Change you can believe in.

[1989]

Lack of communication or lack in confidence/clarity is only but a small part of the problem, but not why people are losing jobs left and right. This has been an on going self destruction of the market and the previous Adm sitting on their hands actually believing their economic idealogy and de-regulation would succeed. And now, in a month's time channeling your ire towards a democratic canidate that clean your parties clock and is now in power. I know it's hard to accept, but face it, the market dropped the ball.





The market does not look back, it moves on a forward outlook. The bad economy has been priced in the market. The market is going lower on less earnings, and people paying a lesser multiple of earnings as it should. Todays unemployment numbers didn't phase the market. But poor policy by punishing capital and sucess will not help create jobs.

I agree with you that Clinton should not have repealed the Glass-Steagall act back in 1999. Why do you play partisan politics? I have no problem with Democrates just some of their policies. I voted for Clinton 2, and Gore....Again poor people don't create jobs.

 

[tieguy]

TIEGUY,

a little detail you leave out of those numbers is the COST OF BOTH WARS that BUSH NEVER paid for!

As President Obama said, the cost of these wars will not be hidden from the american people any longer.

The deferred cost of these wars was a ticking time bomb that would have gone against McCain just as equally if he was elected.

At 5 billion a month currently, these wars continue to drag this country into further debt. Getting out will surely stop the eonomic bleeding caused a deep wound of ideological failure.

Everyone thinks they are an economist now.

FAUX news has been wrong for over 8 years now. From Cavuto to Orielly.

All have been wrong in their positions on this economy. Cavuto calling the press and those trying to ring the alarms bells: extremists and exagerators, 2 years ago when the signs all pointed at a recession.

Orielly, hammered anyone who said the country was in a recession from 2007 thru december 2008, yet the facts now prove him to be wrong.

Both of these idiots claimed there was no housing bubble, and no need for panic, yet, since that claim, over 4 million homes have gone into foreclosure and another estimated 1.5 million to go this year.

So, lets not make numbers your specialty TIE, you too have been on the wrong side of reality when it comes to the economy.

All you have to do is go back and read some of your posts.

I have a few clues for sale if your interested?

POS 2.5 trillion on the deficit in less then 100 days. Bush can't touch that. Obama is setting deficit spending records that will never be broken.

Didn't Obama promise to withdraw the troops from these wars the minute he got elected? What happened does he not know he got elected? your guy just crapped in your hands and you keep trying to tell us its gold.

 

[diesel96]

Didn't Obama promise to withdraw the troops from these wars the minute he got elected? What happened does he not know he got elected? your guy just crapped in your hands and you keep trying to tell us its gold.

This is why I get accused of being a party hack, always defending Obama. Put it this way, I'm simply correcting mis-information. Obama's promise was withdrawal within 16 months. Thats Aug 2010 for combat troops, 2 months behind schedule, and I think July 2011 for withdrawal of the balance of 50,000 support troops. Frankly Tie, I wish he would withdrawal immediatly and Afghanistan to. Don't fret Wkmac, I will get on his case if he breaks his promise.....

 

[The Other Side]

TIE,

POS 2.5 trillion on the deficit in less then 100 days. Bush can't touch that. Obama is setting deficit spending records that will never be broken.

This is BUSH's DEBT.

Someone has to clean up after the piles of mess BUSH left behind, and thats gonna cost alot of money.

When in 8 years, you have an administration that allowed 72% of american jobs to go overseas to protect the "global" economy, what did you expect americans to do for work once the phoney economic boom was over??

How were americans suppose to find new jobs when the very corporations in america are not providing jobs?

Wall street made trillions in 8 years, they ripped off the american public with the watchful eye of the president the whole time. Did you all forget about Enron, Tyco, Worldcom? This was only the begining of the end of american financial security.

People have short memories. The Enron board was on BUSH's energy cabinet, until they got caught stealing millions.

The list goes on and on. Wall Street made it possible for two things to happen.

One, it forced companies to leave the USA and go to china to produce goods to make higher profits.

Second, it allowed those corporations to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to its CEO's until it wiped out profitability.

Now, there are no jobs to find.

This had nothing to do with OBAMA. This is an 8 year time bomb that was waiting to go off in our collective faces.

Now, given this situation, and seeing that the very corporations that made billions in 8 years are now NOT doing anything to help america, the goverment is having to step in and lead the way back to recovery.

Its going to take trillions of dollars to re-start this country, this is what happens when you have a president who sits on his a$h for 8 years while the country falls apart.

The list is long with failures that led our nation down a path of destruction.

President OBAMA has the courage to face them head on and lead by example.

This country needs a large investment in becoming a productive nation once again.

Its funny how for the last 2 years of the BUSH term, all of you were saying the same thing, that they economy was fine, and it was all liberal media hype when anyone spoke of trouble coming.

The alarm bells were ringing loud and clear. You were afraid to go against your own party who was in charge.

Now, however, you want to complain.

The debt belongs to BUSH and the Republicans. Its clear, most of you never realized that either war was NEVER PAID FOR.

Well, the bill is now DUE. OBAMA has to pay for it, or should I say, WE have to pay for it. WARS are not free and if you support these wars, then take out your checkbooks and write the goverment a check for $38,500.00 each, cause thats what its going to cost all americans.

You want to wave your flag, well it just cost you 38K. Enjoy it, you asked for it.

Dont bitch about higher taxes, your support of failed policies sealed your collective fates.

Tie, you want to talk about records that wont be broken? How about the record number of personal bankruptcies in 8 years under BUSH?

The highest level of personal bankruptcies in american history.

This could be you buddy in a couple of years.

The country knew what it was doing when they elected OBAMA. Now its time to get behind him and fix this country.

If we dont, at least youll have your guns and ammo.

(p.s. no shortage of guns or ammo here in california)

 

[tieguy]

This is why I get accused of being a party hack, always defending Obama. Put it this way, I'm simply correcting mis-information. Obama's promise was withdrawal within 16 months. Thats Aug 2010 for combat troops, 2 months behind schedule, and I think July 2011 for withdrawal of the balance of 50,000 support troops. Frankly Tie, I wish he would withdrawal immediatly and Afghanistan to. Don't fret Wkmac, I will get on his case if he breaks his promise.....

He is clearly planning on leaving troops in Iraq which violates his campaign promise. He had enough time to study the issue and promise an accurate timeline. Another broken campaign promise. the good news is the urgency is no longer there since Bush won that war before leaving office.

 

[tieguy]

TIE,



This is BUSH's DEBT.

Someone has to clean up after the piles of mess BUSH left behind, and thats gonna cost alot of money.

pos the 2.5 trillion obama is spending is all new spending.
Bush did not do anything alone, he had a liberal congress with Obama and nancy helping him.

 

[1989]

This is why I get accused of being a party hack, always defending Obama. Put it this way, I'm simply correcting mis-information. Obama's promise was withdrawal within 16 months. Thats Aug 2010 for combat troops, 2 months behind schedule, and I think July 2011 for withdrawal of the balance of 50,000 support troops. Frankly Tie, I wish he would withdrawal immediatly and Afghanistan to. Don't fret Wkmac, I will get on his case if he breaks his promise.....

(AP) Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is calling for the immediate withdrawal of all U.S. combat brigades from Iraq, with the pullout being completed by the end of next year.

"Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was," Obama said in excerpts of the speech provided to The Associated Press.

"The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year — now," the Illinois senator says.

 

[av8torntn]

(AP) Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is calling for the immediate withdrawal of all U.S. combat brigades from Iraq, with the pullout being completed by the end of next year.

"Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was," Obama said in excerpts of the speech provided to The Associated Press.

"The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year — now," the Illinois senator says.

LOL I remember when he was using this as a campaign promise.

 

[The Other Side]

pos the 2.5 trillion obama is spending is all new spending.
Bush did not do anything alone, he had a liberal congress with Obama and nancy helping him.

TIE tie tie,

the ignorance continues. For your education, the spending bill that is up for debate is a carry over from last year, the goverment has been working on a "stop gap" bill passed just before the election.

The money in the bill is all from last year with an additional 20 billion added to it to run the country for the rest of the year.

In this bill, 42% of the pork spending is republican sponsored. You have no case, as usual.

Now, another "stop gap" bill will have to be passed by the house in order for the goverment to keep working until the senate passes the final spending bill.

I wish you actually had knowledge of goverment workings and goings on, then we could maybe have an actual debate.

But you dont.

 

[tieguy]

TIE tie tie,

the ignorance continues.

It does and I thank you for finally admitting to it.

 

[wkmac]

Don't fret Wkmac, I will get on his case if he breaks his promise.....

I'll save you a chair!


BTW: Regarding Atlas Shrugged, I was never much into works of fiction. History does a perfect job all on it's own of making one distrust gov't!


Obama may intend to have all the troops out by 2011' but I'd bet the military-industrial complex thinks otherwise. And when you consider the Clinton machine he put in power under him, I'm telling you, just like we had a rude awakening with Reagan, so will you with Obama. This is one time I wish Obama would have made Ayers and Rev. Wright a part of his cabinet then I might believe real change.

That comment should stir the red staters!


Hey AV,

The only pullout I see Obama doing over the next year is with the first lady!

he'd say that!

Oh yes he did!

 

[diesel96]

(AP) Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is calling for the immediate withdrawal of all U.S. combat brigades from Iraq, with the pullout being completed by the end of next year.

"Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was," Obama said in excerpts of the speech provided to The Associated Press.

"The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year — now," the Illinois senator says.

LOL I remember when he was using this as a campaign promise.

Av8, it wasn't a campaign promise, but a request towards the sitting president to act right away.

1989 how many threads are you going to paste this two year old campaign quote directed at the Bush Adm....
My previous response still stands;
Let's be clear, that statement was made late summer 2007 on the campaign trail directed at the Bush Adm......So if Bush started withdrawing troops in late summer/early fall 2007 to the end of the following year 2008 that equates to a 16 month withdrawal.

I'll save you a chair!


BTW: Regarding Atlas Shrugged, I was never much into works of fiction. History does a perfect job all on it's own of making one distrust gov't!


Obama may intend to have all the troops out by 2011' but I'd bet the military-industrial complex thinks otherwise. And when you consider the Clinton machine he put in power under him, I'm telling you, just like we had a rude awakening with Reagan, so will you with Obama. This is one time I wish Obama would have made Ayers and Rev. Wright a part of his cabinet then I might believe real change.

That comment should stir the red staters!


Hey AV,

The only pullout I see Obama doing over the next year is with the first lady!

he'd say that!

Oh yes he did!

FYI...This may shock you, but I was a registered Republican fresh out of HS and Reagan was the man......so I thought, boy, was I wrong and did I have a rude awakening....Growing up during the cold war era hiding under our desks in school for emegency drills (like hiding under wooden desk would save us from a nuclear friend-bomb), conditioned us for a "Great Communicator" to deal with the Russians...I was young and naive, who cared about the economy when your 18/22 yrs old....then when all the dust settled from the crumbling of the Berlin Wall, what he really did was outspend the Russians and still pretend to be the party of small fiscal Govt long afterwards. Not to mention raise taxes as well....lol
What really perturb me was his firings of the Air Traffic controllers and his compassion and intervention for Corperate America not the average working man.....anyway to make a long story short, I subscribe to the other side. I figure if our Gov't is going to spend, then spend it wisely on the masses, not the few and the previledged already on the top of the food chain pooping out scraps for the rest of us with there Reagan-nomic Trickle-nomic ponzi schemes.

BTW....Wkmac, I was vocal when Obama and the rest of the BC's conservatives threw Rev Wright under the bus......this country is not ready to accept critiscism of it'self quite yet.....and I got flamed for it.

 

[av8torntn]

Av8, it wasn't a campaign promise, but a request towards the sitting president to act right away.

.

The old lame Bush excuse you keep using does not work here. Obama in his own words from the campaign trail in Iowa. He lied to you guys and at the time I think you were even one of the people who attacked me for saying an immediate withdrawal would not work.

[video=youtube;S-FCUqUs9ec]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-FCUqUs9ec[/video]

 

[wkmac]

FYI...This may shock you, but I was a registered Republican fresh out of HS and Reagan was the man......so I thought, boy, was I wrong and did I have a rude awakening....Growing up during the cold war era hiding under our desks in school for emegency drills (like hiding under wooden desk would save us from a nuclear friend-bomb), conditioned us for a "Great Communicator" to deal with the Russians...I was young and naive, who cared about the economy when your 18/22 yrs old....then when all the dust settled from the crumbling of the Berlin Wall, what he really did was outspend the Russians and still pretend to be the party of small fiscal Govt long afterwards. Not to mention raise taxes as well....lol
What really perturb me was his firings of the Air Traffic controllers and his compassion and intervention for Corperate America not the average working man.....anyway to make a long story short, I subscribe to the other side. I figure if our Gov't is going to spend, then spend it wisely on the masses, not the few and the previledged already on the top of the food chain pooping out scraps for the rest of us with there Reagan-nomic Trickle-nomic ponzi schemes.

BTW....Wkmac, I was vocal when Obama and the rest of the BC's conservatives threw Rev Wright under the bus......this country is not ready to accept critiscism of it'self quite yet.....and I got flamed for it.

No it doesn't shock me no more than I was a big supporter of a democrat during that time period in one Congressman Larry McDonald. Now Larry to the democrats was like Ron Paul is to republicans and Larry and Ron were also friends. Met Ron through Larry in 1981' and been a fan ever since. One was a democrat and the other republican but they both maintained a philosophy I agreed with. Party made no difference and I dispised Newt Gingrich then as I do now for being a snake in the grass and never about true limited gov't principles. I don't support Ted Kennedy because IMO he lacks these priciples so why should a choose to support a very similar position because the person has an "R" after their name?

Funny, some people tell me my bulldoggedness to philosophical principle is an admirable trait when I could go along with the crowd and benefit from it but then there are insecure herd followers who love to say otherwise and that I lack no convictions or principles (mostly because I won't choose from curtain #1 or curtain #2 and know the money is really in Monte's pocket) and I'm sure much of that is judged on the fact that my views aren't held by a large % of society and this is very true.

I guess this makes people like Jesus total failures as they weren't performing to sold out tours either and the gov't eventually executed him for sedition and treason. Boy, where would we all be now had he "followed the herd" as some here would suggest I do now? Would to God we did a better job following his teachings if you want my opinion! I'm betting good money you'd agree with that last comment too?

I see both parties now and the leadership of them as not true opposities but rather in truth the same side. Some people here are screaming about the $2.5 trillion in additional debt of Obama and that is true and a completely correct and fair point. Where I take issue with some here who make this point is the fact that while they now attack Obama's actions, while spending the last 8 years defending a political side that themselves doubled the national debt and vastly expanding the size and scope of gov't while proclaiming to the public to be for limited spending and limited gov't.

Oh they are so quick to say "we had no choice after 9/11" but they ignore the point that during this same time period, tax revenues increased to nearly a $1 trillion in extra revenue 2003' to 2006' which was more than enough to cover all the war costs related to 9/11 and it's after effects. So where did all this new federal debt go? BTW: I've pointed out with gov't facts and links the 03' ro 06' tax revs increase in another thread if you care to look it up.

Also, in 2002' we faced a recession partly from 9/11 but also the effects of the late 90's bubbles as these sometimes take a couple of years to begin to wash down but instead of letting this thing ride itself out and waste out the bad as this is what a reccession is and needs, Bush had his own stimulus plan in 2003' (reinflate the bubble) and a lot of this plan ended up creating things like the ownership society idea (actually refocus on already existing plans from previous adminstrations) that helped foster the real estate bubble but Bush was smart (qualified term understanding the context of Keynesian economics)in that he used gov't economic intervention to shift economic resources to places in the economy that would drive the highest tax rev. returns while ignoring the bubble effects that could result in busts later on. As I said earlier, 2003' we get a plan and from 03' to 06' gov't gets it's own stimulus but 5 years out from 03' we have the bust.

Nixon/Ford had their own interventions with Nixon killing Bretton Woods with the closing of the gold window and remember the infamous "WIN" (Whip Inflation Now) program? All that added up and then around 5 years later President Carter paid the piper. Carter's mistake like I think Obama is doing now is following bad advice and digging the hole deeper. This is just the same ole bad movie done over again and the plot doesn't change either. Clinton semed to break the mold but his was an issue of good timing. The peace dividend from the ending of the cold war was what helped Clinton look good for most of his years.

But Democrats only screamed when in the minority under Bush not because they opposed the means of gaining the revenue but because they were the minority and therefore weren't able to control where the money is spent so they could insure the ability to buy votes. Oh you think I only picking on democrats? Really? Me? Ah, you should know me better by now.

Lookie! Lookie! Lookie! what Big Daddy brought home for Christmas (pagan holiday). All we hear right now is the massive speading of democrats and in 03' republicans got their version but republicans also had their own plan that in truth got morphed into Obama's plans. The republican plan on cost may not have been at the same level as Obama's but it also included many of the same infastructure projects and even money for public welfare programs. So what it comes down to is not a choice between socialism and private freedom/limited gov't, personal choice and local control but rather down to a choice of just how much of it we want. We already know that between the 2 parties we have socialist A or socialist B, the choice comes down to size. In this case, size does matter!


Republicans and democrats have switched roles and now republicans are on the outs and can't control where the gov't money is spent so therefore out come the masks of being limited gov't/fiscal responsible elected officials and I'll bet it's the same masks democrats were wearing back in the day when even Ted Kennedy was decrying Bush and republicans lack of fiscal responsibility. My guess is just before Obama came out to take the oath, all these liars and thieves of both parties met in the Capital building to exchange masks and here we go again with the next act of a greek tragedy! And we average folk are the real victims and forced to drink gov't hemlock!

The question now becomes, will we wake up in time before it is too late to realize we are being played the fool?

Enjoy your Sunday as I will.

 

[wkmac]

AV,

Good post on the Obama YouTube speech on Iraq. You know another thing I found of interest is Obama's comments in one of the Presidential debates concerning earmarks as it relates to current realities.

But just one point I want to make, Tom. Sen. McCain mentioned looking at our records. We do need to look at our records.
Sen. McCain likes to talk about earmarks a lot. And that's important. I want to go line by line through every item in the federal budget and eliminate programs that don't work and make sure that those that do work, work better and cheaper.

Transcript source

Bush promised in his debates in 2000' with Al Gore of no more nation building and obviously that promise never panned out and I'm being kind here out of respect for your position but it's also equally obvious President Obama is following President Bush in a trail of broken promises and depending on POV down right lies! What's even more sad or is it more telling is not the silence here among democrat faith defenders as I understand some of that. What is surprising however is the utter silence from folks like Rev. Wright and say a Bill Ayers in being critical of Obama based on their own past public positions on issues.

There is some objections from the more radical left to Obama's 180 on war issues but it is being drowned out by the silence of the larger remaining Obamaites as they sit on their hands while their own President continues a very sad trend in American politics of lies and broken promises.

 

[chev]

TIE tie tie,

the ignorance continues. For your education, the spending bill that is up for debate is a carry over from last year, the government has been working on a "stop gap" bill passed just before the election.

The money in the bill is all from last year with an additional 20 billion added to it to run the country for the rest of the year.

In this bill, 42% of the pork spending is republican sponsored. You have no case, as usual.

Now, another "stop gap" bill will have to be passed by the house in order for the government to keep working until the senate passes the final spending bill.

I wish you actually had knowledge of government workings and goings on, then we could maybe have an actual debate.

But you dont.

And the smugness carries on. You win. You just "know" it all.
This is why I dislike liberals.
TOSSER.........You know sooo much about GoverNment, but three times you misspell it?

 

[Jagger]

McCain Lies About Negative GDP Growth

McCain falsely claims CBO says spending will cause us to have a negative GDP growth

​

Chris Wallace allowed Sen. John McCain to falsely claim that, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), "[a]ll of this spending, all of this debt, all of the policies" will, "in the long term, cause us to have a negative ... GDP growth."

In fact, CBO has predicted a slight reduction in long-term GDP growth when compared to current projections -- though not enough to result in negative GDP growth -- due to the "crowding-out" effect of the increase in government debt resulting from the economic recovery act.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200903080011
​

 

[brett636]

Re: McCain Lies About Negative GDP Growth

McCain falsely claims CBO says spending will cause us to have a negative GDP growth

​

Chris Wallace allowed Sen. John McCain to falsely claim that, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), "[a]ll of this spending, all of this debt, all of the policies" will, "in the long term, cause us to have a negative ... GDP growth."

In fact, CBO has predicted a slight reduction in long-term GDP growth when compared to current projections -- though not enough to result in negative GDP growth -- due to the "crowding-out" effect of the increase in government debt resulting from the economic recovery act.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200903080011
​

And reducing our GDP growth is a good thing?

 

[wkmac]

Despite President Barack Obama’s statement at Camp LeJeune, North Carolina Feb. 27 that he had "chosen a timeline that will remove our combat brigades over the next 18 months," a number of Brigade Combat Teams (BCTs), which have been the basic U.S. Army combat unit in Iraq for six years, will remain in Iraq after that date under a new non-combat label.

Obama’s decision to go along with the military proposal for a "transition force" of 35,000 to 50,000 troops thus represents a complete abandonment of his own original policy of combat troop withdrawal and an acceptance of what the military wanted all along - the continued presence of several combat brigades in Iraq well beyond mid-2010.

Late last year, Gen. David Petraeus, the CENTCOM chief, and Gen. Ray Odierno, the top commander in Iraq, were unhappy with Obama’s pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat brigades within 16 months. But military planners quickly hit on the relabeling scheme as a way of avoiding the complete withdrawal of BCTs in an Obama administration.

The New York Times revealed Dec. 4 that Pentagon planners were talking about "relabeling" of U.S. combat units as "training and support" units in a Dec. 4 story, but provided no details. Pentagon planners were projecting that as many as 70,000 U.S. troops would be maintained in Iraq "for a substantial time even beyond 2011".

Glad to see Obama is learning the Washington 2 Step at the Military Industrial Complex School of Political Dance!

Bush said that negotiations were about to begin on a long-term strategic partnership with the Iraqi government modeled on the accords the United States has with Kuwait and many other countries.
Most significant of all, the new partnership deal with Iraq, including a status of forces agreement that would then replace the existing Security Council mandate authorizing the presence of the U.S.-led multinational forces in Iraq, will become a sworn obligation for the next president. It will become just another piece of the complex global security framework involving a hundred or so countries with which Washington now has bilateral defense or security cooperation agreements.

In fairness, maybe he was had before he even got the job but if that's the case, he should come clean with the American people. Not telling the truth IMO makes you a co-conspirator to the crime and therefore just as liable as Bush and company. Therefore, where's the CHANGE?

 

[wkmac]

New president Barack Obama's $3.55 trillion budget serves notice that if you thought government couldn't get any bigger or more intrusive, think again. The budget "represents real and dramatic change," according to the President. But really the Obama plan is just more of the same, with the federal government expanding its role in education, foreign policy, energy policy, health care, and environmental policy.

The Lies are Sacred, Blessed by Government