Dixon Lines
18. Lee Way Motor Freight
19. TIME-DC Inc.
20. Wilson Freight Co.
21. Preston Trucking Co.
22. IML Freight
23. Associated Truck Lines
24. Central Freight Lines
25. Jones Motor-Alleghany
26. Gateway Transportation
27. Bowman Transportation
28. Delta Lines
29. Garrett Freightlines
30. Branch Motor Express
31. Red Ball Motor Freight
32. Pilot Freight Carriers
33. Illinois-California Exp.
34. Pacific Motor Trucking
35. Central Transport
36. Brown Transport
37. St. Johnsbury Trucking
38. Commercial Lovelace
39. Gordons Transports
40. CW Transport
41. Johnson Motor Lines
42. System 99
43. Thurston Motor Lines
44. Watkins Motor Lines
45. Santa Fe Trail Transportation
46. Jones Truck Lines
47. Merchants Fast Motor Lines
48. Murphy Motor Freight
49. Maislin Transport
50. Motor Freight Express

nice list. how many paid their full obligations to the CS pension plan?

 

[tieguy]

Tie,


By the way, it always seems odd to me to hear a UPSer faulting other trucking companies for going out of business. Isn't it UPS' policy to drive these competitors out of business? Doesn't UPS want everyone to ship with us and not them? Doesn't UPS want to keep all of its customers, and gain all of theirs? Hasn't UPS steadily expanded its coverage area and services, especially including freight, in order to keep our customers and steal away theirs? Why is it their fault that UPS crushed them?

Jon pretty big stretch even for you to say UPS drove all those frieght companies out of business.

 

[satellitedriver]

Here's a list of companies that went out of business drawn from just the LTL sector of the trucking industry. Lots of factors contributed to their downfall, but UPS played a role. UPS didn't take all their freight, but it did skim certain packages. And as UPS expanded its services levels and features and coverage areas and increased its size and weight limits, it took more and more packages. I assume UPS' wish was to take all the profitable packages and leave only the unprofitable ones.

TOP 50 LESS-THAN-TRUCKLOAD (LTL) CARRIERS IN 1979

Only the seven in Bold were still operating as of 4/1/2004 according to Timothy P. Lynch of the Motor Freight Carriers Association in testimony before Congress on April 29, 2004.

1. Roadway Express
2. Consolidated Freightways
3. Yellow Freight System (Yellow Transportation)
4. Ryder Truck Lines
5. McLean Trucking
6. PIE
7. Spector Freight System
8. Smith's Transfer
9. Transcon Lines
10. East Texas Motor Freight
11. Interstate Motor Freight
12. Overnite Transportation
13. Arkansas Best Freight (ABF Freight System)
14. American Freight System
15. Carolina Freight Carriers
16. hall Motor Transit
17. Mason & Dixon Lines
18. Lee Way Motor Freight
19. TIME-DC Inc.
20. Wilson Freight Co.
21. Preston Trucking Co.
22. IML Freight
23. Associated Truck Lines
24. Central Freight Lines
25. Jones Motor-Alleghany
26. Gateway Transportation
27. Bowman Transportation
28. Delta Lines
29. Garrett Freightlines
30. Branch Motor Express
31. Red Ball Motor Freight
32. Pilot Freight Carriers
33. Illinois-California Exp.
34. Pacific Motor Trucking
35. Central Transport
36. Brown Transport
37. St. Johnsbury Trucking
38. Commercial Lovelace
39. Gordons Transports
40. CW Transport
41. Johnson Motor Lines
42. System 99
43. Thurston Motor Lines
44. Watkins Motor Lines
45. Santa Fe Trail Transportation
46. Jones Truck Lines
47. Merchants Fast Motor Lines
48. Murphy Motor Freight
49. Maislin Transport
50. Motor Freight Express

Cool,
By your count, we only have 7 left to go.
PAX

 

[JonFrum]

Jon pretty big stretch even for you to say UPS drove all those frieght companies out of business.

Tie, I'm not claiming that UPS actually drove those companies, and some others, out of business all by itself. There were other factors involved. But UPS' policy is to drive them out of business, if possible. (See SatelliteDriver's comment above, for example.) It's like a baseball pitcher who wants to pitch a "perfect game." He probably won't suceed in striking out every batter, but that is his intention.

Jon did you register with the ups site? but not brown cafe?

Yes. I'm registered on several sites because they have a policy that won't allow unregistered visitors to access their site's information. UPSersDotCom is like that, for example. BrownCafe makes almost all of its features available to The Great Unwashed, The Hoi Polloi, The Riff Raff, The Rabble Rousers, and yes, even to The Unregistered! And that's a good thing.

 

[BCFan]

BCFan,

Not sure if your swipe at me was intentional or inadvertent, but for the record, I pay $81 a month in dues to my Local. I've paid full-time dues and initiation fees ever since the Nixon Administration, even though I didn't go full-time until 1998.

As to Browncafe, I pay the same monthly dues that you and Trollguy, and everyone else pays: . Please don't feed the Troll, BC (not Being Careful.)

Dude dont get your panties in a wad I was merely helping out Tie on his definitions, not making a "swipe" at you.... I actually enjoy the useful posts you make and have no reason to assume you are anything but a dues paying member...... (now I see what Tie means about folks not following along these threads very closely) BC (not Bull Chit)

 

[JonFrum]

Dude dont get your panties in a wad I was merely helping out Tie on his definitions, not making a "swipe" at you.... I actually enjoy the useful posts you make and have no reason to assume you are anything but a dues paying member...... (now I see what Tie means about folks not following along these threads very closely) BC (not Bull Chit)

BCFan,

Tie calls me a "scab." He's been falsely calling me a "scab" and "anonymous" and other things for over a year. You quote Tie calling me a scab, and "correct" him by pointing out the correct word is "freerider," though you're not sure which is worse. I said I realize you're swipe at me might have been inadvertent and set the record straight.

All you had to do originally was delete my name from tie's "scab" post when you quoted it, but you didn't.

I think all this is silly, but unfortunately Tie doesn't, and every time someone like yourself gives him encouragement of any sort, it just feeds his inner troll.

Here's your original post for anyone who thinks I have trouble comprehending what I read.
http://www.browncafe.com/community/threads/now-what-opt-in-opt-out.124194/

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Our list still hasn't gone up. Is this a violation of the contract already? Some of our drivers have said that it doesn't matter because the new language isn't much different than the old. But then again...the guys that said that are on country routes that rarely get dispatched over 8.5 hours. Many of the remaining drivers run and gun all day for bonus and since that juices up management's numbers they rarely get dispatched over 9 hours anyway so why should they care. It seems that the only people that get screwed and need language like this are the ones that do the job correctly.