Immigration

[hoser]

Interesting....this is from way back in 1907....

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907. "In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because o friend creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

I really disagree with this. You need balance, and there is none here. The great thing about the USA is individualism and freedom to expression, and this statement just goes against that. I love the USA because a Egyptian can immigrate to the USA and call himself an American. That can never happen in France.

Let the Immigrants come, let them call themselves American, but don't say that they should shed their identity. That they shouldn't wear hajibs, they shouldn't speak Japanese, and that they're 'disloyal' because of this.

A lot of these people that immigrate here WANT the American way of life, but it's pretentious/European to say that they should forget their roots in this paradigm of "pledging allegiance". This is nothing but a Dutch style of immigration, which is simply backwards and un-American.

We're quite a melting pot now.

You think? The USA anthem was sung in Spanish and I didn't see it as more of a headline for more than a week. Do that in Europe and elections would be based on that issue. Mexicans can go around the street in Houston waving the Mexican flag without a second glance. You can't do that in Sweden.

USA is a Mosaik IMO. They say Canada is, and I don't see much difference between the integration of immigrants in these cultures.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I really disagree with this. You need balance, and there is none here. The great thing about the USA is individualism and freedom to expression, and this statement just goes against that. I love the USA because a Egyptian can immigrate to the USA and call himself an American. That can never happen in France.

Let the Immigrants come, let them call themselves American, but don't say that they should shed their identity. That they shouldn't wear hajibs, they shouldn't speak Japanese, and that they're 'disloyal' because of this.

A lot of these people that immigrate here WANT the American way of life, but it's pretentious/European to say that they should forget their roots in this paradigm of "pledging allegiance". This is nothing but a Dutch style of immigration, which is simply backwards and un-American.


You think? The USA anthem was sung in Spanish and I didn't see it as more of a headline for more than a week. Do that in Europe and elections would be based on that issue. Mexicans can go around the street in Houston waving the Mexican flag without a second glance. You can't do that in Sweden.

USA is a Mosaik IMO. They say Canada is, and I don't see much difference between the integration of immigrants in these cultures.

Immigration is such as touchy issue. My wife is an illegal alien (not for much longer though) and it's still a little frustrating at times. She doesnt recieve govt. benefits. Nor has she commited any crimes other than crossing the border many years ago. I don't fault them for going to such extremes, such as traveling through the desert, dealing with Coyotes, murderers, rapists, and the crooked Mexican Army, just to come here and take manual labor jobs. Many people say "I just want them to do it legaly" but I know that many that say that don't really care about the legality of it. It's more of a class issue. They see these people as a threat to their middle and upper class way of life. They simply don't wan't third worlders in their neighborhoods. It's funny because they arent even trying to move into these areas. The illegals tend to move into areas that were already resembling third world countrys because it's cheaper. They aren't a threat to the middle and upper class. The only reason they'll ever see an illegal in their areas is if they call for a landscaper or carpenter. LOL.

Even as a husband of an an illegal immigrant I must say there are waaay too many and it's our govt's fault as much as it is their fualt. Stop the flow of govt funds and stop the gangs and what we will be left with is workers. Gangs such as MS13 could have been stopped years ago but we dropped the ball on that one too. I could go on and on about this but it's such as touchy issue it doesn't really matter what one says. People already have their minds made up.

 

[hoser]

Immigration is such as touchy issue. My wife is an illegal alien (not for much longer though) and it's still a little frustrating at times. She doesnt recieve govt. benefits. Nor has she commited any crimes other than crossing the border many years ago. I don't fault them for going to such extremes, such as traveling through the desert, dealing with Coyotes, murderers, rapists, and the crooked Mexican Army, just to come here and take manual labor jobs. Many people say "I just want them to do it legaly" but I know that many that say that don't really care about the legality of it. It's more of a class issue. They see these people as a threat to their middle and upper class way of life. They simply don't wan't third worlders in their neighborhoods. It's funny because they arent even trying to move into these areas. The illegals tend to move into areas that were already resembling third world countrys because it's cheaper. They aren't a threat to the middle and upper class. The only reason they'll ever see an illegal in their areas is if they call for a landscaper or carpenter. LOL.

Even as a husband of an an illegal immigrant I must say there are waaay too many and it's our govt's fault as much as it is their fualt. Stop the flow of govt funds and stop the gangs and what we will be left with is workers. Gangs such as MS13 could have been stopped years ago but we dropped the ball on that one too. I could go on and on about this but it's such as touchy issue it doesn't really matter what one says. People already have their minds made up.

yuh huh.

like the iraq thing, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[brazenbrown]

I really disagree with this. You need balance, and there is none here. The great thing about the USA is individualism and freedom to expression, and this statement just goes against that. I love the USA because a Egyptian can immigrate to the USA and call himself an American. That can never happen in France.

Where does the freedom of expression get duped? Becoming an American does not interfere with your freedom of expression, in fact with freedom of speech you have all kinds of way to express yourself you might not have had before. To assimilate into a society effectively as an immigrant you must abide by that Country's rules.

My goodness we have China town, little Italy, Korea Town...ect..ect. Wouldn't you say that that is freedom of expression?? These places are hardly discriminated against. In fact they are adored for the different experiences and flourish because of their melting pot expressions we so enjoy.

Anyone who comes to America has the option to go back to where they came from if they're not happy with the way they are able to express themselves here.

Let the Immigrants come, let them call themselves American, but don't say that they should shed their identity. That they shouldn't wear hajibs, they shouldn't speak Japanese, and that they're 'disloyal' because of this.

Immigrants or at least their head of household should be required to speak the language of this Country, ENGLISH. We already print out directions, post signs, make on announcements, etc in several different languages. That should only be temporary until they assimilate into our society and have made an effort to learn the language.

A lot of these people that immigrate here WANT the American way of life, but it's pretentious/European to say that they should forget their roots in this paradigm of "pledging allegiance". This is nothing but a Dutch style of immigration, which is simply backwards and un-American.

If their roots are so important than what the hell are they here for?
As mentioned above nobody is invading China Town and telling them to go back to China now are they??? People can and do freely express themselves. America also has freedom of religion, this is the land of the free..

You think? The USA anthem was sung in Spanish and I didn't see it as more of a headline for more than a week. Do that in Europe and elections would be based on that issue. Mexicans can go around the street in Houston waving the Mexican flag without a second glance. You can't do that in Sweden.

I beg to differ...Some of the ungrateful Illegal aliens did that here in Los Angeles their first march and quickly got educated on the Political Correctness of that blunder and ever since have been using American Flags. What a disgrace to America to have illegals parading around like they have rights. After all they broke the law to get here.

You see, it's not a racist thing or a I hate immigrant's thing. It's a number's thing (too many people, too fast) and when you come to this Country Illegally, break the law and feel entitled to have anchor babies, smuggle drugs, clog up our emergency rooms, create over crowding problems in our schools, don't pay your fair share of taxes and send home billions of American dollars, and then have the nerve to hold up a Mexican flag like this is freaking Mexico.. that's just not cool in fact it's loco!!

If we don't control the way this is going then we will just end up another poor third world country... Then maybe we'll have to migrate somewhere else if there's any place left.

USA is a Mosaik IMO. They say Canada is, and I don't see much difference between the integration of immigrants in these cultures.

The Mosaik needs some time to get it's crap together (too many people Illegal and Legal too fast) so it can remain a beautiful and desirable Country for many years to come.

 

[moreluck]

The ILLEGAL immigrants put such a strain on our systems that the REAL citizens don't get much needed services.

I've seen reductions in college tuition for aliens and then the kids that live in state are paying out the nose for a college education......OR....they aren't going because they can't afford it.

If all of our systems weren't so strained, there would be enough $$$ for free medical care for all REAL citizens and free college education too for anyone who wanted one.

It's messed up!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

All the money the govt wastes on illegal aliens would still be wasted on something else if they weren't here. So...why worry about it? LOL.

 

[SeniorGeek]

From The Wall Street Journal, in an editorial by Peggy Noonan:

This White House thinks its base is stupid and that its heart is in the wrong place.

For almost three years, arguably longer, conservative Bush supporters have felt like sufferers of battered wife syndrome. You don't like endless gushing spending, the kind that assumes a high and unstoppable affluence will always exist, and the tax receipts will always flow in? Too bad! You don't like expanding governmental authority and power? Too bad. You think the war was wrong or is wrong? Too bad.

But on immigration it has changed from "Too bad" to "You're bad." The president has taken to suggesting that opponents of his immigration bill are unpatriotic--they "don't want to do what's right for America." His ally Sen. Lindsey Graham has said, "We're gonna tell the bigots to shut up." On Fox last weekend he vowed to "push back." Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff suggested opponents would prefer illegal immigrants be killed; Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said those who oppose the bill want "mass deportation." Former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson said those who oppose the bill are "anti-immigrant" and suggested they suffer from "rage" and "national chauvinism."

I do not agree with all she says, but I am glad that someone in the mainstream media is recognizing that the GOP has been hijacked.

Now conservatives and Republicans are going to have to win back their party. They are going to have to break from those who have already broken from them. This will require courage, serious thinking and an ability to do what psychologists used to call letting go. This will be painful, but it's time. It's more than time.

 

[wkmac]

BrazenBrown,

Nice link my friend. Sometime back I saw a piece on TV about immigration (both legal and illegal) and the suggestion at the time was that the core or "Stock" population to use Mr. Beck's terms was going negative and the influx was what was moving the US total population forward. Mr. Beck's numbers seem to suggest this very thing although his threashhold seems another 20 years out and maybe his numbers are right or I misheard the other guy as this problem being more contemporary.

His examples I must admit do catch your attention but one thing I've noticed in the video as I have in real life. Both White and Black Americans are growing more and more concerned about this issue. Ironic that such an issue might end up a galvaning force to bring these 2 groups together in the political and social realm. At the same time I think now we are beginning to see how the American Indian must have felt 400 years ago and the regret they must feel now that they didn't kill the pilgrims. IMO, we owe the American Indian such a huge debt of gratitude that we will never be able to repay.

I also think it sad that from the posts above the only one to watch it was Cheryl. I think had the others done the same the following posts would have been about the video link instead of taking pop shots at one another.

Thanks again Brazen. Very nice Job!

 

[wkmac]

Ron Paul comments on the Immigration bill

https://web.archive.org/web/20070703073552/http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul389.html


To be honest I really didn't see the 2nd amendment connection until I actually went to Gun Owners of America's website for their take.

OK, whether real or imagine, just forget that for the moment because here's the reality. The ultra rightees boy Bush is in reality a change agent and is working for the other side. Proof? Well Ted Kennedy's agenda in front and center in the legislation (this happens all the time to fool the masses)and whose out here selling the whole thing with all his might? None other than Captain Wonderful from Texas himself and he's has his storebought conservative spokesman Tony Snow all week hitting the talk shows that service the repub. base trying his might to get the masses to drink the coolaid.

How do you guys keep seeing time and time again where he betrays America and it's core values but follow him blindly into the darkest of night on Iraq? The dems are no better granted but geez wake up before it's too late and I happen to believe it is but you guys way outnumber me so I must be wrong. Majority rules!

Do you ever wonder why your a#s hurts so bad all the time and when you turn around to look behind you, standing there is someone from the gov't with a smile on their face? I'm noticing more and more of them with "I Love GW" buttons on their lapels too. I even think I saw Kennedy wearing one as he seems to be batting 1000 in getting Bush to do his dirty work! Education, Prescription drugs and now this. Did I miss the memo that Bush switched parties?

Wake UP SUCKA'S!

 

[osustuident]

Bush hit a trifecta w/ this piece of legislation. Destroy the Republican party, Social Security, and Medicare.

 

[SeniorGeek]

Ron Paul comments on the Immigration bill

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul389.html

Additionally, one of the most absurd incentives for people to come to the US illegally is the promise of instant US citizenship to anyone born on our soil. That is why when Congress returns next week I will be re-introducing my Constitutional amendment to deny automatic citizenship to individuals born on US soil to parents who are not US citizens or who do not owe permanent allegiance to the United States.

I hope his proposal is more compact and readable than the current not-even-a-bill-yet proposal.

Reading this one-paragraph description, I began to wonder if Paul's proposal will make it so my birth certificate will not be enough to show I am a citizen. Will I have to prove citizenship of one or both of my parents? Will that require proof of citizenship of one to four of my grandparents? Maybe some national system of registration will have to be established, to simplify the pedigree process and make it easier to determine who can be a citizen.

With that national database of citizens, we won't have to put up with quite so many requests of "Show me your papers, please". We could just get a barcode or something.

Many countries do not automatically grant citizenship to the native born, but I think they grant permanent resident rights to anyone native born. Otherwise, they would be creating people who are not citizens of any country - would they be called "philistines"?

To be honest I really didn't see the 2nd amendment connection until I actually went to Gun Owners of America's website for their take.

They recognize that power we give to our government is likely to eventually be used against us!

...
How do you guys keep seeing time and time again where he betrays America and it's core values but follow him blindly into the darkest of night on Iraq? The dems are no better.... Did I miss the memo that Bush switched parties?

When there are two sides of the same coin, each side thnks the other side is a rectal orifice. They do not care to see how much they are alike.

I found a line by P.J. O'Rourke that describes one difference between our two major parties:
"The Democrats are the party of government activism, the party that says government can make you richer, smarter, taller, and get the chickweed out of your lawn.
Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then get elected and prove it."

 

[wkmac]

and get the chickweed out of your lawn.

BY GOD THEY GOT MY VOTE! And if they can do something about wild violets, I'll even join their stinking party!

Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then get elected and prove it."

ROTFFLMAO!!!!!!
I'm gonna be laughing at that one for the rest of the day. Man that was good!

 

[wkmac]

Bush hit a trifecta w/ this piece of legislation. Destroy the Republican party, Social Security, and Medicare.

Actually I think they believe just the opposite in that immigration will save it. The American stock population is declining (that's fact) with an ever increasing amount of the core hitting retirement and the SS and medicare payment window. If nothing is done, both will find themselves to be the next manifestation of a federal version of the Central States crisis. An influx or legal and illegal worker bees in their belief pump monies back into those coffers and in many cases no future payouts meaning to them free money. The problem is folks like Lou Dobbs, the gentleman at BrazenBrown's video link, etc. are showing where the real costs of this is located elsewhere in our society and the longterm damage may be nothing compared to what a sinking medicare or SS system would cost if we let that happen in the near future.

These guys have proven on many fronts to be willing to pay much bigger later in order to do little now.

I really do think PJ has it right about both parties but especially the repubs when he said:

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then get elected and prove it."

JMO

Senior, there I go laughing again! See what you did!

 

[brazenbrown]

BrazenBrown,

Nice link my friend. Sometime back I saw a piece on TV about immigration (both legal and illegal) and the suggestion at the time was that the core or "Stock" population to use Mr. Beck's terms was going negative and the influx was what was moving the US total population forward. Mr. Beck's numbers seem to suggest this very thing although his threashhold seems another 20 years out and maybe his numbers are right or I misheard the other guy as this problem being more contemporary.

Thanks!

To achieve an environmentally sustainable society, we need to be reducing immigration numbers to a level that will allow the U.S. population to stabilize. We also need to stop illegal immigration.

And
by Roy Beck
June 2006 :

"The courageous heroes on the world scene are not those men and women in poor countries who have the energy, the intelligence, and the skills to escape to a rich country but rather those remaining with their people. Rather than focus on improving conditions for themselves and their families by emigrating, they strive to raise the conditions for whole communities."
I'd have to say amen to that!

His examples I must admit do catch your attention but one thing I've noticed in the video as I have in real life. Both White and Black Americans are growing more and more concerned about this issue. Ironic that such an issue might end up a galvaning force to bring these 2 groups together in the political and social realm. At the same time I think now we are beginning to see how the American Indian must have felt 400 years ago and the regret they must feel now that they didn't kill the pilgrims. IMO, we owe the American Indian such a huge debt of gratitude that we will never be able to repay.

Personally I think it should bring all Americans together regardless of race or political standing. Having the influx of people coming into this Country at an alarming rate should concern all of us. If this continues it will affect all socioeconomic levels and change our Country dramatically.

WE MUST SECURE OUR BORDERS!!

I also think it sad that from the posts above the only one to watch it was Cheryl. I think had the others done the same the following posts would have been about the video link instead of taking pop shots at one another.

Thanks again Brazen. Very nice Job!

Ain't that the truth!!

 

[SeniorGeek]

Immigration by the numbers

More amazing numbers that will blow you away.

He uses some of the classic methods described in the book, How to Lie With Statistics. (The actual purpose of the book is How to Keep From Being Deceived by Statistics.) I'm not saying that there is no problem, but he is exaggerating, misrepresenting and overstating the statistics.

He cuts the bottom off the graph - 200,000,000 looks like zero. This exaggerates the size of any change.

He uses solid coloring of what should be a line graph, another technique which exaggerates changes.

Just those two methods make the problem appear 5 to 10 times bigger than the numbers he presents.

He picks two points of information to extrapolate into a straight-line trend - using 1973 and 1993 as two points to create the top line (filled with red). If he had used 1973 and 1995 (for example), the red area would have been much smaller. The US Census already has released information that is newer than 1993 - and the line began to curve down - but why does he ignore the more-recent facts?

He uses a different method for his baseline (green area). That line curves in the future, so it must be based on a different type of projection.

The gumballs are a creative version of "cutting the bottom off of the graph" and using the "fill-in-the-area" method. If that is a 5-gallon jar of gumballs representing the world population, there should be ~42 ounces of gumballs already in the US container. That would require a much larger brandy snifter.

Those are just the deceptions I recognize, after having read the book (How to Lie With Statistics) long ago, as assigned in college.


In addition to his misrepresentation of statistics, there is some other sly deception going on.

Some second- and third-generation US-born citizens are included in the "red zone" of his graph. (If we move his concept back in time, so the present day is at the end of the graph, someone born in 1978, whose grandparents or great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents immigrated after WWI, would count in the red.)

He says we've "...had to build twice as many schools..." as if we have had to double the number of schools. More accurate would be "twice as many additional schools".

After presenting his conjecture, subjective interpretation of numbers and a prediction for the future, he says, "This is not conjecture, this is not subjective, this is not what might be, this is what will be...." He should apply his skills to mutual funds, since they always wimp out by saying that past performance is not a guarantee of future results.

He says that a tight labor market was what gave us a middle-class society. Yet his "Golden Era" includes The Depression (with the loosest labor market I know of) and WWII (with the tightest labor market and no gain in middle class).

If a tight labor market is good for the middle class, and welfare programs remove people from the labor market, is welfare good for the middle class?

The growth of the middle class happened during the post-WWII era, an era of high taxes and huge government spending on domestic projects. This was also an era when we had a Guest Worker program that allowed workers from Mexico to legally enter the US for seasonal work. That was when the middle class grew.

He is careful to keep the "...if..." disclaimers on his statements, so a full transcript will show that he is not outright lying. He is exaggerating in order to get people to act, but I suspect he may have a specific set of recommendations ready-to-go, to take advantage of any knee-jerk reaction created by his hype. And I wonder what might be hidden in his recommendations....

So, my recommendation is to examine any plan that is offered, and to be careful about the details. (We've already seen that gun dealers are somehow related to illegal immigration law.) Do we need more laws? Do we need to increase the penalties in laws that already do not work? Do we need to repeal some existing laws? I do not have pat answers.

 

[wkmac]

Senior,
No argument that people do stretch things to make their points and some do more than others. We've adapted in public life what lawyers do in court (watching to many lawyer shows on TV I guess ) and that is to sell the evidence that promotes their position and so then sit or suppress the evidence that does the opposite. How many folks have been found innocent because a prosecutor sat on hard evidence (Duke players come to mind) he/she knew would prove the innocence of the condemned and there are defense lawyers who knew their client was guilty but they got them off anyway. It happens all the time. How many of us here (all of us) post something knowing good and well there's an equally good opposing point or idea that is contary to what we are suggesting? We just happen to like one side of the argument more than the other and that's just human nature. What do people generally want to do when they have a neighbor who's a real pain and won't stop stepping over into your yard? Build a fence, a big one if possible because "I like my world and don't want you in it!" The secure border idea if the fence for the yard just on a grander scale. Human nature again.

The point and this should be the focus no matter what is that there is a problem and in some areas it's worse and harder on local infrastructure than in others. Those are the facts. The real question is where do we go from here and what is the solution that would be fair, equitible to all and still maintain the spirit of freedom and liberty to all?

As a classic liberal if you will I happen to believe that all borders are wrong and that people should be free to move about and come and go as they see fit as long as they don't violate the life, liberty or property of another human being. Now that said however, in our world I have tax dollars taken from me by deadly force (yes deadly force because if I refuse to pay, that option is left open to the gov't to collect if need be) and that money then is supposed to be used to help our fellow citizens in varying degrees under so called public policy. On top of that, we have a gov't refusing fiscal constraints on it's spending placing even more pressure on taxpayers and even threatening the very people those tax dollars had gone to in the past to help so IMO both ends of the spectrum will and are suffering. If given the choice of my tax dollars going to pay for federal aid to an illegal alien or to help pay for someone in New Orleans who is a citizen to rebuild, New Orleans wins in my book going away and I'm totally opposed to both ideas in the first place because I don't believe this is what a federal gov't should do and in my perfect world it wouldn't exist. Don't worry, I'm the only maroon who exists in "my perfect world" so don't get in a twist.

Yes, we have a problem and yes there will be folks who step up and profit from it's manipulation on bothsides of the issue but the question remains, what is the root reason they come here in the first place and what has the gov't done to help change that mind set? I personally believe and I think a lot of people feel the same that the reasons and the solution to the problem lie in Mexico and further south with the political and economic conditions and not so much the cure being a wall along the Rio Grande.

JMO

Brazen,
On the issue of race, I tend to agree on principle but in reality in the last 40 years African Americans have accelerated with great speed into the American Middle class and even the upper middle class and as such both black and white have forged more and more into it's own culture having adopted from each to form a hybrid if you will. As a result a level of comfort has also entered the mix and folks are pretty happy overall at where they are at. Right or wrong, both now see a new presense on the rise that accept for small cases have maintained itself seperate and unique to it's culture and social beliefs. Now they fear having this new pressure on the scene could effect and threaten that level of comfort they've worked long and hard for and so now you see these 2 sides coming together to address the believed threat. Having grown up as a kid seeing segregation and the divide that once existed just sticks out so big as we've come so far from what we once were and it's just ironic the issue that is bringing us more and more together.

My neighbor who is a police officer was telling me about the dramatic increase in gang activity and most of it is hispanic gangs marking new turf. What is shocking if not almost humorous is the fact that a number of African American gangs who've controlled the local turfs for years are calling the police with hot tips to get the hispanic gangs busted so the weirdness of the situation is that the African American gangbangers are becoming the eyes and ears of the police to an extent because in their own way they see this as a threat. I've also heard in the prisons where there is a hispanic gang presense that instead of it being the black/white thing it's black/hispanic and in some cases the whites have sided with the blacks. If it wasn't so sad all the way around it just might be comical.

 

[brazenbrown]

Boy, you guys have loonnnggggg posts!!

I'm more of a to the point kinda guy.

Senior:

You attack the person rather than the issue...He did this, he did that, he's a professional liar, yada, yada, yada. I'd have to consider that an ad hominem attack, attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

The fact is we have a problem and discrediting reality in your way does not do our crisis any justice!!

Mac:

You made some points regarding people stretching things, and people making their own points of view knowing there is another opposite and equally compelling argument..

You made an even better point in my opinion by saying:

"The point and this should be the focus no matter what is that there is a problem and in some areas it's worse and harder on local infrastructure than in others. Those are the facts. The real question is where do we go from here and what is the solution that would be fair, equitible to all and still maintain the spirit of freedom and liberty to all?"

This is true but in my opinion but needs to be stepped up a few levels in intensity.

We need a fence because this isn't the 1950's any longer. Illegals are coming over the border and so are the terrorist. We fight the war in Iraq and other places in the world and leave our own borders wide open. It does not make sense in the most backward of ways. Especially with a people that want us dead no matter what they need to do to achieve it.

It is important for those brave souls in other countries to move forward making their own countries a better place to live, giving them hope and prosperity in their own land.

As you saw...we can take a million or rather millions of immigrants every year and it won't really make a difference for their countries relief but it will damn sure ruin ours!! JMHO

 

[SeniorGeek]

...
Senior:

You attack the person rather than the issue...

By your apparent definition, you are making an ad hominem attack upon me.

He did this, he did that, he's a professional liar, yada, yada, yada. I'd have to consider that an ad hominem attack, attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

I thought I limited my critique to his words and actions. "He does this", describing an action I see, "he says this" describing words I hear.

I thought I edited out all the "yadas", too.

The fact is we have a problem and discrediting reality in your way does not do our crisis any justice!!

Do you find your own method of discrediting reality acceptable?

Yes, we have a problem. Better control of our borders will help. But it is short sighted to think that will be the solution.

 

[brazenbrown]

By your apparent definition, you are making an ad hominem attack upon me. I thought I limited my critique to his words and actions. "He does this", describing an action I see, "he says this" describing words I hear.

I thought I edited out all the "yadas", too.

Do you find your own method of discrediting reality acceptable?

Yes, we have a problem. Better control of our borders will help. But it is short sighted to think that will be the solution.

You're right, reality is subjective and my yada, yada was sarcastic. After reading my post again today it is evident to me that I posted out of frustration and even used the ad hominem attack on you. I apologize and will stick to better debate tactics in the future.

 

[SeniorGeek]

You're right, reality is subjective and my yada, yada was sarcastic. After reading my post again today it is evident to me that I posted out of frustration and even used the ad hominem attack on you. I apologize and will stick to better debate tactics in the future.

I did not see your words as an ad hominem attack upon me, just as my words were not an ad hominem attack on Roy Beck.

I don't mind sarcasm. My posts would be awfully short without it. If I can dish it out, I had better be ready to take some back....