Pilots Talks Fail

Discussion in 'UPS Airline / Gateway' started by susiedriver, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

    From the pilots board:
    The negotiations this week ultimately failed because United Parcel
    Service remains unwilling to recognize the contribution of this pilot
    group to the success of the operation. It is our belief that a 30 day
    cooling off period will clarify the thinking of all parties. Now, more
    than ever, is the time for absolute and total unity among the pilot
    group. Divided we cannot win--united we cannot fail. We will remain
    united and we will win--let there be no doubt.

    Oh Boy! Let the slinging of the mud begin. I can hardly wait to hear what that most intelligent posters, 'unregistered' has to say from his/her inside position.

    Looks like the stock is never going to hit $80.
  2. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member


    After 38-months of negotiations,
    the Independent Pilots Association is requesting that the National Mediation Board
    release the union from mediation.
  3. over9five

    over9five Moderator Staff Member

    So they asked to be released from mediation. When can we expect an answer?

    I can't see UPS letting this get to the point of interruption of service.
  4. chriscraft

    chriscraft New Member

    i do not know why ups will take wait tell the last minute to end pilots strike they lose business everytime there is talk of a strike. i donot know if rest of ups will back them. teamsters would have to i guess but many would cross.
  5. If there were to be a strike, and customers switched over to Fedex Express, all pilots would have to do is apply at Fedex. There looking for the same pay and benefits that Fedex pilots enjoy now anyway. There are more than double the pilots at Fedex and there Union is much stronger. Fedex would not have let this drag out as long as it has because Fred S needs happy pilots to stay on top of the express and int'l markets. He knows who butters his bread. With all the money to be made in China and India, there could not be a worst time for talks to break down between the pilots union and UPS.
  6. traveler

    traveler Where next? Venice

    If so, why is the FedEx contract not yet settled?
  7. iloadthetruck

    iloadthetruck Member

    It's up to the mediator whether or not mediation stops. Word on the street, Wall Street, that is, is that the mediator is going to say no.

    I don't believe the union has been 100% level-headed on this issue. Slamming the company you work for through advertisements and press releases while re-negotiating a contract is treasonous. And with the passenger airlines going south, and huge M&A's with other airfreight companies, the industry as a whole is not stable.

    I do hope this comes to a positive close, with both sides finding a beneficial agreement. It's just disappointing that the pilots think that UPS' stellar financial performance today will happen again in the future, but their actions today are definitely not helping to guarantee that. They want to share in the success? Then have them buy stock.

    Also, think about this: how different would the situation be if the IPA represented more than just UPS' pilots? Would this be any better, or any worse?
  8. ok2bclever

    ok2bclever I Re Member

    If explaining your position and what you feel needs to be improved is "slamming" the company, then that would mean the company must be doing something bad, right?

    Perhaps "slamming" is not the most appropriate word.

    Treasonous is also a strange word to use in my opinion, although I agree I hope this all works out rather quickly to both sides acceptable results as it benefits neither side to continue to drag this out.
  9. iloadthetruck

    iloadthetruck Member

    I agree, "slamming" may not be the best choice. However, for people who work for UPS, the it's constantly negative, non-constructive commentary that really doesn't help make UPS any more flexible at the bargaining table. I'm fine with the informational picketing, but when they start frightening customers by sending out a press release every week about how they're going on strike (which, as of today, is illegal, and will be into the future) and placing ads in major business publications, I just don't see that as productive for either side. Should we reward them for their actions by giving them a raise?

    Notice how the pilots are the ones issuing pr, while UPS just blithely idles along? They know the pilots' actions are speaking for themselves.

    And I was right - the mediator put the whole session on indefinite recess.

    Look at the MTA strike in New York as a very recent, very parallel example. Their workers were already well-paid, well-pensioned, and well-insured. They wanted more because the MTA was running with a surplus. (We all know how the government treats surpluses... not very well. So the chance of that existing and them getting a piece seems very low.) The pilots are using the same argument - UPS is doing well so we should be rewarded. Unlike the MTA employees, the pilots had dozens of chances to join in on the "success" be it investing in a 401k or getting stock, those are all viable options for anyone.

    I need to read up on this some more, it's been a while, but again, comparing this to another strike, a long time ago, a lot of people agreed with Reagan's decision to fire the air traffic controllers. Hopefully that won't happen with us, because it would be a shame to be another company putting air personnel on the street.
  10. ok2bclever

    ok2bclever I Re Member

    I don't know if you are correct regarding the NY transit thing as over wanting more.

    My understanding was it was over the city stating they were going after concessions in the form of causing employees to have to fund part of their already contractual pension.

    The whole thing is cloudy including the strike itself and the resolution.

    I don't see a parallel between that and the pilots informational picketing, but it's a perspective thing I guess.

    I saw an article on national television last night regarding the pilot situation and the issue presented was the China thing.

    If I understand that it's about job protection, which we all can understand.

    I know pension, work logistics and real wage protection are also points of contention.

    I think the problem from the pilot's point of view is there is no incentive for the company to resolve this negotiation impasse as they are fine with the current shortcomings (from the pilot's point of view).

    So, the pilots are attempting things that will give the company incentive to negotiate in good faith.

    I don't really like anything that negatively impacts our company's financial situation either, but what would you suggest the pilots do that would give the company incentive to conplete the negotiations.

    The fact that the mediator sided with not releasing the pilots to be able to strike on the first request for this was not a surprise though.
  11. iloadthetruck

    iloadthetruck Member

    Here is a story from the Wall Street Journal that gives a good idea of what the hot-button issues are.


    I'm wondering about the issues with Supply Chain, though. IIRC, in order to avoid antitrust issues they have to use other carriers than just UPS, so, in essence, our hands are tied when it comes to those Chinese contract routes.
  12. UPS can not allow employees of one company (the airline) to dictate how the rest of the Enterprise is run. I was surprised the hear the geek from the IPA on TV yesterday actually say this was the big issue. He actually implied the UPS was outsourcing pilots jobs to places, and I quote: "Like Trinidad."

    He should have said something visionary like "UPS planes must be flown by UPS pilots." That way they could settle and still look good.

    Go UPS!
  13. isguy

    isguy New Member

    Came across this article this morning. I wonder how many Delta pilots would be happy to become UPS pilots. Just some food for thought, and may help to put the whole labor issue in perspective for the pilot issue.

    Dec 29, 2005 Delta Air Lines pilots voted Wednesday to approve a 14 percent pay cut in a deal their union worked out with management to help the bankrupt carrier cope with an expected cash crunch.
    It's the second double-digit pay cut the airline pilots have accepted in 13 months.

    Rank-and-file pilots will see their average salary of roughly $170,000 reduced to about $146,000. The pilots would give up other pilot pay and cost items equal to an additional 1 percent hourly wage reduction.
  14. sendagain

    sendagain Member

    With all the other pilot jobs giving back pay and benefits, how can our pilots insist on more increases? You would have to admit that there are many pilots who would like to join UPS, leave their troubled passenger routes and start flying packages. I think they could be replaced rather quickly and would end up replacing pilots at other airlines who jumped to UPS for the security we have at our company. A strike would be a really bad move in these current conditions in the industry.
  15. A wide body Delta Captain top pay per hour AFTER 2nd round of give backs AND on the verge of LIQUIDATION is $186.00! UPS on the backs of it's slav, a, workers, posting BILLION DOLLAR profits per quarter, record manager bonuses, $190.00 an hour! A $4.00 different per hour. UPS, I would be very proud! Those **** greedy pilots, "Who do they think they are?"

    A LINE SLUG aka An "Anonymous Coward"
  16. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    What the heck did you say? Are you saying the pilots are asking for a 4 dollar bump?
  17. My mistake if it was not clear. The Delta pilots accepted a second pay cut down to $186.00 an hour. Delta is an airline one step away from bankruptcy, long-term survival in question. For the last 4 years UPS top pay has been $190.00 an hour. UPS press machine is out "BRAGGING, "How we have the highest paid Pilots", maybe UPS is right. By DEFAULT! All I'm saying is If I were UPS I would be very PROUD of that fact, comparing our multi-billion $ per quarter company to a bankrupt company! OBTW, if those dollar amounts sound high? Top pay for Delta Captains prior to the bankruptcy and 9/11, was in the neighborhood of $285-300.00 per hour.

    Point is, the company garbage machine, sorry, press machine keeps saying, "We are the highest paid Pilots!" Wrong answer! I have flown with some of the United, Delta pilots that UPS has hired, if you think they are going to come here thankful, great full, to be employed by the benevolent UPS you guys are sadly mistaken. We have already had 2 guys leave and go back to bankrupt airlines. Why you ask? Because of the way we are treated, the way we are managed. Think about this! If you take ALL of the airlines WITH union contracts, and put ALL of their grievances together, they do not even add up to HALF of what is on file HERE AT UPS!

    UPS can hide behind the RLA and NMB, that is ok, The IPA is not going to go away!

  18. Captbrown

    Captbrown New Member

    Last edited: Dec 29, 2005
  19. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    :lol: , now that was funny!

    All that humor wasted on a bunch of flying packages.

  20. air_upser

    air_upser New Member

    Brownpilot, I believe there is a place for unions in the american workforce, however, I don't understand why they are never happy with what they have. Why do maximum salaries always need to increase more than the cost of living? If $200,000 is good today, why won't it be good next year if a cost of living adjustment is added? UPS is profitable. Great. That means you'll have a job in 10 years unlike your fellow pilots at Delta, NWA and American. I don't think a little more towards healthcare will break you either. Better facilties.....yup you'll probably get that too. Outsourcing. Where, SCS? That's not outsourcing.
    I guess what I'm trying to say is I fail to see what all the anger and the "us versus them" attitude is all about. When we gave you a brown uniform we made you the envy of every other pilot out there, yet, when it comes contract time, UPS owes you something. Personally, I find it frustrating. I can't wait to see what happens in 2008. Is there legitimate issues? Absolutely. Our drivers work hard and shouldn't be required to miss every after school program their kids have because we need them to stay out until 8 or 9pm. But do I think the top pay should be increased? Nope. Cost of living only. It's a great job with great benefits. But of course, the union will try to use their leverage and ask for everything. Heck, I'd even support profit sharing if they didn't ask for an increase every contract(beyond cost of living).
    Anyhow, this board gets pretty mean sometimes. I'm friends and neighbors with pilots, drivers, and managers alike. When the day is done, we're all just human and making the best out of life.