I Knock Over Your Block Tower, a Metaphor For Socialism

[rickyb]

You are putting all the woes of government onto an economic system.
I’m thinking what is the most productive, successful economic system? It’s free markets. Once you arrive at that you begin discussing what social welfare your economic system can realistically support.

Communist societies had horrible results economically and had to begin privatizing * before everyone ended up dead. You’re naive Ricky.

yea but we have wall street planning and cannibalizing the economy and its destroying it. in addition, imperialism is breaking up worker self managed economies which michael hudson mentioned in italy.

 

[vantexan]

It moved them forward dramatically in almost every way. I think the argument is would capitalism have brought them to the same point or better. I would say yes, but it would have taken a much, much, much longer time to do so.

Tell that to all the folk standing in line for some cheese they heard had come in as opposed to Americans going into pretty much any supermarket and trying to decide which cheese to buy. Not to mention everything else on stocked shelves as opposed to the mostly bare shelves of the typical Russian store. There's a reason the Soviet Union collapsed.

 

[rickyb]

Tell that to all the folk standing in line for some cheese they heard had come in as opposed to Americans going into pretty much any supermarket and trying to decide which cheese to buy. Not to mention everything else on stocked shelves as opposed to the mostly bare shelves of the typical Russian store. There's a reason the Soviet Union collapsed.

Usa in the process of collapsing too probably for many of the same reasons

 

[vantexan]

Usa in the process of collapsing too probably for many of the same reasons

Our system allows us to recover.

 

[rickyb]

Our system allows us to recover.

Michael Hudson would say you guys have been in a long-term crash. And we're headed towards neo-feudalism. quite often you don't get Freedom of Choice like for example your public transit system pretty restrictive it's mostly left to private automobiles. Not to mention you guys have all kinds of monopolies

 

[SLW]

Tell that to all the folk standing in line for some cheese they heard had come in as opposed to Americans going into pretty much any supermarket and trying to decide which cheese to buy. Not to mention everything else on stocked shelves as opposed to the mostly bare shelves of the typical Russian store. There's a reason the Soviet Union collapsed.

I think you're confusing my point. I'm saying it was a definite material improvement from tsarist Russia, not that it was superior to Western Capitalism.

 

[vantexan]

I think you're confusing my point. I'm saying it was a definite material improvement from tsarist Russia, not that it was superior to Western Capitalism.

In terms of them no longer being serfs, true. To say that Western capitalism would have taken much, much longer to bring them to a point that wasn't that great to begin with, I disagree. I saw for myself in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine, and Georgia how far and how quickly people could advance if given the opportunity. And would be much more advanced without having to start from scratch after decades of being dominated by the Russians who took what little wealth there was for themselves.

 

[PT 4 Life]

I think you're confusing my point. I'm saying it was a definite material improvement from tsarist Russia, not that it was superior to Western Capitalism.

A lot of Russians feel their was a method to Stalin madness. Trotsky would’ve been the better candidate, but Stalin connected more with the people. Stalin was the muscle and trotsky was the brain.

 

[PT 4 Life]

Worker unions are great but it also gives losers a reason to be losers

Yeah, like anything people will find a way to abuse the system. I’ve always worked Union jobs and have witnessed ty workers keep their jobs because of the Union.

 

[vantexan]

A lot of Russians feel their was a method to Stalin madness. Trotsky would’ve been the better candidate, but Stalin connected more with the people. Stalin was the muscle and trotsky was the brain.

And Trotsky got assassinated in Mexico. Never be a threat to the muscle.

 

[rickyb]

Yeah, like anything people will find a way to abuse the system. I’ve always worked Union jobs and have witnessed *ty workers keep their jobs because of the Union.

ive always felt like unions werent good enough, that there was still something fundamentally wrong with the economic system regardless.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

@rickyb, I've taken your advice to listen to more Sowell and Freeman. I only ever saw a little bit from both before, and I have to say, thanks for constantly bringing them up. You're absolutely right, those guys are geniuses. Everything they say is spot on. Hedges, Nader and Chomsky could really learn a lot from those two. Thanks again.

 

[rickyb]

@rickyb, I've taken your advice to listen to more Sowell and Freeman. I only ever saw a little bit from both before, and I have to say, thanks for constantly bringing them up. You're absolutely right, those guys are geniuses. Everything they say is spot on. Hedges, Nader and Chomsky could really learn a lot from those two. Thanks again.

nice to see ur getting persepective keeping an open mind and not guided by fear

 

[zubenelgenubi]

nice to see ur getting persepective keeping an open mind and not guided by fear

Lol. I always knew you didn't actually read other people's posts. Can you do me a favor and say something insulting about Xi Jinping?

 

[rickyb]

Lol. I always knew you didn't actually read other people's posts. Can you do me a favor and say something insulting about Xi Jinping?

yea america is looking more like china by the day. listen to snowden.

 

[PCM Troll]

capitalism = the workers take orders undemocratically building the tower many getting injured, or wage theft, but they are likely inherintly getting ripped off because otherwise the capitalist wouldnt hire them in the first place, and then the capitalist sells it and makes all the money.

socialism = the workers collectively decide on how to build the tower and collectively decide what to do with the profits. they may also be unionized. the power is more evenly distributed under this system, and the risk is more spread as far as the monetary investment is concerned. and o yea this already exists, 25000 of some version of this in italy. they exist in america including being run by republicans who are clueless that they are sortve carrying out what karl marx envisioned.

Except socialists are not willing to put their own money into any investments and socialists don't want to work because they've already been told it should be "free". Besides once they actually do invest their own money and work hard to make a profit, they become a capitalist. Socialism will not and cannot work in the real world because people are too lazy, too greedy, and too damn selfish for it to ever work. So stop telling others how to think and live. Just because your miserable and your life sucks doesn't mean everyone else's should too.

 

[rickyb]

Except socialists are not willing to put their own money into any investments and socialists don't want to work because they've already been told it should be "free". Besides once they actually do invest their own money and work hard to make a profit, they become a capitalist. Socialism will not and cannot work in the real world because people are too lazy, too greedy, and too damn selfish for it to ever work. So stop telling others how to think and live. Just because your miserable and your life sucks doesn't mean everyone else's should too.

investing your own money and working hard to make a profit doesnt define capitalism.

many republicans practice socialism in silicon valley by running their own cooperatives democratically coming to work in hawaian shirt and shorts, with babeis and dogs and yet they are oblivious its socialism because we our understanding of economics is so poor. its ironic.

 

[rickyb]

Except socialists are not willing to put their own money into any investments and socialists don't want to work because they've already been told it should be "free". Besides once they actually do invest their own money and work hard to make a profit, they become a capitalist. Socialism will not and cannot work in the real world because people are too lazy, too greedy, and too damn selfish for it to ever work. So stop telling others how to think and live. Just because your miserable and your life sucks doesn't mean everyone else's should too.

btw u know what system doesnt work but appears to work? capitalism. not sure what reforms are needed to keep global warming at 1.5 degrees but unsustainable as is. it is a throw away culture and a system which currently com modifies everything including itself.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

 

[vantexan]

Usa in the process of collapsing too probably for many of the same reasons

Over a year later. Haven't collapsed yet.