Time studies
- Thread starter aspenleaf
- Start date
tieguy
Banned
brown67
Well-Known Member
A time study is the refection of a perfect day not an average day. I had a time study a couple years ago with a guy and started asking him what I got credit for and what I didn't get credit for. After talking for a few minutes I said, "A time study is a perfect day not an average day, right?" Wouldn't answer me or talk to to much the rest of the day. We have so many things we do during a day we don't get credit for. If I have a perfect load and none of my customers hold me up I can run scratch, but those days are very rare. I'm usually .35 to .75 over everyday.
the per pkg allowance was reduced1 yr ago when they changed the time in the fall to dst or whatever the heck its called. I dont know why they have to take a way daylight, I need all I can get.
I went from scratch to an hour or more over. I thought maybe when we sprang ahead, Id get it back...simple thinker here.
I also went to a 1000 instead of the 800 I had been in.
So I know there were many factors that were implemented, and taken away that day. As it was not only me who about fell over, when we looked at the reports. That is when the big bone began.
I never have had a problem with working hard.
I never have a problem with big days.
But I have a problem when I work my a** into the ground to get in by air time, and the next day it says I was under, and over, and they want to know what happened out on my route. Nothing happened that I didnt overcome.
Its not a fair days work for a fair days pay, when it takes you 10 to deliver what we have to now to appease some number troll. Yes we get paid well but the satisfaction is gone.
And for me satisfaction used to be a big part of why I loved my job.
Thats gone now, as no one is ever happy that you made all the deliveries, didnt get shot, bit, broke, crashed, or died from heat, or cold exposure.
They just want to know why you cant do it faster. But dont tear up the equipment, or get hurt, or deliver between 12 and 100 or after 5 to commercial. Dont pee off the customers when they dont have time to print out a check and have the Pope Ok it. Because you gotta go.
I know I am 1/2 hr behind when I leave the building, catch up, yeah right when you run air til 1030, and not another piece coz youve got air from 3 rts. Coz they are cut.
So while I used to love the numbers, when they were fair. They are not now, and I havent changed a thing. Except the love I used to have for the job.
And we are not even on PAS yet.
I went from scratch to an hour or more over. I thought maybe when we sprang ahead, Id get it back...simple thinker here.
I also went to a 1000 instead of the 800 I had been in.
So I know there were many factors that were implemented, and taken away that day. As it was not only me who about fell over, when we looked at the reports. That is when the big bone began.
I never have had a problem with working hard.
I never have a problem with big days.
But I have a problem when I work my a** into the ground to get in by air time, and the next day it says I was under, and over, and they want to know what happened out on my route. Nothing happened that I didnt overcome.
Its not a fair days work for a fair days pay, when it takes you 10 to deliver what we have to now to appease some number troll. Yes we get paid well but the satisfaction is gone.
And for me satisfaction used to be a big part of why I loved my job.
Thats gone now, as no one is ever happy that you made all the deliveries, didnt get shot, bit, broke, crashed, or died from heat, or cold exposure.
They just want to know why you cant do it faster. But dont tear up the equipment, or get hurt, or deliver between 12 and 100 or after 5 to commercial. Dont pee off the customers when they dont have time to print out a check and have the Pope Ok it. Because you gotta go.
I know I am 1/2 hr behind when I leave the building, catch up, yeah right when you run air til 1030, and not another piece coz youve got air from 3 rts. Coz they are cut.
So while I used to love the numbers, when they were fair. They are not now, and I havent changed a thing. Except the love I used to have for the job.
And we are not even on PAS yet.
rapidrandall
slow but sure
No time studies in my center for the last 15 years, although we are scheduled for one in 2008.
For 15 years I was always between half hour and an hour overallowed. With the pas system now installed and re-looping done I am now magically half hour to three quarters of an hour early.
I must now be totally focused on my job and really want to get home, Right Tieguy?
When the package allowance was reduced last year it was IMO to stop from paying as much bonus to the runners. Our center voted out bonus about 12 years ago, so it doesn't affect me.
An honest days work for an honest days pay. We get payed by the hour and when you get more overtime than you want, grieve it and keep grieving it till your hours are acceptable. The system does work if you have the guts to stand up for your contractural rights and are willing to have them do performance rides. If you are working hard (totally focused) and doing nothing wrong, don't worry about the rides. They will tire of riding and you will still be parceling.
Remember, the glass is half full and not half empty.
Regards,
Rapid
For 15 years I was always between half hour and an hour overallowed. With the pas system now installed and re-looping done I am now magically half hour to three quarters of an hour early.
I must now be totally focused on my job and really want to get home, Right Tieguy?
When the package allowance was reduced last year it was IMO to stop from paying as much bonus to the runners. Our center voted out bonus about 12 years ago, so it doesn't affect me.
An honest days work for an honest days pay. We get payed by the hour and when you get more overtime than you want, grieve it and keep grieving it till your hours are acceptable. The system does work if you have the guts to stand up for your contractural rights and are willing to have them do performance rides. If you are working hard (totally focused) and doing nothing wrong, don't worry about the rides. They will tire of riding and you will still be parceling.
Remember, the glass is half full and not half empty.
Regards,
Rapid
1 PIECE A SH--!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!beentheredonethat
Well-Known Member
Tooner, I asked one of my buddies who used to do time studies, granted it was a long time ago, and he wasn't 100% sure, but he was heavily leaning toward a pkg car size not be an effect. If there was one, it would have been tiny. I'm 100% positive that if your timecard for the day showed you were in a P5, then it was corrected to a P10 the next day, the allowance for that day would not change at all. The only way the pkg car size could affect the allowance is that utilizing a rear door would give a higher allowance on the per stop allowance of the measurement. So a 24ft van would have had all or should have all the stops as a rear door and that would have increased the stop allowance. But like I said, when you turn in your timecard, the system doesn't look at the vehicle size.
beentheredonethat
Well-Known Member
Tie, I think the problem people have is that there is always one route out there that people point to and they are right in saying it can't be scratched. Some are, I know that we studied a Mall in the district a couple of times. Each time, the study came up the same for the allowance and the driver just couldn't make the allowed time, even though his methods were good. Keep in mind, the study uses an avg of 5 walk classifications. A walk classification is basically how far did the driver walk, ie (real short distance, short distance, medium etc etc) there's actually a definition of x ft - y ft but I don't recall off the top. Often a very long walk in the mall is way farther then the avg long walk and the driver doesn't get credit for it. Also, for all those walks there is a different allowance for being inside a building or outside. With a mall the inside walk is even slower usually for a driver, due to avoiding all the shoppers. However, just like that route really can't be scratched by the methods, the other 90% plus of the routes can be if the measurement is recent and performed correctly. If you have a measurement more then 4-5 years old which most are, then it's very possible that the study is not relevent anymore due to the changing conditions in the area. New houses built with longer or shorter driveways, office buildings with more or less floors then what was there etc etc.
beentheredonethat
Well-Known Member
I think the biggest problem is the ctr mgr and on roads are too busy doing whatever the flavor of the month is by the operations mgr or the IE mgr. If you gave the ctr mgr more control, I think the majority of them would run a better ctr.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Been there
Come on man! Commit to something. I know for a fact that if they gave the center managers free reign to run their centers, there would be 0 LIB, no missed, production would be at an all time high. But there would also be an admission by IE that they have skewed the allowances.
As for the walk allowances. there are several different distances covered by the walk. IF you go past the longest one, I think it is right about 150 steps one way, then any step you take past that does not count. It could have changed, but that is what I remember being discussed. So someone delivering a large mall would have a lot of dificulty running scratch.
d
Come on man! Commit to something. I know for a fact that if they gave the center managers free reign to run their centers, there would be 0 LIB, no missed, production would be at an all time high. But there would also be an admission by IE that they have skewed the allowances.
As for the walk allowances. there are several different distances covered by the walk. IF you go past the longest one, I think it is right about 150 steps one way, then any step you take past that does not count. It could have changed, but that is what I remember being discussed. So someone delivering a large mall would have a lot of dificulty running scratch.
d
beentheredonethat
Well-Known Member
Danny, here's where we are a little different. If I have no concrete proof, then I'll say what I think will occur. I won't say it will happen, if I can't prove it. In this case, I don't have proof, I have my conjecture based on almost 20 years with UPS. I do know that there are some ctr mgrs out there who didn't get promoted on talent, if they didn't do what their boss told them, they would just be spinning like crazy in the ctr. What you were saying about the walk is similar to what I said. You are right there is an upper bound for the longest walk. Not sure what it is, but a real long walk wouldn't get full credit. Again for the measurement it's an issue that malls like I mentioned are the exception to the rule, not proof that the studies are invalid. The center mgrs that I know who have malls, know that the allowance is a measuring stick and if .75 over is consistently what the driver demonstrates as best demonstrated avg, then they treated that as the driver scratching it. (Granted there were days when the driver in the ctr ran .4 over or .3 etc and the ctr mgr treated it as pd under.) This isn't a bonus center, by the way.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
That is also why I have repeatedly stated that for all its faults, the time study is a valid tool for comparing one day to the next. And while I would think that most managers treat the over under issue like you stated, most dont.
In the average day, if you run .75 over, and good days, you can run only .4 over but on bad days, its more like 1.5 hours, then scratch should be .75 over. Why they cant adjust the numbers to reflect reality is beyond me. I know many drivers that have become so frustrated that they always show being beat by the clock, that they dont care anymore. IT never changes. You know you did a good job, your sup and managers know you did a good job, but because IE says you got beat .75, you get beat .75.
To me it seems counter productive to have the drivers demoralized by standards that are unrealistic.
Just my view.
As to the center managers being able to run the show doing better, we had a short time where management was top down, instead of bottom up. IT allowed even the drivers some flexibility to make decisions on their own concerning issues with the customer. And the center manager even greater flexibility. During that period, service was at an all time high, our center noted a large net increase in pickup volume, all the numbers showed we were making great progress on the service front, and on the bottom line.
Our loads got in early, we left at 8-8:15, most drivers were off the clock by 6, many by 5:15. Like I said, even the bottom line had improved. Was it easy? Nope. It was a hard road for the center manager but because he had the support from the division and district, things got done. Instead of what we get now, all sorts of excuses for why things cant get done.
So yes, I know there are some where for what ever reason a center manager in total control might not work. But I have seen first hand that it can. And it was GOOOOOOD!
d
In the average day, if you run .75 over, and good days, you can run only .4 over but on bad days, its more like 1.5 hours, then scratch should be .75 over. Why they cant adjust the numbers to reflect reality is beyond me. I know many drivers that have become so frustrated that they always show being beat by the clock, that they dont care anymore. IT never changes. You know you did a good job, your sup and managers know you did a good job, but because IE says you got beat .75, you get beat .75.
To me it seems counter productive to have the drivers demoralized by standards that are unrealistic.
Just my view.
As to the center managers being able to run the show doing better, we had a short time where management was top down, instead of bottom up. IT allowed even the drivers some flexibility to make decisions on their own concerning issues with the customer. And the center manager even greater flexibility. During that period, service was at an all time high, our center noted a large net increase in pickup volume, all the numbers showed we were making great progress on the service front, and on the bottom line.
Our loads got in early, we left at 8-8:15, most drivers were off the clock by 6, many by 5:15. Like I said, even the bottom line had improved. Was it easy? Nope. It was a hard road for the center manager but because he had the support from the division and district, things got done. Instead of what we get now, all sorts of excuses for why things cant get done.
So yes, I know there are some where for what ever reason a center manager in total control might not work. But I have seen first hand that it can. And it was GOOOOOOD!
d
Last edited:
ducky13swing
Active Member
Back to the original message about time studies. I have seen in our building that our wonderful IE department is in a world of their own. I am speaking from a hub perspective.
Our IE department has recently seen a turnover rate that I have never heard of at UPS. The manager quit along with several supervisors. Now we have people who have no experience with UPS, who were hired off the street because they have degrees. They are the ones who are in charge of getting sort charts correct, planning how we should operate, and a variety of other things (unkonwn to those in the real UPS.) They have not "grown up with UPS" and frankly do not have a clue. Then they report to the higher ups that the people in the hubs are not doing the job.
Well, in my opionion, they can take the IE department and send them to another business. They walk around in their suit and tie and point out things that are wrong with the operation, but cannot offer any advice to fix it, other than tell them to do the job. They do not account for the fatigue factor, the human factor, the other factors beyond our control, the volume availabitly factor, the new hire factor, or anything else. If it works on paper, then dog gone it, it should work in practice. They also project the volume to be processed every day, and get mad when production numbers do not match their plan. Well, most of the time their planned volume is off by 3000 to 4000 pieces per night either higher or lower. How can you plan to run an operation when 1/4 of your planned volume does not appear. You plan staffing on their volume projections and either way you are screwed. Not only that, but they do not take into consideration that nearly everyday, half of the feeder arrivals are late, and atleast 1 of the aircraft are late, so you can be clean throughout the first half of the night. People standing around ready to go home, then you get freakin hammered and you pull late because everything hits at one time.
Same goes for the time studies. You are planned to deliver a set number of stops per hour, but they don't take into consideration other drivers, on road situations that you cannot avoid, or even bulk stops, which is technically one stop but could have 20 to 30 packages or more (still one stop).
IE needs to go back and make sure the charts are correct, put the drop boxes where they need to be, and stop bothering the workers. There are some drivers and hub employees who may be playing the system, but it seems that IE only concentrates on the good ones who do the job and do not need time studies done on them.
It may seem that I am bashing IE, but they really need to get in touch with the real UPS.
Our IE department has recently seen a turnover rate that I have never heard of at UPS. The manager quit along with several supervisors. Now we have people who have no experience with UPS, who were hired off the street because they have degrees. They are the ones who are in charge of getting sort charts correct, planning how we should operate, and a variety of other things (unkonwn to those in the real UPS.) They have not "grown up with UPS" and frankly do not have a clue. Then they report to the higher ups that the people in the hubs are not doing the job.
Well, in my opionion, they can take the IE department and send them to another business. They walk around in their suit and tie and point out things that are wrong with the operation, but cannot offer any advice to fix it, other than tell them to do the job. They do not account for the fatigue factor, the human factor, the other factors beyond our control, the volume availabitly factor, the new hire factor, or anything else. If it works on paper, then dog gone it, it should work in practice. They also project the volume to be processed every day, and get mad when production numbers do not match their plan. Well, most of the time their planned volume is off by 3000 to 4000 pieces per night either higher or lower. How can you plan to run an operation when 1/4 of your planned volume does not appear. You plan staffing on their volume projections and either way you are screwed. Not only that, but they do not take into consideration that nearly everyday, half of the feeder arrivals are late, and atleast 1 of the aircraft are late, so you can be clean throughout the first half of the night. People standing around ready to go home, then you get freakin hammered and you pull late because everything hits at one time.
Same goes for the time studies. You are planned to deliver a set number of stops per hour, but they don't take into consideration other drivers, on road situations that you cannot avoid, or even bulk stops, which is technically one stop but could have 20 to 30 packages or more (still one stop).
IE needs to go back and make sure the charts are correct, put the drop boxes where they need to be, and stop bothering the workers. There are some drivers and hub employees who may be playing the system, but it seems that IE only concentrates on the good ones who do the job and do not need time studies done on them.
It may seem that I am bashing IE, but they really need to get in touch with the real UPS.
To me it seems counter productive to have the drivers demoralized by standards that are unrealistic.
Just my view.
And Mine, I am one of those who used to run "scratch" and now I cant. I cant help what the numbers say, they are wrong. And since you only get in the graces of management if there is a - in front of your name, then im in the bad boy club. I still care, but I cant beat it, and I know I beat it. but the harder I work, the later I am.
The more pkgs I deliver, the behinder I get. Because I am being punished by volume when it is actually a reward, Ups is getting what they desire, more volume.
But they want the same sporh, whether you have one pkg per stop or 50, it dont work that way boys and girls, do the math!!
Put down you pencils for a moment and lay 1 on the table, then bend down and pick another out of your drawer, now do that 40 or 50 times, call it a stop, make a pile, call each one a stop. and see if you can do it in the same amount of time as you can lay one there. If you cant, then you will start to see, neither can we!!
I do not have the attitude I used to. I was the most devoted ups person in the planet.
Now I walk in an office to hang up my board, and I hear my sup say, "you need to learn a new route", I said "what", and he said, "oh Im just thinking out loud"
Well you all know what I felt like saying, and saying I was just thinking out loud but I would get fired for it.
Just my view.
And Mine, I am one of those who used to run "scratch" and now I cant. I cant help what the numbers say, they are wrong. And since you only get in the graces of management if there is a - in front of your name, then im in the bad boy club. I still care, but I cant beat it, and I know I beat it. but the harder I work, the later I am.
The more pkgs I deliver, the behinder I get. Because I am being punished by volume when it is actually a reward, Ups is getting what they desire, more volume.
But they want the same sporh, whether you have one pkg per stop or 50, it dont work that way boys and girls, do the math!!
Put down you pencils for a moment and lay 1 on the table, then bend down and pick another out of your drawer, now do that 40 or 50 times, call it a stop, make a pile, call each one a stop. and see if you can do it in the same amount of time as you can lay one there. If you cant, then you will start to see, neither can we!!
I do not have the attitude I used to. I was the most devoted ups person in the planet.
Now I walk in an office to hang up my board, and I hear my sup say, "you need to learn a new route", I said "what", and he said, "oh Im just thinking out loud"
Well you all know what I felt like saying, and saying I was just thinking out loud but I would get fired for it.
rod
Retired 22 years
Oh yes "Time Studies" Those were the good ol days. You haven't lived until someone runs a stopwatch on you while you are taking a piss. They would be nice enough to not go in the bathroom with you but would still wait outside the door with the clock running. I once asked a female timer what her boyfriend thought about her riding around with a strange guy all day and timing him while he took a piss. Can you believe she got all huffy and said "well we have to account for every second of the day"
tieguy
Banned
30andout
Well-Known Member
Oh yes "Time Studies" Those were the good ol days. You haven't lived until someone runs a stopwatch on you while you are taking a piss. They would be nice enough to not go in the bathroom with you but would still wait outside the door with the clock running. I once asked a female timer what her boyfriend thought about her riding around with a strange guy all day and timing him while he took a piss. Can you believe she got all huffy and said "well we have to account for every second of the day"[/quoteI wonder how she accounted for the time it took her to tinkle, I'm sure she couldn't hold it all day.
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