Is Central States pension fund ready to go under?

[Bill]

If you are still not convinced that the pension fund (Central States) is in deep financial trouble, this factual report will open your eyes. All the numbers are factual and anyone can obtain these reports. The following numbers are copied off the annual reports from form 5500 Central States pension fund.

.............................2002...........2003..........2004..............2005
active participants....177,076......164,767......157,306..........156,744
retired....................176,453......179.089......180,746..........180,955
other retired.............78,202........81,134........86,272............86,213
deceased.................28,216........29,332........26,488............27,711
retired workers are those receiving benefits
other retired are those separated participants entitled to future benefits
deceased are the beneficiaries receiving or entitled to receive benefits

These numbers indicate that the active participants (those contributing) are dwindling each year, while the number of retirees receiving benefits are rising. This is an alarming trend. This translates to less money going in, and more going out. The pension plan is in such dire straights that it has literally become a sinking ship. At the current pace, future cuts are just around the corner. Now consider that all the additional money that UPS contributes each year on August 1, 2005, 2006, and 2007 is going into the pension plan (just to keep it temporarily afloat), and none is allocated for the medical fund. This is why we are paying much more for our medical benefits and further cuts are imminent. As medical costs soar, we are asked to pay more out of pocket. With no additional money to this fund, it is likely that we will soon be paying $200 per month to receive sub-standard medical benefits.
When are we going to wake up and say enough already? There is no reason that we should be hit with these cuts. After all, UPS gives more than enough to fully fund our medical and pension plans, but because we are in a multi-employee plan with other companies, our money is going to others who don't even work for UPS. We receive only 40% of the money that UPS contributes on our behalf. If we were to receive "all" the UPS money, we would have much better benefits and our pension would be at least 100% funded. This is the plan of the APWA. It is up to each of us to wise up and stop letting the Teamsters steal our money. Spread the word about the APWA, sign those petition cards, and get others to sign as well. The sooner we can accomplish this, the sooner we all benefit.

 

[UPS FREIGHT WORKER]

The apwa will have no rights to any of the money in the Cen states. How are you going to start a pension fund for all UPS workers with no money. UPS is not going to have to give you a red cent, and since the apwa will only weaken the union, they will have no clout to make UPS do anything. You will have no pension if you join the apwa! Can you prove that UPS will support a new pension for UPS union employees only? The answer is no! So you give up the pension you have now(no matter what the cuts are) for nothing!

 

[blaine]

100% signed up with apwa in my building

 

[Lizzard Toungue]

If you are still not convinced that the pension fund (Central States) is in deep financial trouble, this factual report will open your eyes. All the numbers are factual and anyone can obtain these reports. The following numbers are copied off the annual reports from form 5500 Central States pension fund.

.............................2002...........2003..........2004..............2005
active participants....177,076......164,767......157,306..........156,744
retired....................176,453......179.089......180,746..........180,955
other retired.............78,202........81,134........86,272............86,213
deceased.................28,216........29,332........26,488............27,711
retired workers are those receiving benefits
other retired are those separated participants entitled to future benefits
deceased are the beneficiaries receiving or entitled to receive benefits

These numbers indicate that the active participants (those contributing) are dwindling each year, while the number of retirees receiving benefits are rising. This is an alarming trend. This translates to less money going in, and more going out. The pension plan is in such dire straights that it has literally become a sinking ship. At the current pace, future cuts are just around the corner. Now consider that all the additional money that UPS contributes each year on August 1, 2005, 2006, and 2007 is going into the pension plan (just to keep it temporarily afloat), and none is allocated for the medical fund. This is why we are paying much more for our medical benefits and further cuts are imminent. As medical costs soar, we are asked to pay more out of pocket. With no additional money to this fund, it is likely that we will soon be paying $200 per month to receive sub-standard medical benefits.
When are we going to wake up and say enough already? There is no reason that we should be hit with these cuts. After all, UPS gives more than enough to fully fund our medical and pension plans, but because we are in a multi-employee plan with other companies, our money is going to others who don't even work for UPS. We receive only 40% of the money that UPS contributes on our behalf. If we were to receive "all" the UPS money, we would have much better benefits and our pension would be at least 100% funded. This is the plan of the APWA. It is up to each of us to wise up and stop letting the Teamsters steal our money. Spread the word about the APWA, sign those petition cards, and get others to sign as well. The sooner we can accomplish this, the sooner we all benefit.

Engineer 79, I believe you 100 percent. No one has ever given a serious challenge to your posts. Keep up the good work. LT

 

[wildgoose]

Engineer 79, I believe you 100 percent. No one has ever given a serious challenge to your posts. Keep up the good work. LT

Yeah Engineer 79 your educating the uneducated in this forum for sure . Keep up the great replys !

 

[Cezanne]

Let us get out the whole story if the Central States fund goes into the tank. AWPA indicated that it would have to get it's hands on the teamster controlled pension plans to provided their pie in the sky benefit. What happens if they are successful and UPS withdraws it's financial requirement. It will for sure go under and be taken over by the feds, the payout is only 1,000 dollars per retiree under the pension insurance. So all you guys with 20+ years are basically going to start over again under their so called plan, so good luck with working at UPS for 50 years because that is what it is going to take for you to afford to retire.

There is a positive spin on this, it is that these attorneys who started this so called union see something on the horizon. If there was not money to be made why would they bother. Is it possible that this underfunding will correct itself in the future.

 

[Fredless]

Central States will be fine if the IBT continues screwing the part timers over. Elimnation of all easy (in relativity) part timer jobs for junior ft drivers! Lets continue sending the 40+ year old single moms back to preload and the sort aisle in the name of full time seniority.

/end sarcasm.

Its screwed folks, like all socialist ideas. Its inevitable. As soon as I'm out of college by hopefully next year, I'm starting my own 401k and just socking away money as I can. Did the airlines pension funds teach you all NOTHING? Whose to say that its impossible that won't happen to UPS?

 

[brett636]

Wow, engineer79, you just posted what is true for every pension fund in this country, not to mention that also applies to social security. Why do you think defined benefit plans are a sinking ship? Baby Boomers make up a very large portion of the work force and are retiring by the thousands every year. Every pension fund in this country is facing more retired people than active contributors, and that is why a lot of companies are dumping pension plans like a bad habit. Its too bad you APWA supporters and those that supposedly run that half assed organization are too short sighted to see it.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

"Its screwed folks, like all socialist ideas"

Couldn't agree with you more. Communism only works in theory. And on Star Trek.

 

[Bill]

The apwa will have no rights to any of the money in the Cen states. How are you going to start a pension fund for all UPS workers with no money. UPS is not going to have to give you a red cent, and since the apwa will only weaken the union, they will have no clout to make UPS do anything. You will have no pension if you join the apwa! Can you prove that UPS will support a new pension for UPS union employees only? The answer is no! So you give up the pension you have now(no matter what the cuts are) for nothing!

Once again, people like yourself just make statements that have no meaning. When the APWA takes over, they will receive a portion of the pension money in Central States. Remember that not all of the money in CS belong to the workers of UPS. There are other companies that contribute as well. I will gladly give up the lousy pension I have now, because in a few years there will be nothing to give up! (or very little) One more bad year from investments in the stock market such as was the case in 2002, and this fund will collapse.
You asked me a question if UPS will support a new pension for UPS employees only. Then you answer your own question. I disagree with you on that point. UPS will bargain with whoever represents the employees. As for experience, the Teamsters may have more years under their belt, but the way they keep selling out the UPS employees, I don't want them negotiating another contract for me. Would you like me to list the number of times they sold us out?

 

[Bill]

Engineer 79, I believe you 100 percent. No one has ever given a serious challenge to your posts. Keep up the good work. LT

Thanks for your support. No one has given me any serious challenges, because I give you the facts and figures to back up my statements. These other clowns just spew propaganda, most likely coming from the Teamsters, without any justification to back up their baseless statements.

 

[Bill]

Let us get out the whole story if the Central States fund goes into the tank. AWPA indicated that it would have to get it's hands on the teamster controlled pension plans to provided their pie in the sky benefit. What happens if they are successful and UPS withdraws it's financial requirement. It will for sure go under and be taken over by the feds, the payout is only 1,000 dollars per retiree under the pension insurance. So all you guys with 20+ years are basically going to start over again under their so called plan, so good luck with working at UPS for 50 years because that is what it is going to take for you to afford to retire.

There is a positive spin on this, it is that these attorneys who started this so called union see something on the horizon. If there was not money to be made why would they bother. Is it possible that this underfunding will correct itself in the future.

None of your rhetoric makes any sense if you took the time to think about what you just said. First of all, the APWA is attempting to gain control of the portion of money that is destined for UPS people before the dam bursts. Why do you assume that UPS will withdraw its obligation to contribute to the pension fund? If so, then using the same warped logic, why would UPS give any additional money to the pension fund if the Teamsters are still negotiating our contract in 2008? What you doubters can't seem to grasp is the fact that while the number of retirees keep going up each year, thus draining our fund further, the number of contributing participants are heading in the opposite direction. This multi-pension plan can't work and is doomed, and a change in the pension plan is necessary at this juncture. The APWA gives us a chance for a change, but in order for it to work, we need your votes on the petition cards to replace the Teamsters. We are only receiving 40% of the money that UPS contributes in our behalf under the Teamsters, but the APWA plan allows us to control 100% of the UPS money that goes into our pension fund. Why is it that you people would rather have only 40 cents on the dollar?
Where did you come up with the stupidity that it is the attorneys that started this union? How could this underfunding correct itself? Is UPS going to contribute billions of dollars into the pension just to fully fund it so that other companies can enjoy our money? I doubt it! Are the Teamsters going to miraculously find thousands of additional members to contribute? I doubt this also. Will the stock market have a great year to recoup some of the losses? It might, but it has to sustain a great return every year, which is not going to occur. One really bad year and this fund is sunk!!

 

[Bill]

Wow, engineer79, you just posted what is true for every pension fund in this country, not to mention that also applies to social security. Why do you think defined benefit plans are a sinking ship? Baby Boomers make up a very large portion of the work force and are retiring by the thousands every year. Every pension fund in this country is facing more retired people than active contributors, and that is why a lot of companies are dumping pension plans like a bad habit. Its too bad you APWA supporters and those that supposedly run that half assed organization are too short sighted to see it.

All you keep doing is trying to tear down the APWA with your baseless statements. I have never heard a better plan coming from you. Perhaps you could educate us on the merits of the Teamsters.
Why are you happy knowing that for every dollar that UPS contributes into your pension fund, you only receive 40 cents? Is this the new math you learned in school?

 

[brett636]

All you keep doing is trying to tear down the APWA with your baseless statements. I have never heard a better plan coming from you. Perhaps you could educate us on the merits of the Teamsters.
Why are you happy knowing that for every dollar that UPS contributes into your pension fund, you only receive 40 cents? Is this the new math you learned in school?

Baseless huh?

Go to this site and scroll down to the employee section, and pay very close attention to the number of retirees GM has versus active workers. GM has been having money trouble in recent years and have pointed their trouble directly at their pension requirements. GM has about 142,000 active employees, that includes both production and white collar employees. They have approxomatly 460,000 retirees. Thats almost 3 retirees per one active employee.

I will leave the social security stats for you to look up, but everything I have read has stated that when SS was first concieved there were 16 active workers for every one person on SS. After the bulk of the baby boomers have retired there will be less than 4 workers per one person on SS.

I have already put forth a better plan, and thats putting those pension contributions into my 401k and let me decide what to do with it. I will make better use of those funds than both the IBT or the APWA.

 

[mittam]

Baseless huh?

Go to this site and scroll down to the employee section, and pay very close attention to the number of retirees GM has versus active workers. GM has been having money trouble in recent years and have pointed their trouble directly at their pension requirements. GM has about 142,000 active employees, that includes both production and white collar employees. They have approxomatly 460,000 retirees. Thats almost 3 retirees per one active employee.

I will leave the social security stats for you to look up, but everything I have read has stated that when SS was first concieved there were 16 active workers for every one person on SS. After the bulk of the baby boomers have retired there will be less than 4 workers per one person on SS.

I have already put forth a better plan, and thats putting those pension contributions into my 401k and let me decide what to do with it. I will make better use of those funds than both the IBT or the APWA.

Most of us could do better putting the funds in our own 401k. Problems with gm and CS pension funds is exactly as you said, SS, the company(gm) and the CS run the pensions as social security. A pension plan(any) will fail being run this way. That's why they need to be put in as individual so the plan can survive, same as putting into our individual 401k's. Yeah any fund will have it's ups and downs but they survive from a constant deposit whether it is weekly or monthly. Then the withdrawal will be to one person ( or family ), not to several different people. You are right on about the fund failing, the only way to get it stopped is to start over at this point, regretably that's not possible, hence the start of the APWA.

 

[brett636]

Most of us could do better putting the funds in our own 401k. Problems with gm and CS pension funds is exactly as you said, SS, the company(gm) and the CS run the pensions as social security. A pension plan(any) will fail being run this way. That's why they need to be put in as individual so the plan can survive, same as putting into our individual 401k's. Yeah any fund will have it's ups and downs but they survive from a constant deposit whether it is weekly or monthly. Then the withdrawal will be to one person ( or family ), not to several different people. You are right on about the fund failing, the only way to get it stopped is to start over at this point, regretably that's not possible, hence the start of the APWA.

Neither side offers that so neither side is showing real interest in attacking the real problem.

 

[Delivered]

Brett,

Since you seem to being doing the right things like putting money in your 401K and other investments. You seem as if you don't rely on your Teamster Pension, what would it take for you to back the APWA??

 

[1eyejack]

We need to take away the veil that has been blindings us for so long the veil is the (teamsters) they want us to work until we are 65 and when we reach that age then they will decide since we collect social security we will just give them the rest that social security does not pay us ..friend off teamsters ...We that support the apwa we better really get off are asses and really spread the word like its the gospel around the world we need to take back are pension.. they have had it to long (teamsters) its like the house when they want a change they either vote dem or rep... now its are time to vote the APWA in .... Let us open r Eyes so we can see the truth ... the truth is out the teamsters r stealing from us blinded or better yet we see them stealing from us and we need to do something about it now not wait until next contract .. there promise us the world or say that ups needs to put more money in the pension bull**** its time to kick out the teamsters once in for ALL:..

 

[satellitedriver]

Baseless huh?

Go to this site and scroll down to the employee section, and pay very close attention to the number of retirees GM has versus active workers. GM has been having money trouble in recent years and have pointed their trouble directly at their pension requirements. GM has about 142,000 active employees, that includes both production and white collar employees. They have approxomatly 460,000 retirees. Thats almost 3 retirees per one active employee.

I will leave the social security stats for you to look up, but everything I have read has stated that when SS was first concieved there were 16 active workers for every one person on SS. After the bulk of the baby boomers have retired there will be less than 4 workers per one person on SS.

I have already put forth a better plan, and thats putting those pension contributions into my 401k and let me decide what to do with it. I will make better use of those funds than both the IBT or the APWA.

Your plan for the pension is a great and better idea.
It should be the money contibuted for pension and benefits should only go to those that earned them. On this point, we are in total agreement.
Past,present and future teamsters proposals for UPS retirement and benefit plans will never allow UPSERS to get a 100% of the monies contributed on their behalf.
APWA, at least gives us this option.
Numbers be damned ,about who is contributing and who is receiving at other companies.
As long as the monies go only to past,present and future UPSERS,we of UPSERS have a measure of control.
The teamsters will never get give up the control of these monies. It is their lifeblood.

The only point of contention you seem to express is that the APWA has no history in bargaining wages and benefits.
The teamster history on bargaining wages is great.(Only because that is what dues are based on.)
Their choice of pension and health benefit providers(and it is their choice not ours)has been less than stellar.
If we as UPSERS screwup with the money provided by UPS, then it will be our own fault.
If we as UPSERS give away the money to other teamsters provided by UPS, then it really will be our fault.
SS will pay me almost double (net) than 25yrs with CS.

 

[brett636]

Brett,

Since you seem to being doing the right things like putting money in your 401K and other investments. You seem as if you don't rely on your Teamster Pension, what would it take for you to back the APWA??

As I have stated before pension cuts will not change my stance. Pension cuts are becoming a way of life and will be a way of life for years to come sadly enough. For me to back the APWA I would want to see some proof that they have some experience, or any experience at what they claim they can do for us. The APWA itself doesn't even have to have a contract with another company, just someone involved with them that has negotiated labor contracts succesfully in the past. The APWA also needs to release its plans for other aspects of our jobs like our vacations, wages, healthcare, etc. A good retirement is important, but I am not just concerned with the future, I am concerned with what I will have now. Finally, if the teamsters were to negotiate my wages and or healthcare levels down in order to keep their pensions afloat I might be a little more open to the idea of a non-experienced union taking over for them.

Your plan for the pension is a great and better idea.
It should be the money contibuted for pension and benefits should only go to those that earned them. On this point, we are in total agreement.
Past,present and future teamsters proposals for UPS retirement and benefit plans will never allow UPSERS to get a 100% of the monies contributed on their behalf.
APWA, at least gives us this option.

The APWA has not even begun to propose such an option. Their only proposal is to keep the current dinosaur alive that we call a pension plan. Better ideas need to be put forth, not old ones in new clothing.