Oh Boy! Here we go

klein

Für Meno :)
You mean the ones who invaded, slaughtered most of the indigenous people and put the survivors in camps, and then started making "laws" about who was allowed to come to "their" country? I like how their descendants get all huffy about it too, talking about "criminals" and "illegals" and the importance of obeying the law..... :happy-very:

Good point ! I say let the Native Indians decide on that one ! It's thier land !!! ;)
 

Arrowjet

Member
"Most of the jobs that these people are more than happy to do Americans are too lazy to do. Day laborers, migrant farm workers, etc., are issued temporary work visas but are not citizens.

Where I live we have a number of apple orchards. We also have 10% unemployment. You would think the logical thing to do would be to hire some of these people to pick, sort, crate and ship the apples. The orchards have to bring workers in from Jamaica to pick the apples and prune the trees and use locals to sort, crate and ship because the locals are just too lazy to do the work. The workers are flown in and housed in dorm style housing. They send back 80% of their wages to their families. They also love to play the lottery, especially Power Ball."

>>ENOUGH OF THIS #$%^!!! Lazy my ass!! You need to stop regurgitating junk that others say without actually thinking about it, makes you look like an idiot! If the employers pay a fair days wage for the work done then you would fill those jobs with "americans"! 9.4% unemployeement attests to that!! Instead, they bring in "illegals" (which in and of its-self should be a crime) pay them pennies on the dollar and justify this by saying, "we can not get americans to do the work!" Nobody but illegals will pick up trash for 8 hours and take $20 as payment when you can go flip burgers for $7. PAY WHAT THE JOB IS WORTH AND YOU WILL HAVE AMERICANS DOING THE WORK!!

SO LETS THINK THIS THROUGH!! "they" come here illegally, get paid a rate, that even if they didn't send 80% back home(READ REMOVING AMERICAN DOLLARS FROM OUR ECONOMY) would keep them under the poverty level. They do this by "undercutting" american workers BY THE WAY!! This, in-turn, forces them to "live" (I use the word loosely) together. Cramming 2 and 3 families into residences that are zoned to be single family dwelings. This drives DOWN the values of neighboring properties. Why should anybody "have to" live in "DORM STYLE HOUSING" to make $20 a day? FAIR DAYS PAY FOR A FAIR DAYS WORK! Couple this with their lack of health insurance which sees them clogging our county health departments which forces taxpayers to cover! OH NO, I used the word taxpayers!! I love it when idiots calim they pay taxes! How do you pay taxes without a valid SSN? You use a bogus number or someone else's, and claim 9 deductions thus getting virtually nothing taken out of your check. THATS NOT PAYING TAXES!!

ANd who in this tread tried to claim that the majority of illegals are here not by choice?!?! WHAT IN THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?! Are you trying to say there is some MASSIVE reverse slave trade FORCING people into the US?!?! THEY ARE HERE BY CHOICE....THEIR CHOICE!!! USE YOUR HEAD BEFORE OPENING YOUR MOUTH...Think things through, your life will be better that way!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 

blue efficacy

Well-Known Member
Criminal is a bit harsh. These are folks in search of the American dream. UPS did hire them and if not for this DHS initiative they would be going to work along with rest of us tomorrow morning. However, that being said, I would not want to risk the loss of these government contracts for an undocumented employee.[/QUOsTE]

I understand your point, all of your points actually, and my issue with this has always been that a majority of these people are willing to take all kinds of chances, risk their lives, just to come to the US to work. That makes them; a. a criminal, and b. a leech on our social services program. I am already taking it in the neck, like the rest of us, with taxes etc.

Call me crazy but just go through the legal channels, the way it's supposed to be done...
If they're coming here to WORK, I hardly see how this makes them a leech.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
True. But it should be a felony.

And your analogy is not complete. A speeder at least stops speeding when ticketed. The illegal border-crosser continues his crime every day, week, month, and year that he remains here illegally. Furthermore, many of his subsequent everyday activities are also illegal as a consequence of his underlying illegal immigration status.

That is why I hope immigration "reform" is done soon. They will have to pay fines as well as other fees in order to be able to stay. Then their "crimes" will be paid in full. :) Then the speeding ticket analogy will be "complete."
 

Benben

Working on a new degree, Masters in BS Detecting!
That is why I hope immigration "reform" is done soon. They will have to pay fines as well as other fees in order to be able to stay. Then their "crimes" will be paid in full. :) Then the speeding ticket analogy will be "complete."

>>Will this force them to ask for more reasonable pay, or will it force them to cut their costs even more and go from 2-3 families per home to 4-5 per home?

"Not just leeches, but THIEVES! Here to "steal" your job by craftily giving the employer more value for his dollar :happy-very:"

>>More value or larger profit margin?!?! Again not "stealing" jobs but undercutting Americans rightfully here and rightfully expecting a fair days wage for working the same job.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
>>Will this force them to ask for more reasonable pay, or will it force them to cut their costs even more and go from 2-3 families per home to 4-5 per home?

"Not just leeches, but THIEVES! Here to "steal" your job by craftily giving the employer more value for his dollar :happy-very:"

>>More value or larger profit margin?!?! Again not "stealing" jobs but undercutting Americans rightfully here and rightfully expecting a fair days wage for working the same job.
"Rightfully" according to who? The laws of the universe? The big man in the sky? Or just according to some principle that we made up ourselves because we got here before they did?
 

JonFrum

Member
So that we all know what we are talking about, please view these two pages from the US Citizenship & Immigration Services official website . . .

For Employees:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=d6f988e60a405110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

Why Federal Contractors must now verify some/all current employees in addition to New Hires:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=534bbd181e09d110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD
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I'm wondering how large are the federal contracts UPS has or will get? And how much profit if any will be made on them? I hope it's worth it.
 

SouthCal

Active Member
"Rightfully" according to who? The laws of the universe? The big man in the sky? Or just according to some principle that we made up ourselves because we got here before they did?

Agreed. Native Americans and Mexicans (although, we "purchased" certain territories after wars at a deeply discounted offer) need to decide who stays and who goes. Not the other way around. Entitlement gets no one anywhere. Ever.
 

Benben

Working on a new degree, Masters in BS Detecting!
"Rightfully" according to who? The laws of the universe? The big man in the sky? Or just according to some principle that we made up ourselves because we got here before they did?

Rightfully according to my Passport, Birth Cert., 22+ years of income tax returns, drivers license, Church affiliations, Home owners assoc., school records, ect., ect., ect. Most importantly THE LAW!!!!

There are laws in place and steps one most take to be here "rightfully." I am not understanding the defense of those that refuse to "do it the right way", or plainly put, defending criminals!!!

Yes I am a bit jaded on the subject. I don't see how UPS's following the rules put forth by our law makers should vilify the company!!
 

Signature Only

Blue in Brown
More often than not, there's an issue of money, which is something they can't make a lot of here, even after they send a vast majority of what little they do make back home to the family that was left behind. Because they're willing to take a huge pay cut because someone like you or me wouldn't want to work in the fields, I'll admit it. I don't want to work in the fields, not because I feel it's beneath me, but because it'd be a huge pay cut for me because I've worked for what I have. They're doing the exact same thing.

It takes a lot of time and money to become a resident or citizen. More so to become a resident than a citizen. Again, I will reiterate that more often than not, people are here "illegally" due to circumstances out of their control. Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't people here of their own volition, because that's certainly the case for a lot as well. Let us never mind the fact that a large portion of the western United States actually belonged to Mexico before we got our grubby and greedy hands on it, no matter how much we paid for it after a war that started because Americans couldn't agree with Mexico's laws.

What is truly wrong about this whole immigration thing is the amount of arrogance and ignorance Americans have. What irks me to no end is that it is primarily Mexicans that are targeted by this, you know, the ones that pick our produce from the fields and orchards, wash our dishes at a restaurant, clean up after our mess in a movie theatre or a weekend away in a hotel. Jobs we'd stay away from because you find it's beneath you or it's not the pay you were looking for, or we feel we're way too over qualified for, that's not what we spent $20,000 a year for 4-5 years to do. Never mind those from Europe, China, Japan or any other country who let their work or school visas expire and continue to stay here, some for decades, undetected. But what saddens me the most is that very, very few realise that legal or illegal immigrants are people too. No matter the language barriers, their feelings get hurt just as easily as ours do and to be exiled, reviled and humiliated only worsens the matter. How would you like to see the news and see your people beaten down and ridiculed? There would be a public outrage. How would you like it if you were in that position? Look at it from a HUMANITY standpoint. We're all people and deserve to be treated as such regardless of status.

It seems to me that we have forgotten what was etched into the tablet of the Statue of Liberty.

“The New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
I see where you're coming from but it's not like the old days; when we could do whatever we wanted. World population is currently 6.7 billion and increasing 80 million each year.

There just isn't the spirit among governments to ensure equitable distribution. Mexico has abundant resources yet the government hoards everything, and I mean everything, for the small elite class and leaves everyone else to starve.

Their solution to the problem is pushing citizens north so they can send money back home. Remittances from American account for over 30% of Mexico's GNP. U.S. companies get cheap, throwaway labor and banks on both sides of the border take a cut of every buck that crosses.

I'd like to help, the illegals are human beings trying to survive....but we can't go broke doing it.
 

Signature Only

Blue in Brown
Thats somehting you should point out to the American farmers. They are the ones that own the farm, property, run it, and do the hiring.
But, by all means, they look at the bottom dollar figure.
1 farm, ranch or Ochard hiring only high paid americans workers would be forced into bankrupty.
Because his price of an orange, apple, or potato would be $1.00 each, not $1.00 per pound or less.

Are the american people ready to pay such higher produce prices, including wine and fruit drinks, restaurants, hotels, and yes landscaping ?
Include bennies, such as healthcare, pension, ss, etc, which the american worker no doubtly would want, add another dollar to each veggie/fruit cost.

I tell you, while I was in Florida, I often wondered why Idaho Potatoes and other "northern" veggies and fruits were cheaper in Canada (even though they grow locally where I live).
I know now, it's the cheap labour your american farms take for granted.

However, since ofcourse it's only seasonal work here. It gives students summerjobs, but as well we fly in Mexicans too, but legally, with temporary working visas etc.
And they earn just as much as any other temp worker would earn.
Actually, last summer (I think it was), 1 of our unions wanted to fight for them, so they get an overpaid rate of 1.5X. But, the mexicans said, no, they didn't want that.
Because, they were afraid, thier hrs would be cut, to 8 hrs only per day. And they work 16 if they can.
They want to earn as much money in the short period of time, as they can.
I think you're wrong. We pay $1.00 per apple and $5 to $6 for a head of lettuce. But it isn't paid at the grocery store. It's paid in higher health insurance bills, higher auto and home insurance, higher property taxes for schools, roads, and other infrastructure.
 

SouthCal

Active Member
There just isn't the spirit among governments to ensure equitable distribution. Mexico has abundant resources yet the government hoards everything, and I mean everything, for the small elite class and leaves everyone else to starve.

Their solution to the problem is pushing citizens north so they can send money back home. Remittances from American account for over 30% of Mexico's GNP. U.S. companies get cheap, throwaway labor and banks on both sides of the border take a cut of every buck that crosses.

I'd like to help, the illegals are human beings trying to survive....but we can't go broke doing it.

Some of them go broke trying to survive. As far as equitable distribution? We can't even practice that here in our own country. I see fewer taxes for the richer, more taxes for the poorer, and please don't tell me I've got this twisted, I don't. Ooh, tax breaks that we have to pay back? No, that doesn't work. How did that help the recession at all? If anything, it helped to make it worse. There is no "middle income" here in the US. Just upper income and lower income, and yet, we can still reach the upper lower income. There's no middle ground. No matter how many people like to believe they're middle income, they're not. It's one category or the other.

In regards to the GNP statement, so, you're saying it's okay to run sweatshops south of the border because we make a buck on it. How is that any different than hiring them to work here in the United States undocumented? Oh. Because they're staying in their own country earning pennies on the dollar just to buy enough rice and corn for the month after paying exorbitant taxes because they have a corrupt government . That works out well.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Rightfully according to my Passport, Birth Cert., 22+ years of income tax returns, drivers license, Church affiliations, Home owners assoc., school records, ect., ect., ect. Most importantly THE LAW!!!!

There are laws in place and steps one most take to be here "rightfully." I am not understanding the defense of those that refuse to "do it the right way", or plainly put, defending criminals!!!

Yes I am a bit jaded on the subject. I don't see how UPS's following the rules put forth by our law makers should vilify the company!!
Passport, birth cert., drivers license, etc are all just bureaucratic documents. They don't guarantee you a job or anything else, nor should they. They mean less than nothing to someone faced with the choice of either watching his children go hungry or crossing the border to look for work.
You don't have a job because you pay taxes, you pay taxes because you have a job. Institute a guest worker program so that all the currently undocumented workers can be part of the system and they will pay taxes too. In addition they can enroll in a company healthcare plan so they when they get sick they go to a doctor instead of getting taxpayer funded treatment at the emergency room.
As far as the law goes, any law which criminalizes people's behavior based on who they are is immoral and should be broken regularly just on principle.
The only thing that should guarantee you a job is your willingness to work, period. Protectionism based on nativism is morally bankrupt and indefensible.
 
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