E
egclimb3
Guest
at some point. prob got dumped early. I heard some fedex guy sued for religous belief's and they can wear em now. dont mind wearing the uniform but telling us what our faces are gonna look like seems wrong.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
M
michael
Guest
egclimb3:
You have rights...
You have the right to not agree with the rules you agreed to when you got the job.
You have the right to quit.
You have the right to find a job somewhere else.
You have the right to go there.
Good Luck.
You have rights...
You have the right to not agree with the rules you agreed to when you got the job.
You have the right to quit.
You have the right to find a job somewhere else.
You have the right to go there.
Good Luck.
U
upsace
Guest
Michael - great reply.
I don't know why some employees feel that they are being held captive at UPS. There are lots of other jobs out there where a beard or goatee would be welcome.
UPS is not trying to tell them what their faces are gonna look like, only what UPS standards are for those who want the job.
Any company has the right to demand that the employees it pays to do a job while representing that company meet the company's appearance standards.
I don't know why some employees feel that they are being held captive at UPS. There are lots of other jobs out there where a beard or goatee would be welcome.
UPS is not trying to tell them what their faces are gonna look like, only what UPS standards are for those who want the job.
Any company has the right to demand that the employees it pays to do a job while representing that company meet the company's appearance standards.
E
egclimb3
Guest
roger and michael must wear ties, you two are all defensive. I have been at ups 15 years. I just asked a simple question, since I just finished my final 16th stage of chemo and my hair and eyebrows are gone but my beard seems to still grow. you two can kiss my ass. you two sound like center managers
M
michael
Guest
egclimb3:
My best wishes go out to you with your recovery. I will have a good thought for you.
You sound like a strong willed individual and I am sure you will have no trouble making a full and successful recovery.
More to your point. As I am sympathetic to your situation, you too, must appreciate the unfortunate reality of this matter. It is sad to say that if you were allowed to have facial hair (even though we know your extreme circumstances) there would be others that would take advantage of the situation. By that I mean some (albeit a small number) will claim to have some type of medical condition (probably no where near what you are going through) and want to have facial hair. I am not suggesting that everyone will come up with this scenario to take advantage, nor that there may be some other legitimate cases, but there will be a few that will try the situation and unfortunately use the phrase you let him/her do it whats wrong with me? I have been there and done that. I am speaking from experience and am not just trying to blow smoke up your ass.
When trying to accommodate a special situation and extend some sense of sensitivity to an individual, your peers have attempted to exploit the situation. Sad, but true. That is why it sometimes seems that management is heartless. Perhaps where some management people fail is not sitting down with an individual and explaining the why or why not of the situation. You may not agree with the decision, but maybe you will understand a little better how and why the decision was made.
If we seem defensive to you it may be due to all the years of trying to deal with situations similar to yours (most not quite as serious) trying to do the right thing and getting burnt in the process. Do not misunderstand what I am saying; if one chooses to wear a tie, it comes with the territory. A job in management means making decisions. Sometimes a management person makes good ones and sometimes-bad ones. There are good and bad in every profession, as you well know. A little more understanding on both sides would make life a lot easier, dont you agree? I guess its a tough thing to ask for when common sense is at an all time low in this world where we live.
Michael
My best wishes go out to you with your recovery. I will have a good thought for you.
You sound like a strong willed individual and I am sure you will have no trouble making a full and successful recovery.
More to your point. As I am sympathetic to your situation, you too, must appreciate the unfortunate reality of this matter. It is sad to say that if you were allowed to have facial hair (even though we know your extreme circumstances) there would be others that would take advantage of the situation. By that I mean some (albeit a small number) will claim to have some type of medical condition (probably no where near what you are going through) and want to have facial hair. I am not suggesting that everyone will come up with this scenario to take advantage, nor that there may be some other legitimate cases, but there will be a few that will try the situation and unfortunately use the phrase you let him/her do it whats wrong with me? I have been there and done that. I am speaking from experience and am not just trying to blow smoke up your ass.
When trying to accommodate a special situation and extend some sense of sensitivity to an individual, your peers have attempted to exploit the situation. Sad, but true. That is why it sometimes seems that management is heartless. Perhaps where some management people fail is not sitting down with an individual and explaining the why or why not of the situation. You may not agree with the decision, but maybe you will understand a little better how and why the decision was made.
If we seem defensive to you it may be due to all the years of trying to deal with situations similar to yours (most not quite as serious) trying to do the right thing and getting burnt in the process. Do not misunderstand what I am saying; if one chooses to wear a tie, it comes with the territory. A job in management means making decisions. Sometimes a management person makes good ones and sometimes-bad ones. There are good and bad in every profession, as you well know. A little more understanding on both sides would make life a lot easier, dont you agree? I guess its a tough thing to ask for when common sense is at an all time low in this world where we live.
Michael
S
smlsrtgrl
Guest
What exactly is wrong with asking and trying to be allowed to wear facial hair of some type. It all starts some where, doesn't it. I know shorts were not always allowed , but as we all know they are part of old brown uniform today. Nothing wrong with trying.
And egclimb3 best wishes to you with your treatments. I know it's hard but keep up the fight.
And egclimb3 best wishes to you with your treatments. I know it's hard but keep up the fight.
M
michael
Guest
Smlsrtgrl;
Absolutely nothing wrong with asking or trying to make it happen. I agree with you when you say, it all starts somewhere you are 100% correct. If there is some way to control this and make the rules consistent for everyone, hell, it might even work. I wonder how and if that could be done though. I happen to be a proponent of facial hair, I have it myself. (I do not work at UPS anymore)
Remember what the company went through with the standards for hair? If you have been around long enough you will remember how many arguments and disagreements came over the length of the hair, then the female worker came into being a more prominent figure and another challenge was faced.
At first I believe the rule was stated that the hair could not be over the collar, then someone challenged that and tried to circumvent the well meaning of the rule by having their hair stand straight up (at a very long length) and say Its not over my collar. Technically they were correct, the rule was then amended to include the phrase that the hair must be groomed in a business like manner. Then that brought another challenge to the forefront. What is the meaning of business like what it may mean to one person, may not be the same to another, also, what is business like for the female worker may not be business like for her male co-worker. You see the problem with trying to apply the rules equally? While sometimes a management person has no choice but to try and make what is good for one is good for all, they sometimes get caught in the middle. When they try applying the rules fairly to everyone they seem cold and heartless. If management tries to bend the rules a little and make an exception, your fellow teamsters will scream discrimination of one sort or another. It only takes one person to put those wheels in motion and as unfair as it seems to the majority, it will become a technical issue and more than likely (for the time being) be upheld. I have seen this happen on more than one occasion and been a part of it on several occasions as well.
On a more positive note, it has been pointed out to me in the past that the company has faced many challenges and overcome them by working together and there will be many more in the future to be faced. Lets face it; this company has overcome far tougher challenges than this one, and made it through. The challenges will continue to come before you and the company, if everyone keeps a level head and uses their common sense, a common ground solution will be reached that is good for all involved.
Michael
Absolutely nothing wrong with asking or trying to make it happen. I agree with you when you say, it all starts somewhere you are 100% correct. If there is some way to control this and make the rules consistent for everyone, hell, it might even work. I wonder how and if that could be done though. I happen to be a proponent of facial hair, I have it myself. (I do not work at UPS anymore)
Remember what the company went through with the standards for hair? If you have been around long enough you will remember how many arguments and disagreements came over the length of the hair, then the female worker came into being a more prominent figure and another challenge was faced.
At first I believe the rule was stated that the hair could not be over the collar, then someone challenged that and tried to circumvent the well meaning of the rule by having their hair stand straight up (at a very long length) and say Its not over my collar. Technically they were correct, the rule was then amended to include the phrase that the hair must be groomed in a business like manner. Then that brought another challenge to the forefront. What is the meaning of business like what it may mean to one person, may not be the same to another, also, what is business like for the female worker may not be business like for her male co-worker. You see the problem with trying to apply the rules equally? While sometimes a management person has no choice but to try and make what is good for one is good for all, they sometimes get caught in the middle. When they try applying the rules fairly to everyone they seem cold and heartless. If management tries to bend the rules a little and make an exception, your fellow teamsters will scream discrimination of one sort or another. It only takes one person to put those wheels in motion and as unfair as it seems to the majority, it will become a technical issue and more than likely (for the time being) be upheld. I have seen this happen on more than one occasion and been a part of it on several occasions as well.
On a more positive note, it has been pointed out to me in the past that the company has faced many challenges and overcome them by working together and there will be many more in the future to be faced. Lets face it; this company has overcome far tougher challenges than this one, and made it through. The challenges will continue to come before you and the company, if everyone keeps a level head and uses their common sense, a common ground solution will be reached that is good for all involved.
Michael
L
lr1937
Guest
The ups appearance guidlines are not that difficult to understand. We service all kinds of people and try to have appereance standards that are acceptable to all of the people we serve. It is not designed to keep any one in line. It is designed to satisfy our customers and the general public. Once you make exceptions for facial hair or anything else you a subject to everyones appearance standards. Why is it so difficult?
M
michael
Guest
lr1937,
In a word I think its called "translation". Although its seems as if it should be simple, I have learned that nothing is ever simple. There always seems to be some point that is overlooked, some area that was not addressed. In some cases, legitimate areas of concern.
I know that we sometimes tend to see only our side of the matter, and say that this is a simple and straightforward matter, but often there are other things that come into play that we never thought of. I am not suggesting that the rules are wrong, just that there may be more there than meets the eye, and we should be aware of it.
Michael
In a word I think its called "translation". Although its seems as if it should be simple, I have learned that nothing is ever simple. There always seems to be some point that is overlooked, some area that was not addressed. In some cases, legitimate areas of concern.
I know that we sometimes tend to see only our side of the matter, and say that this is a simple and straightforward matter, but often there are other things that come into play that we never thought of. I am not suggesting that the rules are wrong, just that there may be more there than meets the eye, and we should be aware of it.
Michael
M
my2cents
Guest
I think dress and grooming standards are getting ticklish in just about any professional work environment. I remember reading an article in a newspaper a while back, about a company that became so vexed about acceptable appearance standards, they dressed and groomed a set of male and female mannequins to demonstrate how they wanted their employees to look. From the gist of the article, it appears the employees got the message. Defining professional appearance standards can be tough, although who would want someone looking like Dennis Rodman or the Unabomber coming to your door? Some people probably wouldn't answer the door.
V
vgpa
Guest
There's nothing wrong with having a beard, as long as you don't look like Grizzy Adams. Just keep it neat and clean. I think some men look sexy with a beard, but then I suppose you can't look sexy at work either.
M
michael
Guest
vgpa;
I think most everyone wants to look good at work and everywhere else, but if you see my post below you might understand a little better where the problems arise. Its almost like and individual interpretation of what looks good.
I think most everyone wants to look good at work and everywhere else, but if you see my post below you might understand a little better where the problems arise. Its almost like and individual interpretation of what looks good.
L
longups
Guest
If you have been around over 35 years you may know why the standards of appearance have been in effect. When UPS was a retail delivery outfit (in the 1950s) our aim was to get you the driver into the front door of the home and later into the reception desk of the business that we delivered to. If our drivers looked like (as my2cents stated) Dennis Rodman it would be difficult to make those folks understand and give us the advantage that the back-door truck drivers don't get.
I worked in UPS's IS dept for several years and when business casual started, it was hard for me to accept anything less then a button down shirt for casual. Once I acclimatized I would not return to a suit and tie for anything. Some day when we can accept people for what they are beards too will be accepted.
I worked in UPS's IS dept for several years and when business casual started, it was hard for me to accept anything less then a button down shirt for casual. Once I acclimatized I would not return to a suit and tie for anything. Some day when we can accept people for what they are beards too will be accepted.
Similar threads
- Replies
- 162
- Views
- 24K
- Replies
- 111
- Views
- 16K
- Replies
- 49
- Views
- 11K