apathy in meeting

overflowed

Well-Known Member
Im not sure if your all getting this but the collective silence was accidental yet..Unified. How do you think they like that idea.

The don't, one bit. They brought it on, what do they expect? Don't see why they're surprised. This is akin to me starting to beat my dog for no reason when I come home. Then on top of it give her less food because I beat her. Do you think the dog will like me?
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
People are working to get cards signed at individual locations.

Just because every tactic being used is not getting posted does not mean there is not an effort being made.

Yes its an uphill battle, but just because a huge union movement (with no outside help I remind you) is not unfolding in front of your eyes, does not mean some of us aren't trying.

I base my post on 'reports' that have come in from station level managers I talk with in a few separate locations (yes, there are Senior and Ops Managers who don't like the way things are going). The reports are nearly identical, Couriers are ticked off, but they aren't looking to organize. This in combination with what I have seen here, is what led me to the conclusion that the Couriers are done.

IF there was going to be a grassroots campaign, it would've started by now, with you and others wanting to establish an 'off Browncafe', network and wanting to get serious about overcoming the hurdle the RLA has put up in front of the Couriers. Hasn't happened. The lingering loathing of the IBT came up and I knew that was the end of it. You can't attempt to sell one organization that people see as 'tainted', in order to overcome the screwing they are experiencing from another organization.

The most vocal, anti-Fred Couriers there are post and lurk here. If there was going to be any real hope of developing a grassroots organization drive, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM would've needed to volunteer to be both a station level organizer and volunteered to reach out to other stations in order to build a network of organizers.

Didn't happen.

Time is rapidly running out. The Couriers don't have years, they have maybe months at this point. Once DRA is firmly established in a majority of stations, it will be over. With the way things are going, by the end of 2014 that will happen. In order to beat that end of 2014 deadline, the Couriers need to have a certification vote by the end of this year, or early 2014 at the ABSOLUTE latest. With the way things are going, it won't ever happen.
I agree with most of what you say but don't believe that time has run out. This is a very large company and it is going to take time to organize it to the point where we can vote for a union. I don't quite understand why DRA would prevent that. Every day that this company tightens the screws starts to change the mindset of couriers little by little. Even the sheep like van. I don't know if I would base my opinion on what is happening company wide with organizing from a few managers. Their information wouldn't be accurate. The bottom line is if you plan on staying then you got to fight to the end. " Nothing is over! Nothing!"
 
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vantexan

Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what you say but don't believe that time has run out. This is a very large company and it is going to take time to organize it to the point where we can vote for a union. I don't quite understand why DRA would prevent that. Every day that this company tightens the screws starts to change the mindset of couriers little by little. Even the sheep like van. I don't know if I would base my opinion on what is happening company wide with organizing from a few managers. Their information wouldn't be accurate. The bottom line is if you plan on staying then you got to fight to the end. " Nothing is over! Nothing!"

He's telling you that DRA will allow them to bust any union organizing by firing couriers and bringing people quickly in to replace them. Just give them a little training, put a manifest into their hands, and turn'em loose. They'll be hiring them while smiling in your face, training them off site most likely, and then one day they'll walk up with that smiling mgr demanding your I.D.. And not miss a beat because your experience won't mean much at that point.
 

Ricochet1a

Well-Known Member
He's telling you that DRA will allow them to bust any union organizing by firing couriers and bringing people quickly in to replace them. Just give them a little training, put a manifest into their hands, and turn'em loose. They'll be hiring them while smiling in your face, training them off site most likely, and then one day they'll walk up with that smiling mgr demanding your I.D.. And not miss a beat because your experience won't mean much at that point.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. DRA is the "Doomsday Clock" for Express Courier. When it is fully implemented in a majority of stations - IT IS OVER.

Time to let the UPS folks comment here...

If UPS wasn't currently organized, what would be the ability of UPS to perform a lockout and pull in replacements - GIVEN, the current routing technology that is being used?

The Express Couriers just don't seem to understand the implications of computerized routing of delivery routes...
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what you say but don't believe that time has run out. This is a very large company and it is going to take time to organize it to the point where we can vote for a union. I don't quite understand why DRA would prevent that. Every day that this company tightens the screws starts to change the mindset of couriers little by little. Even the sheep like van. I don't know if I would base my opinion on what is happening company wide with organizing from a few managers. Their information wouldn't be accurate. The bottom line is if you plan on staying then you got to fight to the end. " Nothing is over! Nothing!"

He's telling you that DRA will allow them to bust any union organizing by firing couriers and bringing people quickly in to replace them. Just give them a little training, put a manifest into their hands, and turn'em loose. They'll be hiring them while smiling in your face, training them off site most likely, and then one day they'll walk up with that smiling mgr demanding your I.D.. And not miss a beat because your experience won't mean much at that point.

I don't think they are going to have a mass firing. They would have a lot more lawsuits, bad publicity, and spend a lot of $ in training. That's why Fred has been winning against any union organizing. He has most people in fear of loosing their job and for a long time. If you buy into that fear then you lose. I'm guessing you bought into it a long time ago. There is more to this job than just route knowledge and you know that. You can't just pull Joe blow off the corner and expect the same results.
 

Ricochet1a

Well-Known Member
I don't think they are going to have a mass firing. They would have a lot more lawsuits, bad publicity, and spend a lot of $ in training. That's why Fred has been winning against any union organizing. He has most people in fear of loosing their job and for a long time. If you buy into that fear then you lose. I'm guessing you bought into it a long time ago. There is more to this job than just route knowledge and you know that. You can't just pull Joe blow off the corner and expect the same results.

Right now, they can't pull anyone off the street and maintain service.

Once DRA is fully implemented, they can indeed pull anyone off the street and maintain service.

That is why I am saying, you don't have years, you have months - maybe 12, to get everything done and have the IBT be able to petition for a certification vote. Past that, it would either be a 'photo-finish', or Express will have pulled off its DRA plans and could simply refuse to negotiate EVEN IF you managed to get a union recognized.

Time is a luxury you simply don't have.
 

HomeDelivery

Well-Known Member
back to the OP, so is your station organizing to sign those union cards? (except for those 4 shills that you spotted on that meeting)
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back to the DRA or ROADS ~ from the DRAsaster thread, it's going to be a bit longer than a year for them to tweak it so that they can meet their EXPRESS standards (it works OK for Home Delivery because we don't have strict AM time deadlines like those "airline drivers").

The only efficient way to make DRA work is to have efficient programmers tweaking the system day-to-day for at least a month or two at one station... with the couriers' area knowledge of course (so that's where you can slow them down a bit)

in my area, EXPRESS isn't hiring from the street yet (maybe 3 on the website for the whole state) so they're definitely taking it slow to replace those FT Express workers into a PT work force.

from the Brown side, it looks like they're having a hit-or-miss on their PAS / EDD/ Orion systems as well. They too can be an expendable cog in their system once their route-programming is up to speed as well.

as Upstate said in other threads, that's why their going to have a multi-tiered pay scale for the newer drivers, because with this software, they can now afford less pay for delivery jockeys.

good luck to you guys and gals who's staying with that opco for the duration
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
I don't think they are going to have a mass firing. They would have a lot more lawsuits, bad publicity, and spend a lot of $ in training. That's why Fred has been winning against any union organizing. He has most people in fear of loosing their job and for a long time. If you buy into that fear then you lose. I'm guessing you bought into it a long time ago. There is more to this job than just route knowledge and you know that. You can't just pull Joe blow off the corner and expect the same results.

Right now, they can't pull anyone off the street and maintain service.

Once DRA is fully implemented, they can indeed pull anyone off the street and maintain service.

That is why I am saying, you don't have years, you have months - maybe 12, to get everything done and have the IBT be able to petition for a certification vote. Past that, it would either be a 'photo-finish', or Express will have pulled off its DRA plans and could simply refuse to negotiate EVEN IF you managed to get a union recognized.

Time is a luxury you simply don't have.

From what I've seen most route swaps and even transfers takes a few weeks maybe a month at most to adjust to new routes with the exception of a few routes. They give them help and I just don't see route knowledge that big of an issue for an experienced courier. Reality is FedEx will fight tooth and nail even if we had a vote in 6 months. I'm just saying a vote within 12 months is just not realistic without ibt help right now. So if anyone is serious about unionizing they have to be in it for the long haul.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
I don't think they are going to have a mass firing. They would have a lot more lawsuits, bad publicity, and spend a lot of $ in training. That's why Fred has been winning against any union organizing. He has most people in fear of loosing their job and for a long time. If you buy into that fear then you lose. I'm guessing you bought into it a long time ago. There is more to this job than just route knowledge and you know that. You can't just pull Joe blow off the corner and expect the same results.

It's not about fear. I could care less, I'm not fearful for my job, literally waiting for my old dogs to pass away. And not talking about mass firings either. They can identify who is an active organizer, get them on a mistake or two, and replace them with a newhire following a manifest. In right to work states they don't even need a reason. That's what DRA does for them and is why they are pushing to get it implemented. Then whatever they decide to do in the future the workforce will have no choice but to accept it or leave. If you are sincere about organizing then get to it. Taking personal potshots at those who are just commenting on the reality of the current situation is a waste of time. I don't believe, given the timeframe and the lack of understanding by most of the workforce about what's coming, that it's doable. But you won't know if you don't try.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
It's not about fear. I could care less, I'm not fearful for my job, literally waiting for my old dogs to pass away. And not talking about mass firings either. They can identify who is an active organizer, get them on a mistake or two, and replace them with a newhire following a manifest. In right to work states they don't even need a reason. That's what DRA does for them and is why they are pushing to get it implemented. Then whatever they decide to do in the future the workforce will have no choice but to accept it or leave. If you are sincere about organizing then get to it. Taking personal potshots at those who are just commenting on the reality of the current situation is a waste of time. I don't believe, given the timeframe and the lack of understanding by most of the workforce about what's coming, that it's doable. But you won't know if you don't try.


You two need to stop the infighting and just agree to disagree. I agree that our future options will be to "accept it or leave", which isn't too much different from what we have right now. The difference is that we still have the chance to do something about it by attempting to organize. I personally think that it's going to take them longer than they expect to sort out DRA, which is a good thing for us.

The IBT may eventually have to take notice if we give them a reason to, and if their membership (UPS) starts advocating for the IBT to jump on the Express bandwagon of discontent. If all we ever do is bitch, nothing is going to happen. However, if we start signing cards, and get UPS drivers and stewards informed and interested in our cause, things could begin to move. Imagine what happens if we get thousands of cards signed and UPS drivers start talking to Express couriers and telling them, in plain language, just how much better their pay and benefits are? And what if UPS Teamsters start pushing the IBT National to start a campaign?

Again, nothing happens unless we get enough cards signed to make it obvious to the IBT that they aren't wasting their time on an Express organization drive.

We have nothing to lose by trying.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
You two need to stop the infighting and just agree to disagree. I agree that our future options will be to "accept it or leave", which isn't too much different from what we have right now. The difference is that we still have the chance to do something about it by attempting to organize. I personally think that it's going to take them longer than they expect to sort out DRA, which is a good thing for us.

The IBT may eventually have to take notice if we give them a reason to, and if their membership (UPS) starts advocating for the IBT to jump on the Express bandwagon of discontent. If all we ever do is bitch, nothing is going to happen. However, if we start signing cards, and get UPS drivers and stewards informed and interested in our cause, things could begin to move. Imagine what happens if we get thousands of cards signed and UPS drivers start talking to Express couriers and telling them, in plain language, just how much better their pay and benefits are? And what if UPS Teamsters start pushing the IBT National to start a campaign?

Again, nothing happens unless we get enough cards signed to make it obvious to the IBT that they aren't wasting their time on an Express organization drive.

We have nothing to lose by trying.

Talking about the DRA, this is what I believe is another important feature for them. They are always talking about a "no layoff philosophy" and I believe they don't want layoffs for two reasons. One is they'll be responsible for alot of unemployment checks, and two it's better to have already trained couriers with experience if possible. But what I do see coming, IMO, is a large reduction in volume and the end of our 35 hr guaranty. I think they'll still want to classify us as fulltimers, as much as possible, because it gives them greater flexibility for Peak, Mother's Day, sick calls, etc. But they can say the Dept of Labor classifies fulltime employment as 30 hrs or more, but due to changing market conditions they can no longer guarantee 35 hrs. And this is where the DRA comes in handy. Most likely they'll see thousands of fulltimers quit, and getting service levels up to an acceptable level quickly will be important. Not to mention I've seen part-time newhires in an easy area with a good map take almost 6 hrs to deliver 25 stops. And probably a factor in not offering buyouts, thinking the employees will take care of it for them, and then they hire just enough part-timers, or "fulltimers", to "right size" the Express workforce. Of course it depends on getting DRA working right, and hopefully that will buy us enough time. But plenty of time seems to be one thing we're definitely short on.
 

fedupped

Well-Known Member
There are not a lot of people that want our job. We have a difficult time filling new hire positions. Dra or not, I think you are over dramatizing Fedex ability to fill express positions, certainly not on the long term. It takes a certain kind of idiot to be able to do this job, well, on a long term basis. "As a new hire you will receive comparable pay ..and never top out." Sounds GREATTTT. Im approaching 30 years in a truck. I have seen and heard it all. I think I have a pair. But thanks for the advice.
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
There are not a lot of people that want our job. We have a difficult time filling new hire positions. Dra or not, I think you are over dramatizing Fedex ability to fill express positions, certainly not on the long term. It takes a certain kind of idiot to be able to do this job, well, on a long term basis. "As a new hire you will receive comparable pay ..and never top out." Sounds GREATTTT. Im approaching 30 years in a truck. I have seen and heard it all. I think I have a pair. But thanks for the advice.

I couldn't agree more. Even with DRA the amount of bs you have to deal with on a daily basis is only going to increase. Over the years I would say maybe 50% new hires have stayed and I would imagine that % would decrease with the decrease in benefits, hours and nonexistent raises. I think some of you are placing to much emphasis on this aspect and should worry much more about shifting volume to ground.
 

Maui

Well-Known Member
I would not recommend an Express courier job to someone that has a family and needs the income to support them. It is nigh impossible to start as a full-timer and make decent money. There are constant campaigns to limit the hours of PT to under 30 hours and restrictions on delivering P2. Of course, most new hires will have not know this going in.

DRA is much further than a year out for full implementation. The dates are constatnly pushed back because of some error. And as far as I know it still will not work for AM delivery areas. So all those routes would have to utilize SRA. Also, it makes it difficult to take AA P1 on the way out to an AM area route. DRA does not allow for mixed service commitments, and many stations have routes with combined service areas. You then have to exclude a large number of routes from DRA.

Pickup routes already have manifests and you can't just through a new person on a pup route and expect it to get done. No different for DRA. What DRA gives you is a significant time savings on fine sort and LBT. It also pretty easily manages volume fluctuations. It is a long way from being perfected and still hasn't been implemented in most places.

It is a little alarmist to say that there is no time left for organizing. It is hard now and will remain hard in the future. The cost associated with organizing the huge number of couriers for vote is staggering in money and time.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more. Even with DRA the amount of bs you have to deal with on a daily basis is only going to increase. Over the years I would say maybe 50% new hires have stayed and I would imagine that % would decrease with the decrease in benefits, hours and nonexistent raises. I think some of you are placing to much emphasis on this aspect and should worry much more about shifting volume to ground.

But they are intertwined. Shift volume over to Ground, Express has less to do, people will start getting paid their guaranty. If there's one thing I know about FedEx is they hate paying anyone a penny without getting something in return.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I would not recommend an Express courier job to someone that has a family and needs the income to support them. It is nigh impossible to start as a full-timer and make decent money. There are constant campaigns to limit the hours of PT to under 30 hours and restrictions on delivering P2. Of course, most new hires will have not know this going in.

DRA is much further than a year out for full implementation. The dates are constatnly pushed back because of some error. And as far as I know it still will not work for AM delivery areas. So all those routes would have to utilize SRA. Also, it makes it difficult to take AA P1 on the way out to an AM area route. DRA does not allow for mixed service commitments, and many stations have routes with combined service areas. You then have to exclude a large number of routes from DRA.

Pickup routes already have manifests and you can't just through a new person on a pup route and expect it to get done. No different for DRA. What DRA gives you is a significant time savings on fine sort and LBT. It also pretty easily manages volume fluctuations. It is a long way from being perfected and still hasn't been implemented in most places.

It is a little alarmist to say that there is no time left for organizing. It is hard now and will remain hard in the future. The cost associated with organizing the huge number of couriers for vote is staggering in money and time.

Getting full-time means very little if you're just starting-out and making, say $17 per hour or so for busting your ass. Oh, and little to no OT to help compensate for the low pay. New hires need to get the full story before they hire-on and make a bad decision. It doesn't take long to figure-out that if it takes you 22+ years to get to top wage and that you essentially have zero for a retirement plan, other jobs start looking a lot more attractive fast.

Full disclosure please, Fredward.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
There are not a lot of people that want our job. We have a difficult time filling new hire positions. Dra or not, I think you are over dramatizing Fedex ability to fill express positions, certainly not on the long term. It takes a certain kind of idiot to be able to do this job, well, on a long term basis. "As a new hire you will receive comparable pay ..and never top out." Sounds GREATTTT. Im approaching 30 years in a truck. I have seen and heard it all. I think I have a pair. But thanks for the advice.

But you are thinking in terms of fulltimers wanting hours and a solid career. It's obvious that FedEx wants a different demographic. They'll be looking for people who want less hours, more flexibility in their lives, and who don't see it as a career. Think college students, housewives, military retirees. Not to mention millions out of work who'll take anything. All FedEx really has to do is make people aware of the opportunity. We've discussed this here before that as a fulltime job it sucks, but it's not a bad part-time gig. I'm sure people working 40+ at $8.50hr aren't going to turn their nose up at a job starting at $14.46 on up to over $17hr. And the simplification of the job with DRA will keep most from quitting.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
It is a little alarmist to say that there is no time left for organizing. It is hard now and will remain hard in the future. The cost associated with organizing the huge number of couriers for vote is staggering in money and time.

Keep in mind that FedEx isn't waiting around to see what will happen next. They are charging full steam ahead, and won't rest until they get DRA at an acceptable level. Looks like we may have until the end of 2014, but Fred has declared to Wall Street that they'll almost double profits by 2016. So don't bet there's plenty of time.
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
There are not a lot of people that want our job. We have a difficult time filling new hire positions. Dra or not, I think you are over dramatizing Fedex ability to fill express positions, certainly not on the long term. It takes a certain kind of idiot to be able to do this job, well, on a long term basis. "As a new hire you will receive comparable pay ..and never top out." Sounds GREATTTT. Im approaching 30 years in a truck. I have seen and heard it all. I think I have a pair. But thanks for the advice.

But you are thinking in terms of fulltimers wanting hours and a solid career. It's obvious that FedEx wants a different demographic. They'll be looking for people who want less hours, more flexibility in their lives, and who don't see it as a career. Think college students, housewives, military retirees. Not to mention millions out of work who'll take anything. All FedEx really has to do is make people aware of the opportunity. We've discussed this here before that as a fulltime job it sucks, but it's not a bad part-time gig. I'm sure people working 40+ at $8.50hr aren't going to turn their nose up at a job starting at $14.46 on up to over $17hr. And the simplification of the job with DRA will keep most from quitting.

The only thing DRA would simplify would be learning a route. It would be the same job and probably worse after it is fully implemented. There is a reason why the turn over rate is very high compared to UPS. Most people that quit just realize the pay and benefits are just not worth the work and bs. The economy is improving and there is a lot more opportunities then there was 4 years ago. They would probably get a lot of applicants, no doubt. But once most of these new hires figure out what the job really entails and the almost non existent benefits, they will be dropping like flys.
 

fedupped

Well-Known Member
First, volume (express saver), is not shifting according to Distmgr. Many areas are just not logistically efficient to truck. We were told that this product would be able to compete with ground given the logistics and time involved. It was also mentioned that Amazon was looking to push a same day del product. Express is here to stay, one way or another. And I dont think it will be manned by housewives or college students. Dont forget about the costs of hiring and training. I really dont think Fedex is looking to hire a 5 year and out the door employee. I see the new hires now. Not very efficient, maybe by choice. And which casual employee looking to make a few hours out there is running out to get a CDL.
 
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