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rickyb

Well-Known Member
An interview with pope francis. jesus wasnt a capitalist.:


You told me some time ago that the precept, “Love your neighbour as thyself” had to change, given the dark times that we are going through, and become “more than thyself.” So you yearn for a society where equality dominates. This, as you know, is the programme of Marxist socialism and then of communism. Are you therefore thinking of a Marxist type of society?

It it has been said many times and my response has always been that, if anything, it is the communists who think like Christians. Christ spoke of a society where the poor, the weak and the marginalized have the right to decide. Not demagogues, not Barabbas, but the people, the poor, whether they have faith in a transcendent God or not. It is they who must help to achieve equality and freedom”. [emphasis added]
 

DriveInDriveOut

Inordinately Right
From Philip K. Dick's Blade Runner to the Matrix Trilogy, 2 millennia old gnosticism and its philosophy have played an influence. Seems the HBO series Westworld can now be added to that list. And not that the original Westworld wasn't!

HBO's Westworld is a Gnostic Parable
Westworld did not disappoint with it's first season.
One of my favorite new shows. HBO also hit a homerun with The Leftovers, but it hasn't gotten near as much publicity. On the Gnosticism theme, there's a scene in The Leftovers where a preacher quotes from the book of Thomas. The whole show leaves so much unanswered, which is great imo.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
The popes answer if as such would have been incomplete.

"Christ’s mission wasn’t to elevate our physical status, but to redeem mankind."

Was Jesus A Socialist, Capitalist, Or Something Else?

Christianity makes no sense, unless you're an idiot. You live, so you can then die and go to live with a loving God who killed you with some disease or accident. Then, of course, there's the part about your life being pre-destined by an omniscient being who follows your every action, yet supposedly provides you with free will.

If you're a Mormon, you believe in magic underwear and the home planet Kolob.

It's all crazy. Oh, and Jesus was born in what would be April now, and he was probably Middle Eastern, not white. There is so much more that makes no sense. Marx was right in that religion is the opiate of the masses. It provides you "answers" for that which is unanswerable, and therefore provides comfort to the mentally feeble.

You are welcome! Praise Jeebus.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Westworld did not disappoint with it's first season.
One of my favorite new shows. HBO also hit a homerun with The Leftovers, but it hasn't gotten near as much publicity. On the Gnosticism theme, there's a scene in The Leftovers where a preacher quotes from the book of Thomas. The whole show leaves so much unanswered, which is great imo.

Gospel of Thomas is a "must read" IMO regardless where you stand on theism. Easily done in less than an hour as the entire gospel is nothing but 114 sayings of Jesus. A lot of it is great stuff but a bit contrary to literalist orthodoxy.

As to the issue of the gnostic Demiurge (known as the half maker or imperfect creator) this idea first expressed in Platonism, but not in such negative context by the Platonic and the Neo Platonists, the gnostics of both Judaism and Christianity subscribe to the idea that the Old Testament god was an evil deity, in Judaism is given the name Yaltabaoth/Yaldabaoth and found in such texts as Gospel of Judas and the Nag Hammadi Apocryphon of John. Marconite Christians held to a view of the Old Testament god as an evil god, literally on the same parallel as what we think of and call Satan today. My own view is that the New Testament view of Satan may well be a kind of leftover influence of gnostic christainity but that "VERY DEEP" subject is best left for another time, but a time worth spending IMO.

Gnostics were a fascinating bunch and unlike their literalist brethren, gnostics were far more open minded and saw their texts not in such literal senses but in the forms of metaphor and allegory. Much more like the parables Jesus used to teach higher principles as opposed to dogmatic, to the letter absolutes. Gnosticism by many is thought to have died out once Constantinian Orthodoxy was made mandatory and enforced. My own feeling as with others is that gnosticism went underground, carried forth as mystery teaching through some form of past mystery schools and re-manifested by other means. Some of it came to the surface among jewish scholars who crafted the Zohar and Kabbalah but also among hermeticists who would come to re-emerge as humanity came out of the Dark Ages during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment period. Hermeticism is claimed to trace its origins to Hermes Trismegistus and by extension to the Egypt god of Knowledge Thoth.

At the same time, the most important library of Gnostic Christianity ever found was discovered at Nag Hammadi located in Egypt. My own suspicions of Gnosticism and Hermeticism being linked at the very least have some merit as both share the same source of origin and both may well have existed at the same time, albeit by different names. I suspect for example the great Alexandrian philosopher Hypatia may well have been a student of both what was hermeticism and the gnosticism of Valentinius that became Valentinianism that also began in Alexandria Egypt.

Speaking of Hypatia, she was murdered by Christian zealots driven by their zeal of defending the new emerging Christian orthodoxy and some argue that Hypatia's murder could well mark the beginning of the intellectual dark ages that would dominate Europe and near Asia for the next 1000 years. I also hold to this view.

It wasn't until hermetic and esoteric teaching in the 15th century CE began to leak out thanks mostly to daring free thinkers in Northern Italy, specifically Florence that the intellectual Dark Ages ended and the early enlightenment began to emerge.

As a free thinker and lover of free thought, I have real soft spot in my heart for those early esoteric and occultic Hermetic students, free thinkers in the extreme, who paved the way for the enlightenment philosophy that was to come. And without them, some of the best Sci-fi we have would not be possible at all. From Blade Runner, to They Live to The Matrix and now Westworld among so many others. From the early gnostics and hermeticists to our current enlightenment free thinkers and Sci-fi geeks, a long tradition on a straight line IMO, we owe a debt of gratitude.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Christianity makes no sense, unless you're an idiot. You live, so you can then die and go to live with a loving God who killed you with some disease or accident. Then, of course, there's the part about your life being pre-destined by an omniscient being who follows your every action, yet supposedly provides you with free will.

If you're a Mormon, you believe in magic underwear and the home planet Kolob.

It's all crazy. Oh, and Jesus was born in what would be April now, and he was probably Middle Eastern, not white. There is so much more that makes no sense. Marx was right in that religion is the opiate of the masses. It provides you "answers" for that which is unanswerable, and therefore provides comfort to the mentally feeble.

You are welcome! Praise Jeebus.

Most christians do little study of the deep history of their faith (to my own respect for their honesty, many even admit it too) they do little in the way of understanding source texts and the language written in and the meanings of those words as opposed to the english translations made. That on its own can be a world shaker.

Few do any level of contextual scholarship or for that matter any scholarship at all. Few even read the footnotes in their own bibles that note problematic texts, their origins and their place in the historical timeline. Start with Mark 16 if you dare which in most bibles is well footnoted. Now go read the same accounts in Matthew, Luke and John and note the specific details and then compare the 4.

But then like said christians, many casual critics are also equally guilty too. How many for example know about Mark 16 or the other gospel accounts of the same event? Why are there no birth accounts in Mark and John while the Matthew and Luke accounts of the nativity differ? Why does one gospel record the Sermon on the Mount and another gospel refers to the Sermon on the Plain?

Maybe in their own ways, some christians and some of their critics are idiots in their own right at the end of the day suffering from ignorance on a subject they have little knowledge of to speak on in the first place yet they make a point of ignorance to speak anyway!

As Dirty Harry rightly said in the closing scene of Magnum Force:

 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Most christians do little study of the deep history of their faith (to my own respect for their honesty, many even admit it too) they do little in the way of understanding source texts and the language written in and the meanings of those words as opposed to the english translations made. That on its own can be a world shaker.

Few do any level of contextual scholarship or for that matter any scholarship at all. Few even read the footnotes in their own bibles that note problematic texts, their origins and their place in the historical timeline. Start with Mark 16 if you dare which in most bibles is well footnoted. Now go read the same accounts in Matthew, Luke and John and note the specific details and then compare the 4.

But then like said christians, many casual critics are also equally guilty too. How many for example know about Mark 16 or the other gospel accounts of the same event? Why are there no birth accounts in Mark and John while the Matthew and Luke accounts of the nativity differ? Why does one gospel record the Sermon on the Mount and another gospel refers to the Sermon on the Plain?

Maybe in their own ways, some christians and some of their critics are idiots in their own right at the end of the day suffering from ignorance on a subject they have little knowledge of to speak on in the first place yet they make a point of ignorance to speak anyway!

As Dirty Harry rightly said in the closing scene of Magnum Force:


I know my limitations, but come on. There are so many contradictions and zero proof....Of anything.

As an agnostic, I would be quite happy to be proven wrong. It would be wonderful to have a loving God, but He doesn't help out much down here on Earth.

BTW, I love that movie. The first two are classics. Three through five are bad with the exception of a few great Callaghan lines.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I know my limitations, but come on. There are so many contradictions and zero proof....Of anything.

As an agnostic, I would be quite happy to be proven wrong. It would be wonderful to have a loving God, but He doesn't help out much down here on Earth.

BTW, I love that movie. The first two are classics. Three through five are bad with the exception of a few great Callaghan lines.

But you just admitted your own limitations but assert a full knowledge position with your conclusions and judgements.

BTW: You might look up what agnostic means before claiming to be one. Literally means "No Gnosis (knowledge)" and therefore doesn't draw a conclusion either way. You however seem to have made conclusions so agnostic you are not. and I doubt you have the knowledge to go the next step to an atheist nor do you seem the type who wants to put the effort into the subject. But if agnostic is your flavor and nothing wrong with that, look up the great 19th century Robert G. Ingersoll. His "Some Mistakes of Moses" is an excellent read.

Or listen if you prefer:

 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
This time of year we should "EAT, DRINK & BE MERRY or rather BE WITH MARY!" ;)

"This time of year I often hear people lamenting the lack of a “traditional” Christmas, so I thought I’d help out. Let’s forget about how Christmas was celebrated 100 years ago, let’s go back to the real traditions and celebration. So get out your wine glass, snuggle up and get naked with the one you love or someone you like, and prepare to release your inner Pagan! It’s Christmas time!"


A Traditional Christmas: Drunken, Subversive, and Pagan
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
As a Christian (and a horribly flawed individual) I can neither be upset with agnostics nor can I order will I try to convince them of their doubts. I just can't bring myself to understand the argument.

Why would anyone atheist or agnostic want to prove religion wrong? Is it the same self-centered ego driving them as drives the Christians who are out to "save the heathens" and "grow the armies of God"? Do you get points in scientific academia for shaking a Christian's faith or converting a Muslim to humanism? Seems silly on both sides to me.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
As a Christian (and a horribly flawed individual) I can neither be upset with agnostics nor can I order will I try to convince them of their doubts. I just can't bring myself to understand the argument.

Why would anyone atheist or agnostic want to prove religion wrong? Is it the same self-centered ego driving them as drives the Christians who are out to "save the heathens" and "grow the armies of God"? Do you get points in scientific academia for shaking a Christian's faith or converting a Muslim to humanism? Seems silly on both sides to me.

Show me some proof. I hate to see anyone waste time on fantasies that are largely a means for people to control others through shame, guilt, and slavish obedience.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Show me some proof. I hate to see anyone waste time on fantasies that are largely a means for people to control others through shame, guilt, and slavish obedience.
But I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

And really, I can think of worse ways for people to "waste time". (Personally I don't find it a waste of time.)

And if you are telling others to "show me some proof ", then who is attempting to control whom?
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
But I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

And really, I can think of worse ways for people to "waste time". (Personally I don't find it a waste of time.)

And if you are telling others to "show me some proof ", then who is attempting to control whom?

No attempt to control. Just questioning why anyone would waste time on that which does not exist. Religion is an excellent means of controlling those open to it, as in the claim of Marx that "religion is the opiate of the masses". It explains the inexplicable, and then man (not God) uses the religion in order to control through guilt, shame, and failure to obey dictates largely created by man, not God.

Consider our President-Elect, who controls people via a religion he obviously does not follow. By claiming to be a Christian, Trump got a lot of people to vote for him. Do you really think Trump has one ounce of faith in him? Look at The Ten Commandments, and how many Trump has broken. A "man of God"". Not. Ever.

Do whatever you want and worship however you want. I just wish people would think it through and see through the charlatans that use Christianity as a tool for control, money, or both.

Jesus would be disgusted by most "Christians", particularly the Ted Cruz kind.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Returning to the subject of gnostic Christianity and even esoteric Christianity, Arthur George's lecture at the Theosophical Society on the subject of Esoteric Christianity and the Garden of Eden Story.

As for the lecturer Arthur George, Who is Arthur George?

 
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