Early Contract Talks

Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by wkmac, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Just Lurking

    Just Lurking Member

    scratch_king, how old were you when you started with company?

    Have you checked service credit versus contributory credit for your part-time years. I was under the impression that the compant didnot give contributory credit for under age 21 due to ERISA laws.
     
  2. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

     
  3. nospinzone

    nospinzone New Member

    Wkmac,
    First, get a cold drink, sit down, and relax.

    Nowhere in my post did I emply that you were anti or pro APWA. The only place i referred to you directly or indirectly was in my greeting. Dont read so much into my posts. If I wanted to imply that you were anti/pro I would have come out and said it. Youve made it quite clear numerous times in other posts where your position is on APWA.

    Where have I made statements that I cant back up? Show me. Take a minute to review my posts on this web board. I think you'll find that any statements of fact that I presume to make are most often sourced with a website. If its my opinion, than I say its my opinion. I agree that there have been over-eager people making false statements and conjectures as if they officially speak for APWA which only adds confusion to the conversation. I avoid those situations at all costs, or just keep the comments to myself.
    Eskew can greenlight and declare that there is "One UPS" all he wants to(which is sound organizational and long term planning), but the decision to certify any bargaining agent falls on the employees. And greenlighting IBT just means that Eskew will not fight union organization in general. This "greenlighting" also included APWA if the Freight people want to bring them in. Eskew hasnt blessed the IBT organizing with a magic wand by any means. IMO, it would be in the best long term interest of UPS for APWA to be certified by both groups. Yes, it would follow the "One UPS" theme, but it would more importantly place a cap on the humongous long term liability associated with the failing pension plans like Central States.
    I dont disagree with the credibility statement. I have thought about that and discussed it with Eason. He agrees. But they also have made it clear that organizing UPSF is not their priority. UPS parcel is their priority. People from UPSF have been coming to meetings of their own interests, and if APWA gets put on the NLRB cards, it will only be because the people at UPSF did it themselves.

    No hard feelings on this side, but just as yourself, I dont like to be misunderstood/inappropriately labeled.
    Go METS!
     
  4. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    The above statement appeared to imply that to me. If it didn't, then fine.

    As to my comments about "you cheerleader types" that is a broad generalization and I would guess that would include you but not you specifically. As to going back point by point I'm not gonna waste my time but I'll still stick by what I said because at least it'll keep you honest and on your toes. In other words, document the facts here and prove me wrong Big Boy because if you can the way I see it I still win! If you already are telling the truth and posting the facts then you should have no problem. What you might do however is check your APWA friends at the door because they all don't share your high degree of honesty I can tell you that for a fact.

    APWA is a great idea and I like seeing that idea out there to consider but you got some folks talking about issues that just are not the facts of the case.

    We know we've got a bad apple with the IBT but some sections are at least still somewhat edible for the time being. The fact is APWA is told to us as being this fat, juicy, delious apple but when we look in the barrel there's really nothing there at the moment, only the promise that there will be. Put some real apples in that barrel and people will begin to take you serious but until then, as much as I like the idea of APWA, it just ain't gonna happen.
     
  5. nospinzone

    nospinzone New Member

    Fair enough with the cheerleading comments.....

    This brings up a valid concern that reasonable people have of the APWA. There is no track record to consider. When choosing two candidates in a political race, the candidates usually have a voting record...some way that we can predict how they will perform. In this instance we only have the ideas and directions that Eason and Skillman would like to take APWA. The charter describes much of this in writing, but there is no track record or "voting record". How could APWA satisfy this deficiency? To choose to not support because of this is a reasonable arguement, but this choice implies that you believe that the performance of the IBT is a better alternative which I would argue against. I believe that to support the APWA requires something that the IBT has massacred in its tenure as the agent......trust and integrity. Can we trust the two guys from North Carolina? How much planning and foresight have they put into this? Will they abuse the power if we give it to them? Can we believe the financial predictions they are providing? I think this is why its so important to attend the meetings in person. They pretty much repeat all the information thats on the website at their meetings, but more importantly, you get to learn who they are and what kind of integrity they would bring back to the union.

    I'll finish up by leadin us in a round of kum-bah-yah if you like.....:lol:
     
  6. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    nospin,
    Here's our choice.

    At best we have a current fudicary agent who is somewhat inept but at the same time motivated by poitical power and control who we know at the moment we'll at least get most of what we've been promised. May be a sandwich instead of T-Bone but we'll at least eat something. Now we also know there is a chance even this could go away but for the moment we feel fairly safe at getting a little bit of what's been promised. With a little luck we may even get lucky and get by better than we thought.

    At worst, they are a lying, former mob connected and manipulated fudicary agent that can't be trusted and is so toothless that UPS really plays them like a puppet and we're just along for the ride. Other opinions generally fall somewhere in between of these extremes and you'll have a few that rah-rah the union with blind loyality only worthy to be shown to God him/herself or genderless if you prefer.

    Regarding the APWA, what hurts them is not the ideas and the thinking because in many respects it's a no-brainer and if there was a completely clean slate, union speaking, at UPS and we had to decide on which union based on the real history of the Teamsters verses what is only potential of the APWA, I say most UPSers would at the least give strong consideration to the APWA concept because again, there is no track record or connnection, nothing vested especially moneywise, any of us have with either entity. I mentioned Teamster's history because they do exist beyond UPS whereas APWA doesn't. Even the UPSers I've talked with who aren't ready by any means to make the leap to APWA completely admit APWA would be a no brainer if we were non-union looking to go union.

    This is the situation you have at UPS Freight and the prior troubles at Overnight with the Teamsters did leave some bad tastes in some Overnight hourlies' mouths. I still believe UPS Freight presents a grand opportunity to gain that track record they so badly need and to also show the rest of us what is possible beyond the IBT. The one thing I've learned from my employment at UPS and membership in the IBT is never allow nobody other than yourself to control the direction of you retirement monies being place aside for you. Only real answer to retirement IMO is all monies go into employee's 401k and nothing less than that but I think APWA idea has more chance than the 401k idea. I agree I'm crazy but I'm a realistic kinda crazy! :tongue_sm

    If they (doesn't matter who they is)control it, they in some respects control you as well. I also think the $7k per month retirement is a big oversell and you'd have better luck of cutting in half and doing something more significant for those of us with 20 or more years closing in on the day we can hang it up at UPS. Why keep talking about $7k per month when it's a longshot over the longhaul for the newer, younger UPSer and an absolute impossible number for the many of us who have been around. The young UPS/Union member won't drive your effort but the one's who've been here will and you guys know this because most of us during our early years were so far from all of this it was/is almost meaningless. Why do you think the bonus money works so well with the younger UPSer. Been there, done that, gotta T-Shirt!

    Think about it my friend.

    As for Kum-bah-yah?

    Foul! Seperation of Church and State!!!!!
    :tongue_sm
     
  7. roadking

    roadking New Member

    wkmac, 7000.00 per month only seems like a long shoot because we have been trained that way. I made another post that stated what the maint. people get where I work, here it is in case you missed it: 8000.00 per month 30yrs any age... couldn't believe it myself, so after 3 months of working them one finally gave me his statement....10,054.00 per month he started at age 30 and at age 62 with no increase in contributions that is what he will get, on the same money we have put in over 30 yrs.(minus 800.00 some odd dollars, less than 30 dollars per year) I say good for them!!! They say we feel sorry for you guys, your getting ripped off. I do not want their pitty, but I deserve it if I don't make an effort to fix it. P.S. They belong to the IAM (machinist) you can check the web site IAM.org:mellow:
     
  8. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    roadking,
    I know we've been ripped off, no argument there but here's where the rubber meets the road. I've been a FT UPSer for 25 years and I'm 49 years old. Even if we went to APWA today and it's plan, please explain to me how I'll get $7k per month in retirement even if I work till I'm 65 or even 70 and before you even try let me tell you I'll already had this conversation with Van Skillman and he was honest enough from the very beginning to explain that it was impossible for me to ever draw $7k per month from any APWA plan or idea that he has seen. Another reason I respect Skillman is his year service and age are very near mine so we share very close cisrcumstances so even what he is doing he really won't benefit but he believes in the longer term for not only those of us in the same situation but younger and future UPSers who do stand a chance of greatly benefitting from the move.

    Why keep harping on something to me and others like me when there's no chance that we'd ever be able to realize those things to begin with. If that's all you've got to sell, then you've got nothing to sell as it pertains to me and those like me!
     
  9. over9five

    over9five Moderator Staff Member

    "...round of kum-bah-yah if you like...."

    I'm feelin' the luv....!
     
  10. roadking

    roadking New Member

    wkmac, not selling you anything just making the point that it was possible, only hope for you (and me 28yrs.) is if we get our funds from the pension fund, that will be the thing that will increase our retirement income. Not to mention living without the restrictions in regards to what we can do after we leave UPS, and a better health care situation. (like the people in local 100, Southwest, Oh. have ) 50 dollars per month, when people in my local pay well over 200.00:cool: Ps. the amount I should have with CS is approx. 340,000 dollars from 1993 to present! You do a great job of making sense of what can be a complicated subject, keep up the good work!
     
  11. opie

    opie Active Member

    Can't play the lottery here NJ! Our government is shut down!:scared:
     
  12. opie

    opie Active Member

    One thing that should be looked into is part-time pay. Most places start at $8.50/hr. And I believe this rate has been the same for 20+ years? I remember when I started and had orientation, they had a guy who had been there 20+ years. And back then he said there would be lines of people wanting to be hired, and if you were lucky/qualified you would get hired. But today they hire anyone, and they hire every week. Because most people don't want to work for low wages loading/unloading trailers. That is why most of the people who stay at UPS & work P/T are here for the benefits and/or possibility of getting a good FT job down the road etc...
     
  13. wonderboy

    wonderboy Guest


    I understand your point but I do think the process of improving all pension plans should include some good honest analysis as to why some plans have done so much better than others?
     
  14. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

  15. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    The bean counters at Glenlake think this $8 per hour thing is a golden egg but in time I believe it's a vastly more costly item than a higher starting wage. For ever new hire walking into the place going through the orientation process, last I heard the cost for the company per new hire was about $2k. Now if you have a high turnover rate and then if you look at all the extra monies being spent on gimicks to get people to come to work, work safely and in some cases to just do their job, it's quite a chunk of change being spent.

    Think about this scenario.
    Hi there Newhire, I'm Mr. UPS and have I got a deal for you today. We've got a great opportunity for you in that we want to give you the following job. Now from you, you'll have to work in very hot conditions in the summer and very cold in the winter because we really don't condition our air in our buildings. The cost is not effective to the bottomline you see. You'll also have to hand all types of packages up to 150 lbs. but you'll also have to remember lots of details like where the packages go coming into your load as it relates to the trailer you're loading. You'll also need to scan ever packages and remember the process for setting up your scanner correctly. In some cases we may require you to load multiple trailers which also requires you to know severla more functional steps with your scanner. We also do an extremely poor job of holding people accountable to come to work so we're almost always shorthanded so you'll be required to do the work of those who didn't show up. Just a little secret, but at $8 per hour it's hard to hold people accountable at that paylevel. I'll fully explain so you understand in a moment. To go along with what I've already covered, you also have to remember a bunch of safety stuff too. Now we've taken safety to a new level at UPS whereas most companies take a pretty common sense approach, we have lots of people working in our safety function who in order to justify showing they are doing something, come up with mindless ideas to comply with what they believe are the OSHA regulations. If you take the time to go to other industries with similar conditions, you find far less company nonsense and redtape but our people love justifying their jobs and their managers love it also because they now have more nonsense to use to justify another conference call. Conference calls and tree killing paper reports are upper managements means of justifying their time but back to you. You'll learn all that other stuff if you stay around for any length of time. I could go on and on but I'm sure you're itching to hear about the wonderful economic package we have. Now I can see you're a very healthy young person but we have a fantastic health and welfare program. I can see baring some tragic event that a doctor or dentist visit is not in your immeiate future at all and that's very good for the company because the less you go the better our bottomline. As to the pay? What a deal I have for you! Our starting wage is $8.50 and hour and once seniortiy is achieved you'll make $9 per hour so let me break it down for you. Our contract with the Teamsters requires a minimum 3.5 hour paid day and unless we can get away with it, you'll normally at least get that. The one exception gets back to our inability (you'll learn about this by experience too) to hold anyone accountable to come to work will work in your favor if you want more hours because many nights may actually be nearer 4 hours. So let's put this in dollars and cents. 4 hours times $9 is $36 per day so we're gonna require you to remember all kinds of useless nonsense that has little bearing to your job and at the same time require you to perform numerous functions beyond just moving the box. Now in moving the box you'll be horribly hot in the summer and very cold in the winter and in many cases you'll have inept supervisors who in fact really care less for the job than you do. You'll also have moments where the volume flow to your trailer will be 3 and 4 times what even UPS sez is max efficency for it's best loaders and the packages will pile up all over the floor around the trailer entrance. Now don't fret, someone will only come by and scream about picking up the pace and getting the floor clean because of safety egress issues but non one will offer any help because remember that inept supervisor doesn't maintain his Pittsburg forms so no one if held accountable to come to work so that you're always shorthanded. They don't even pull up the electronic copy from the time clock system unless the Sort management gets frustrated enough with being shorthanded all the time and demands it. Rarely happens however.

    OK, so your getting $36 a day pay so here's how it breaks out. First off, right off the top you're gonna loose 7.5% to Social Security so that takes almost $3 off the top so now you're down to $33. From that you'll loose more for medicare, federal and state taxes so now you're down to the mid to upper $20's. Now gas is around $3 per gallon and with traffic and wear and tear on the vehicle, you might knock off another $5 plus bucks so I think we've finally got down to a net figure to work with.

    OK, because of distance and traffic you've got to leave for work a good hour before your start time but luckily that time is about half on the return trip home. So you'll have to give up about 6 hours of your day but the return on investment is really good. For your 6 hours of time and toil we're gonna give you a net of about $20.

    WOW! WHAT A DEAL!

    Sign here and begin the good life today!

    Now back to reality.
    OK, on the one hand it's somewhat over the top and a bit humorous too but at the same time there's lots of truth in what I said as well. In a 4 hour sort span your gonna pay $20 to someone for the time and effort. They could hangout with the illegal immigrants doing day labor work for cash making 5 to 7 times as much money and in many cases the conditions wouldn't be as bad. If the Federal gov't does raise the minimum wage (hey even republicans aren't beyond using political ploys for votes so don't think they'll hold the line on this) to $6.75 as it's been debated, UPS will now come very close to competing with other minimum wages jobs out there so first off, where will the best people go? Of what's left over, where will they go if given a choice? If you were in their shoes, where would you go? Now, with what's left for us this is the bottomline. Where do our future drivers come from? Where do our Pt supervisors come from? Where do we boast our mangement comes from? Why is UPS more and more going outside the in house ranks to hire management trainees who have no clue what a UPS operation is all about?

    Glenlake better talk to it's operational level management and learn what most of them have realized concerning the part timer pay scale as even FedEx pays it's pt time workforce more than UPS does. Go talk to them to find out if you don't believe me.
     
  16. trickpony1

    trickpony1 Well-Known Member

    Wkmac,
    You're right.
    When I was a preloader, back in the late 70's, I was making somewhere between $12-$15 PER HOUR (can't really remember exact amount) and there was very little turn over. I loaded 3, not 5, pkg cars. One of which was a military base.
    I see groups of PT people being led through the tour of the hub frequently. Retention of these people is a big issue at our hub.
     
  17. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Discussed many times. The fact remains that part timers do not represent at the union hall. They do not demand and therefore they often end up getting less perhaps then they could have gotten if they would actually show up at the meetings. I have some of the same concerns about who we hire at 8.50 an hour but at the same time I have a couple of kids who have entered the job market. The pay they recieve is about the same and once in there are no pay increases coming in regular intervals. So while I have some concerns I have to admit that we at least are not behind the general market in entry level positions and with benifits included are still ahead of most employers.
     
  18. old levi's

    old levi's I use to care... but things have changed

    tieguy, Would you want your kids working at ups in an entry level position?
     
  19. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

     
  20. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Hey Tie,
    Here's something to consider as I'm pretty certain you are familar with the automated small sort so therefore some automation experience. At the present wages the union can feel safe in not having to compete with replacing union employees on the inside with automation. The cost of automation verses the low wage revolving door is in the union's favor and the Glenlake bean counters will run to the money evey time and the union knows this. Raise the entry level wage thus raising the longer term costs down the line and all of a sudden the manual verse automated gap grows ever so closer. Don't get me wrong, the union isn't alone on this as the company because of the money loves it too and can use the union as convient cover. FedEx Ground's network is being built on an automated frame and this gives them a leg up on the labor standpoint to some degree.

    Automation doesn't always completely eliminate people as Worldport can prove but it can provide a more skilled job base that then does attach more employees who have more to loose. They look at the job with more of a personal investment outlook. A $20 a day person has little if anything to loose and thus another reason once on the payroll you have a constant battle with lates and absenteeism. Even a good employee starting out will fall into the same pattern when all around him/her are given carte blanche to do it. Give the person a chance to make twice or 3 times that much money and the lifestyle goes up and the risks of not showing up impacting that lifestyle get much greater. You won't eliminate unwanted absenteeism because it's still to easy to burn an option day, yeah I said it, but once the days are burned overall you see that abuse dry up.