No humanity allowed in the workplace!

[BrownSuit]

He was placed on notice of termination. He never lost his job and he did qualify for FMLA eventually.

An important question for his family, were they able to receive all of the death benefits, etc?

 

[Catatonic]

He was placed on notice of termination. He never lost his job and he did qualify for FMLA eventually. Any poster that agrees in what the sup did is out of their mind!

705,
I apologize. Somehow I missed the fact that he had died. I am truly sorry to hear that.

Some people just want to follow procedures and never step outside their comfort zone and make exceptions ... it is easier that way but not much of a leader. I'll leave it at that.

Hoke

 

[trickpony1]

Hoax, thank you for the reply. I understand that in a Union environment you cannot make exceptions because if you do it for one than you have to do it for all.

Are you saying it would be different if we or the affected employee were not union?
I'm not sure you can blame the union on this one.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Are you saying it would be different if we or the affected employee were not union?
I'm not sure you can blame the union on this one.

I have never been a supervisor other than when I was in the military but, yes, it would have been handled differently had it been in a non-union environment. I am not blaming the union at all and, in fact, I support Red in this, except that I would not wish a slow and painful death to anyone. The point about the Union is that UPS has much less flexiblity in how it can deal with employees in a Union environment.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

Qualifications - It is incomprehensible to think that anyone, in any company could treat someone that way. It is difficult to believe, although I'm sure it has happened before as well.

That being said -

One of the selling points of a Union shop is, no matter how poor you are at your job, you will advance at exactly the same rate as a top performer. In a way, it protects the sub-performing by taking any passion or judgment whatsoever out of the advancement process.

You cannot have your cake & eat it, too; any personal judgment, compassion is also removed from the termination process, discipline process, the whole process.

And before you go Defcon 1 on me, tell me where I am factually wrong. It may be distasteful to say, but the truth often is; That little union bylaw book in your back pocket has very sharp edges.

 

[Fenah]

Sorry but Theirs nothing anyone can say that will justify what happened. It was In-human and wrong. If this was my Own Business I would have fired that supervisor the moment I heard about it.

 

[Catatonic]

Are you saying it would be different if we or the affected employee were not union?
I'm not sure you can blame the union on this one.

Are you saying it would be different if we or the affected employee were not union?
I can't say for sure but I strongly believe the answer to that is "Yes"

I'm not sure you can blame the union on this one.
I would not try to say it is the Union's fault either. Unfortunately, it seems to be the "Nature of the Beast".
The Beast here is the Union interceding between the employee and the company. There are many really good benefits to this relationship (Pay, security, benefits, others I'm sure) but there is the downside too such as this incident.

 

[Catatonic]

Sorry but Theirs nothing anyone can say that will justify what happened. It was In-human and wrong. If this was my Own Business I would have fired that supervisor the moment I heard about it.

If it was your own business, you would have been aware of this and would have prevented it.
UPS is a large corporation where that kind of personal knowledge is not possible. Regardless it is unfortunate on many levels and for many reasons.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

If it was your own business, you would have been aware of this and would have prevented it.
UPS is a large corporation where that kind of personal knowledge is not possible. Regardless it is unfortunate on many levels and for many reasons.

The sad fact is, he probably did nothing wrong in the eyes of either the company OR the Union.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

The sad fact is, he probably did nothing wrong in the eyes of either the company OR the Union.

The supervisor may have followed the letter of the contract but by no means did he do the right thing.

 

[dilligaf]

The sad fact is, he probably did nothing wrong in the eyes of either the company OR the Union.

You are probably right, but the really sad fact is, he is gone now and there is very little that can be done to make things right. Red is doing what he can do and I hope that he prevails in his quest.

UPS (this is directed to the individual, as it is not truly fair to make the statement as a whole) has done some truly despicable things but I think this one ranks at the top of the list.

 

[tieguy]

Red,

I still gotta agree. I'll give you an example of the UPS production approach. I had a guy during Christmas that double shifted for me 2 years in a row. The guy was an animal. real bright, hard worker, excellent communicator, etc. Everything he did for me was great, with one exception. He went to the restroom a lot.

Ups, used to use, and maybe still does, use this exact scenario as an example of a problem an hourly employee that needs to be dealt with. Not being a complete idiot, I realized that frequent trips to the bathroom was a behavior that was inconsistent with ALL of his other actions. I did not approach him about it. After I had known him a couple of weeks, he told me that he had recenty had a fight with intestinal cancer, and that half of his intestines had been removed. This guy was working 2 shifts at UPD with a colostomy bag that he had to check and empty frequently.

The choice I had was to follow the company line, and "find out what his problem is" or cut him some slack. I have never been so glad in my life that I had more consideration for this guy than that. Now somebody can write back and say the company hired you to do things their way, etc., ect., but if you are a truly sorry human being, you will error on the inconsiderate side. These are exactly the kind of things that made me appreciate the union, when I was in management.

Ah the old 3 by 5 role play scenario. I thought there was a third option to this scenario. My memory is fuzzy but I thought the role play led to the employee bringing a doctors note explaining and excusing the extra bathroom trips. could be wrong its been so long.

 

[705red]

705,
I apologize. Somehow I missed the fact that he had died. I am truly sorry to hear that.

Some people just want to follow procedures and never step outside their comfort zone and make exceptions ... it is easier that way but not much of a leader. I'll leave it at that.

Hoke

Accepted

Qualifications - It is incomprehensible to think that anyone, in any company could treat someone that way. It is difficult to believe, although I'm sure it has happened before as well.

That being said -

One of the selling points of a Union shop is, no matter how poor you are at your job, you will advance at exactly the same rate as a top performer. In a way, it protects the sub-performing by taking any passion or judgment whatsoever out of the advancement process.

You cannot have your cake & eat it, too; any personal judgment, compassion is also removed from the termination process, discipline process, the whole process.

And before you go Defcon 1 on me, tell me where I am factually wrong. It may be distasteful to say, but the truth often is; That little union bylaw book in your back pocket has very sharp edges.[/QUOTE]


First of all its called a CONTRACT! Secondly you and drewed should open it up and try to read it sometimes. Look what article 37 has to say.

ARTICLE 37. MANAGEMENT-EMPLOYEE RELATIONS

Section 1. (a) The parties agree that the principle of a fair day�s work for a fair day�s
pay shall be observed at all times and employees shall perform their duties in
a manner that best represents the Employer�s interest. The Employer shall
not in any way intimidate, harass, coerce or overly supervise any employee in
the performance of his or her duties. The Employer will treat employees with
dignity and respect at all times, which shall include, but not be limited to,
giving due consideration to the age and physical condition of the employee.
Employees will also treat each other as well as the Employer with dignity and
respect.

 

[Dragon]

705, when somebody try's to pull that card I just refer them to this...The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA) protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age. The ADEA's protections apply to both employees and job applicants. Under the ADEA, it is unlawful to discriminate against a person because of his/her age with respect to any term, condition, or privilege of employment, including hiring, firing, promotion, layoff, compensation, benefits, job assignments, and training. I then ask them which one they think prevails?? Conversation always ends about that time.

 

[705red]

705, when somebody try's to pull that card I just refer them to this...The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA) protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age. The ADEA's protections apply to both employees and job applicants. Under the ADEA, it is unlawful to discriminate against a person because of his/her age with respect to any term, condition, or privilege of employment, including hiring, firing, promotion, layoff, compensation, benefits, job assignments, and training. I then ask them which one they think prevails?? Conversation always ends about that time.

Well I know the Teamsters are not perfect and maybe where you are you have them wrapped around your finger. But typically where your conversation ends is where my grievance procedure starts.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

...First of all its called a CONTRACT! Secondly you and drewed should open it up and try to read it sometimes. Look what article 37 has to say.

ARTICLE 37. MANAGEMENT-EMPLOYEE RELATIONS

Section 1. (a) The parties agree that the principle of a fair day�s work for a fair day�spay shall be observed at all times and employees shall perform their duties in a manner that best represents the Employer�s interest. The Employer shall not in any way intimidate, harass, coerce or overly supervise any employee in the performance of his or her duties. The Employer will treat employees with dignity and respect at all times, which shall include, but not be limited to,giving due consideration to the age and physical condition of the employee.
Employees will also treat each other as well as the Employer with dignity and respect.

I know it. I had assumed you did as well, and seriously believe you do. Which is why I wonder what your reasoning is in quoting a chapter that is not relevant to the situation at hand.

No, it isn't.

Seriously, No, it isn't.

(And thank you for responding with some degree of mutual respect, instead of your normal tactical nuke - it is appreciated)

 

[exupser87]

I don't get into many pro- union/pro-management arguments. After spending close to 9 years at UPS, I went to RPS to help them open up the Dallas Hub there( I had seen larger centers at the time). I had several ex-UPS supervisors working for me there. The attitude was " there's no union here, so we can do anything we want". My response to that was, "until I say otherwise, all disciplinary actions need to be presented to me for review before I will allow you to take any action."

Was it nice not to have a union, sure, but with that comes a responsibility to treat people fairly. We all know folks who can't or won't do that. Does UPS need a union ? Absolutely, since I have personally seen both sides. One of the things Fedex has suffered from over the years, is the influx of some hardnosed ex-UPS supervisors and Managers, that have over time, changed the original Fedex approach when it comes to employee relations. That particular problem will be the straw that breaks the camel's back if they do go union, if they get past the legal issues.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

.... I had several ex-UPS supervisors working for me there. The attitude was " there's no union here, so we can do anything we want". My response to that was, "until I say otherwise, all disciplinary actions need to be presented to me for review before I will allow you to take any action."...

In other words, you were the manager, and they were your drones? Because otherwise, what you describe, is completely cutting the balls off your management team. I know, not really on-topic, but what you describe is not delegating to managers, it is micro-managing your employees.

 

[anonymous6]

And people wonder why we need unions and government intervention to FORCE companies like UPS to do the right thing!!!

My hat's off to you 705Red. If only we had more like you.

 

[1989]

My experience has been quite the opposite with cancer patients. The union doesn't do jack. Where the company has set up banking accounts for donations. Daily sign up lists for helping with :errands, projects, food.

We currently have someone who had a brain tumor. Nearly all the drivers are donating a certain amount of money every month so he has a regular income. And our yearly United Way golf tourney won't be going to United Way this year. He will be getting the 8-10K instead.