ISP contract with the Company.....

[vantexan]

bbsam would you consider yourself or your drivers employees of fedex when you deliver fedex air pkgs? Isn`t air freight supposed to be delivered by express drivers? It seems to me once you start delivering any air pkg, then fedex has violated the RLA rules. I honestly don`t know and figure you most likely do.

Air freight is picked up and transported to it's final destination ramp by regular employees. Anyone can deliver them. The great one taught me that.

 

[MrFedEx]

Of course we're really employees. I'm employeed by so and so, LLC.

I think it's quite possible that Ground drivers will eventually become employees, but that would only be the undoing of the contractors. not Ground itself. If Fred cuts-out the contractors and has to raise pay to $15-$16 per hour, Ground is still viable. He has to buyout the contractors and their vehicles only, since he already owns the facilities. Expensive, but within Fred's means. Of course, he'd like to keep it the way it is, but that might not be possible long-term.

FedEx Express has already started the downgrading of employees to Ground level. They are doing their best to eliminate senior employees and have a bunch of $15-$16 per hour PT employees be the bulk of staffing. Benefits are already being slashed, perhaps on their way to being eliminated entirely at some point in the future.

It's just like the Forbes article said, that FedEx will lean-out the workforce and pay lower wages to maximize profitability. In other words, Express is moving toward where Ground is and vice versa.

 

[bbsam]

I'm no lawyer, but I play one here. IMO, it's not IC law that will undo Ground, it's the definition of "independent contractor" that will sink Uncle Fred. Look it up, and see what you think, but this humble poster thinks that FedEx legally exceeds the limitations of that definition. In other words, Ground drivers are really employees.

I looked it up and the criteria are vague enough for me (also not a lawyer) to drive through a court system with minimal effort and have the IC classification hold.

 

[vantexan]

I think it's quite possible that Ground drivers will eventually become employees, but that would only be the undoing of the contractors. not Ground itself. If Fred cuts-out the contractors and has to raise pay to $15-$16 per hour, Ground is still viable. He has to buyout the contractors and their vehicles only, since he already owns the facilities. Expensive, but within Fred's means. Of course, he'd like to keep it the way it is, but that might not be possible long-term.

FedEx Express has already started the downgrading of employees to Ground level. They are doing their best to eliminate senior employees and have a bunch of $15-$16 per hour PT employees be the bulk of staffing. Benefits are already being slashed, perhaps on their way to being eliminated entirely at some point in the future.

It's just like the Forbes article said, that FedEx will lean-out the workforce and pay lower wages to maximize profitability. In other words, Express is moving toward where Ground is and vice versa.

It's true. I've seen the documents from inside sources in Memphis. BWAH HA HA HA!!!

 

[DorkHead]

Air freight is picked up and transported to it's final destination ramp by regular employees. Anyone can deliver them. The great one taught me that.

And therein lies the rub. Are they employees? If not, why not have them deliver and pickup everything? Can Express consist of only pilots and ramp workers?

 

[59 Dano]

Your employees are expected to wear the company uniform, comply with company directives and represent the company 12 hours a day. When I walk in to a business stop the consignee doesn't say, "Oh, the Independent Contractor's employee was just here"--they say "the FedEx Ground driver was just here". Anyone who does not consider FedEx Ground drivers to be employees of the company needs to schedule an eye exam.

As I've asked before, how is that any different than any other industry that allows these types of deals?

When you go to a hotel (Hampton Inn, for example), the sign on the building says Hampton Inn. The lady at the desk has a name tag that says Hampton Inn. All of the signage in the building says Hampton Inn. All of the logos say Hampton Inn. The employees are representing Hampton Inn and must meet, just like the facilities themselves, a multitude of rules and standards set by Hampton Inn. They most likely work for and are paid by someone else.

Then there's pro sports, the most obvious example. Peyton Manning doesn't work for the NFL nor is he paid by it. He works for and is paid by PDB Sports Ltd. And we all know that the NFL exerts LOTS of control over teams, players, and so forth.

There is a legal distinction in place and it's all around us. Why do we want to ignore it when it comes to Ground?

 

[vantexan]

And therein lies the rub. Are they employees? If not, why not have them deliver and pickup everything? Can Express consist of only pilots and ramp workers?

Apparently the FAA requires air cargo to be handled by regular employees of the company, not by contractors or their employees, until cargo arrives at destination ramp.

 

[MrFedEx]

As I've asked before, how is that any different than any other industry that allows these types of deals?

When you go to a hotel (Hampton Inn, for example), the sign on the building says Hampton Inn. The lady at the desk has a name tag that says Hampton Inn. All of the signage in the building says Hampton Inn. All of the logos say Hampton Inn. The employees are representing Hampton Inn and must meet, just like the facilities themselves, a multitude of rules and standards set by Hampton Inn. They most likely work for and are paid by someone else.

Then there's pro sports, the most obvious example. Peyton Manning doesn't work for the NFL nor is he paid by it. He works for and is paid by PDB Sports Ltd. And we all know that the NFL exerts LOTS of control over teams, players, and so forth.

There is a legal distinction in place and it's all around us. Why do we want to ignore it when it comes to Ground?

The legal distinction comes in the form of what exactly constitutes an employee vs a contractor. As I've said many times before, the test is "degree of control". If the contractor is held to employee standards, then they are an employee....simple as that. The problem is in who makes that determination. At Ground, the disaster for Smith if the classification were to change would be the fact that his employees could now unionize. No RLA protection like over at Express.

But we are all so happy at all of the FedEx opcos...we don't need unions.

 

[59 Dano]

The legal distinction comes in the form of what exactly constitutes an employee vs a contractor. As I've said many times before, the test is "degree of control". If the contractor is held to employee standards, then they are an employee....simple as that.

Not quite.

Just looking at the IRS website, it states that there are 3 categories for degree of control.

One is behavioral, which pertains to how much control Ground has over contractors and drivers, which is often debated here.

Another is financial control. There is virtually nothing under this category to suggest that these guys are employees.

Finally, there is type of relationship. There's about as much here as in the financial control.

The IRS website itself states:

Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no “magic” or set number of factors that “makes” the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another.

​

While the test might be the degree of control, you are looking at a very, very narrow set of criteria while excluding most of the rest.

 

[bbsam]

Dano is absolutely correct. The determining factors are murky and subject to multiple interpretations at multiple times in multiple jurisdictions.

 

[Cactus]

Dano is absolutely correct. The determining factors are murky and subject to multiple interpretations at multiple times in multiple jurisdictions.

If that's true then the laws need to be a lot more clear cut.

 

[59 Dano]

If that's true then the laws need to be a lot more clear cut.

Oh come on! You're "fully aware of what's going on," aren't you?

 

[menotyou]

If that's true then the laws need to be a lot more clear cut.

Considering the bulk of Congress are attorney's, I would have to imagine it's self-preservation at it's finest.

 

[MrFedEx]

Dano is absolutely correct. The determining factors are murky and subject to multiple interpretations at multiple times in multiple jurisdictions.

Subject to multiple interpretations in which the decisions are influenced by large infusions of cash and/or political contributions. Translation: "Murky".

 

[Rhoderunner]

In other words, Express is moving toward where Ground is and vice versa.

BINGO !!!

 

[bbsam]

Subject to multiple interpretations in which the decisions are influenced by large infusions of cash and/or political contributions. Translation: "Murky".

Maybe. Still have contractors I have California.

 

[bbsam]

If that's true then the laws need to be a lot more clear cut.

The powers that be don't want them clarified.