The compassion of others..do they know she makes 100k???????

[MAKAVELI]

UPS could have dominated the market. They weren’t able to. Plenty of companies dominate sectors with high demand even with competition. See Google, Amazon etc. UPS allowed a competitor to take half the market and continues to lose ground every year.

You mean like how UPS took market share away from the Express side?

 

[Northbaypkg]

UPS could have dominated the market. They weren’t able to. Plenty of companies dominate sectors with high demand even with competition. See Google, Amazon etc. UPS allowed a competitor to take half the market and continues to lose ground every year.

There's only a handful of companies that dominate a market in the fashion of the two you named. You could probably only add a couple more, Apple, Microsoft, and ..... whatever. Point is, they make up .000001 percent of the total number of companies out there. There's a much bigger percentage of sectors with high demand that have healthy competition going, FedEx and UPS being one of them.

Difference with our market is, with the e-com burst there is simply too much growth for anyone company to handle. See the peak season of 2013, where both UPS and FedEx were so overwhelmed that they both had their lowest on time delivery percentage ever. Both companies can't even expand fast enough to meet demand. And this is even with Amazon delivering 45% of their own items now.

It’s not a high skill job but there are skills required. Safe driving, organization, time management etc. The highest compensated drivers at Ground are the ones that excel in those areas. A driver that can do work in 5 hours that others take 8 will make more money by the hour at Ground. The opposite is true with union workers.

Your last statement is exactly the reason we UPS drivers have more stringent demands placed on us by management. And which is why my original quote stands, the demands are not stringent if you are out there working. If you can't do it, you don't make it. That way we DO get more of the drivers that can do the work in 5 hours, not 8. Meanwhile from what I see in my area at FedEx ground, you guys gotta put whoever you can get out there. And then when you do get someone good you gotta pray they stay for while before they find out that they're being under compensated for all their hard work. A driver that spends 4 years driving at FedEx ground is simply wasting his time, whereas if he put that same time driving at UPS he is actually able to afford a good life.

 

[It will be fine]

There's only a handful of companies that dominate a market in the fashion of the two you named. You could probably only add a couple more, Apple, Microsoft, and ..... whatever. Point is, they make up .000001 percent of the total number of companies out there. There's a much bigger percentage of sectors with high demand that have healthy competition going, FedEx and UPS being one of them.

Difference with our market is, with the e-com burst there is simply too much growth for anyone company to handle. See the peak season of 2013, where both UPS and FedEx were so overwhelmed that they both had their lowest on time delivery percentage ever. Both companies can't even expand fast enough to meet demand. And this is even with Amazon delivering 45% of their own items now.



Your last statement is exactly the reason we UPS drivers have more stringent demands placed on us by management. And which is why my original quote stands, the demands are not stringent if you are out there working. If you can't do it, you don't make it. That way we DO get more of the drivers that can do the work in 5 hours, not 8. Meanwhile from what I see in my area at FedEx ground, you guys gotta put whoever you can get out there. And then when you do get someone good you gotta pray they stay for while before they find out that they're being under compensated for all their hard work. A driver that spends 4 years driving at FedEx ground is simply wasting his time, whereas if he put that same time driving at UPS he is actually able to afford a good life.

UPS did dominate the small package delivery market for decades. The union and the 97 strike ended that dominance and allowed a competitor to take significant market share.

Your assumption that union wages somehow make better workers is not founded in reality. You mistakenly believe every Ground contractor is desperate for workers all the time. If drivers are too slow they don’t work for me, that’s not complicated. Anyone that spends 4 years delivering packages is wasting their time.

 

[Northbaypkg]

Anyone that spends 4 years delivering packages is wasting their time.

A lot of retired UPS drivers collecting fat pensions would beg to differ with you.

UPS did dominate the small package delivery market for decades. The union and the 97 strike ended that dominance and allowed a competitor to take significant market share.

I'll agree that the 97 strike did allow FedEx to gain some market share. But from an employee at UPS standpoint it also forced UPS to create a lot more full time jobs that they wouldn't have made otherwise. So it was a victory for the union and employees. I know you only care about yourself so you don't see it that way.

Your assumption that union wages somehow make better workers is not founded in reality. You mistakenly believe every Ground contractor is desperate for workers all the time. If drivers are too slow they don’t work for me, that's not complicated.

I didn't say union wages make better workers. I said those wages allow them to KEEP better workers. And look at what I'm writing, I said 'from what I see in my area'. In my area I see a lot of turnover with FedEx ground. If you're not struggling for workers that's great for you. But be honest, what's the longest you're able to keep a good driver before he leaves? What's the average length of time a driver works for you?

 

[It will be fine]

A lot of retired UPS drivers collecting fat pensions would beg to differ with you.



I'll agree that the 97 strike did allow FedEx to gain some market share. But from an employee at UPS standpoint it also forced UPS to create a lot more full time jobs that they wouldn't have made otherwise. So it was a victory for the union and employees. I know you only care about yourself so you don't see it that way.



I didn't say union wages make better workers. I said those wages allow them to KEEP better workers. And look at what I'm writing, I said 'from what I see in my area'. In my area I see a lot of turnover with FedEx ground. If you're not struggling for workers that's great for you. But be honest, what's the longest you're able to keep a good driver before he leaves? What's the average length of time a driver works for you?

What do you believe the benefit of keeping workers for years is? I can have a driver fully productive in about 2 months. Why would I want someone that has been delivering packages for a decade working for me? That’s an injury waiting to happen.

 

[Northbaypkg]

What do you believe the benefit of keeping workers for years is? I can have a driver fully productive in about 2 months. Why would I want someone that has been delivering packages for a decade working for me? That’s an injury waiting to happen.

Once again, you you you. You don't give a damn about the condition of the employee, you want all benefits for you. Employees looking for a job want stability, longevity, and to be compensated fairly, that's the benefit for US. You don't care about any of that. I see guys retiring from my building year after year after putting in their 25+ years. Yes some injuries, we're human after all. But we're given the chance to earn a good living and be rewarded for our hard work and experience. You don't want to reward anyone, you just want to use them for awhile and then plug someone else in. Which I bet is the mindset of most contractors out there.

I wish that prospective delivery drivers out there would see this exchange between us so they could choose the company they work for appropriately. If you only want to work as a driver for a few years and move on to something else, FedEx ground is for you. If you want a career in delivery, UPS is for you.

 

[Mutineer]

What do you believe the benefit of keeping workers for years is? I can have a driver fully productive in about 2 months. Why would I want someone that has been delivering packages for a decade working for me? That’s an injury waiting to happen.

I would've scoffed at this notion twenty years ago. But I agree with it now. Because electronic technology has made it true.

Online mapping, route plotting, etc: Any normal idiot from outside this occupation can adequately learn a route in a fraction of the time that it used to. And the technology gets better every day.

This occupation is quickly going the way to what it should have been all along: A dead end, low wage, high turnover job.

 

[It will be fine]

Once again, you you you. You don't give a damn about the condition of the employee, you want all benefits for you. Employees looking for a job want stability, longevity, and to be compensated fairly, that's the benefit for US. You don't care about any of that. I see guys retiring from my building year after year after putting in their 25+ years. Yes some injuries, we're human after all. But we're given the chance to earn a good living and be rewarded for our hard work and experience. You don't want to reward anyone, you just want to use them for awhile and then plug someone else in. Which I bet is the mindset of most contractors out there.

I wish that prospective delivery drivers out there would see this exchange between us so they could choose the company they work for appropriately. If you only want to work as a driver for a few years and move on to something else, FedEx ground is for you. If you want a career in delivery, UPS is for you.

I run a company for profit. I volunteer my time to help the less fortunate. You seem confused about what I should base my decisions on for my business. In your long rant you didn’t answer the benefit to my company to having drivers work for years.

 

[dezguy]

I would've scoffed at this notion twenty years ago. But I agree with it now. Because electronic technology has made it true.

Online mapping, route plotting, etc: Any normal idiot from outside this occupation can adequately learn a route in a fraction of the time that it used to. And the technology gets better every day.

This occupation is quickly going the way to what it should have been all along: A dead end, low wage, high turnover * job.

Yet, there are still people who can't figure it out.

While I've seen more people get hired at the station I'm at, in one year than I have seen in ten, there were still people who couldn't cut it despite electronic technology.

Even then, the ones who did manage to stick around aren't considered go to people and are mainly only expected to have knowledge of one or two routes, should the need for coverage arise.

Technology can only take you so far. The ones who lean on it the least, in my opinion, are usually the ones who are most productive.

 

[Northbaypkg]

I would've scoffed at this notion twenty years ago. But I agree with it now. Because electronic technology has made it true.

Online mapping, route plotting, etc: Any normal idiot from outside this occupation can adequately learn a route in a fraction of the time that it used to. And the technology gets better every day.

This occupation is quickly going the way to what it should have been all along: A dead end, low wage, high turnover * job.

That what it seems like, it's a race to the bottom. However with the responsibilities tasked to drivers I don't believe your last paragraph is true. A burger flipper and a delivery driver should not make the same wage. As IWBF stated, you still need some skills. And those skills, although basic, are vital to the job being completed in a timely fashion, whether you have GPS help or not. Basically it's, any idiot with good work ethic can learn the job faster, not just any old idiot.

 

[zeev]

You spend 4 years at Ground you have probably lost about 300k compared to working at UPS.

 

[burrheadd]

What do you believe the benefit of keeping workers for years is? I can have a driver fully productive in about 2 months. Why would I want someone that has been delivering packages for a decade working for me? That’s an injury waiting to happen.

The truth will set you free
In your own words

 

[Northbaypkg]

I run a company for profit. I volunteer my time to help the less fortunate. You seem confused about what I should base my decisions on for my business. In your long rant you didn’t answer the benefit to my company to having drivers work for years.

And the only non benefit you listed was injury. A 20 year old can get injured just like a 40 year old can. Meanwhile the experience of that driver with years of time under his belt means all those skills you mentioned, safety, time management, and efficiency only gets better. With a team of experienced drivers there'd be even less worry for you, no training necessary, etc. But with the turnover you have and seem to want, you don't get to experience that for long.

Let's be real, you couldn't keep a good driver for long term even if you wanted to. So you convince yourself that it's not beneficial to do so under the guise of injury. Hey whatever helps you sleep at night.

And you never answered my questions before. How long does a good driver stay with you before moving on? What's the average length of stay for all your drivers?

 

[tourists24]

I run a company for profit. I volunteer my time to help the less fortunate. You seem confused about what I should base my decisions on for my business. In your long rant you didn’t answer the benefit to my company to having drivers work for years.

I can definitely see why you don't like the Teamster driver..... Although it's not because they are "lazy". For you, it's about the profit. The worker is throw away when they don't maximize your profit. Understandable from your perspective. Although I would argue they're many many long term UPS Teamsters that could still run circles around your two month seasoned and well trained work force. But like you said, the longer they're around, the more risk of injury. We don't wanna ruin that profit margin for you

 

[It will be fine]

And the only non benefit you listed was injury. A 20 year old can get injured just like a 40 year old can. Meanwhile the experience of that driver with years of time under his belt means all those skills you mentioned, safety, time management, and efficiency only gets better. With a team of experienced drivers there'd be even less worry for you, no training necessary, etc. But with the turnover you have and seem to want, you don't get to experience that for long.

Let's be real, you couldn't keep a good driver for long term even if you wanted to. So you convince yourself that it's not beneficial to do so under the guise of injury. Hey whatever helps you sleep at night.

And you never answered my questions before. How long does a good driver stay with you before moving on? What's the average length of stay for all your drivers?

Average tenure is a few years, I have a handful that have been with me over 10 years. The truth is the older workers slow down more than their experience compensates for. My most productive drivers are young guys with about a year in. You aren’t learning much new after 6 months, by then you should know all the shortcuts and techniques that you’ll ever use in this job.

You think it’s worth it to beat up your body and cause lasting injuries because the money is good at UPS, I disagree. It’s an entry level job that workers should move on from.

 

[It will be fine]

I can definitely see why you don't like the Teamster driver..... Although it's not because they are "lazy". For you, it's about the profit. The worker is throw away when they don't maximize your profit. Understandable from your perspective. Although I would argue they're many many long term UPS Teamsters that could still run circles around your two month seasoned and well trained work force. But like you said, the longer they're around, the more risk of injury. We don't wanna ruin that profit margin for you

Corporation exist for profit. Teamsters exist to take as much money out of the corporation as they can regardless of the harm it does to the corporation. The 97 strike cost UPS about a billion dollars in 97 alone and countless billions in future lost sales. How many more driver jobs would UPS have if the union made a better decision?

 

[Mutineer]

I wish that prospective delivery drivers out there would see this exchange between us so they could choose the company they work for appropriately. If you only want to work as a driver for a few years and move on to something else, FedEx ground is for you. If you want a career in delivery, UPS is for you.

You write this as if UPS rolls out a red carpet for prospective couriers begging them NOT to go to FedEx.

The personal experiences of myself, and many co-workers I have known over many years could not be more the opposite. Applying at UPS, even when they were advertising for workers, has been akin to an unwashed transient propositioning a billionaire supermodel for a gang-bang behind an overflowing dumpster.

And the only non benefit you listed was injury. A 20 year old can get injured just like a 40 year old can. Meanwhile the experience of that driver with years of time under his belt means all those skills you mentioned, safety, time management, and efficiency only gets better. With a team of experienced drivers there'd be even less worry for you, no training necessary, etc. But with the turnover you have and seem to want, you don't get to experience that for long.

Let's be real, you couldn't keep a good driver for long term even if you wanted to. So you convince yourself that it's not beneficial to do so under the guise of injury. Hey whatever helps you sleep at night.

And you never answered my questions before. How long does a good driver stay with you before moving on? What's the average length of stay for all your drivers?

I agree with Itzy on almost nothing. However, on the subject of this occupation, I could not agree with him more.

Your assertations on this subject are very much what mine used to be. You are living in the past.

Reality dictates that he only needs to pay for drivers that are 'good enough.' And the bar gets lower every year.

In less than twenty ears, a person reflecting on his experiences and compensation having driven for both FedEx Ground and UPS will be in the curious and ridiculous position of being unable to decide which is worse.

When you hear of otherwise sensible people advocating for open borders, this is exactly the reality they have in mind for you and me.

 

[Northbaypkg]

Average tenure is a few years, I have a handful that have been with me over 10 years. The truth is the older workers slow down more than their experience compensates for. My most productive drivers are young guys with about a year in. You aren’t learning much new after 6 months, by then you should know all the shortcuts and techniques that you’ll ever use in this job.

You think it’s worth it to beat up your body and cause lasting injuries because the money is good at UPS, I disagree. It’s an entry level job that workers should move on from.

Yeah that makes sense. Your most productive guys are probably guys that are out there truly beating up their bodies to make their numbers look good for you. Your older employees work at a pace that doesn't beat up their bodies aka safely. Like the #1 saying for us UPS employees, it's a marathon, not a sprint. You want a bunch of sprinters because that's beneficial to you. The employee would rather be a marathon runner, but that doesn't benefit you as much.

Thing is, I don't beat up my body doing this job. Yes there are certain repetitive motions we make which over time will have an impact down the line but no more so than any other highly active person. But I've been at this job for 23 years now and haven't had a single lost time injury. I attribute that to my marathon pace. Doesn't mean I'm a slug out there, it just means I'm not gonna cut corners in the name of numbers. Just like you claim I'm exaggerating about the turnover at ground, I believe you exaggerate how much a delivery driver beats up their body. Maybe working at the pace you want that happens. Maybe that's why you despise the union so much, they protect us from slave driving bosses.

 

[It will be fine]

Yeah that makes sense. Your most productive guys are probably guys that are out there truly beating up their bodies to make their numbers look good for you. Your older employees work at a pace that doesn't beat up their bodies aka safely. Like the #1 saying for us UPS employees, it's a marathon, not a sprint. You want a bunch of sprinters because that's beneficial to you. The employee would rather be a marathon runner, but that doesn't benefit you as much.

Thing is, I don't beat up my body doing this job. Yes there are certain repetitive motions we make which over time will have an impact down the line but no more so than any other highly active person. But I've been at this job for 23 years now and haven't had a single lost time injury. I attribute that to my marathon pace. Doesn't mean I'm a slug out there, it just means I'm not gonna cut corners in the name of numbers. Just like you claim I'm exaggerating about the turnover at ground, I believe you exaggerate how much a delivery driver beats up their body. Maybe working at the pace you want that happens. Maybe that's why you despise the union so much, they protect us from slave driving bosses.

Who said I despise the union? I said I would hate to work alongside union workers. You view your employer as an entity that owes you something. I see things as employees need to earn their compensation. It’s a fundamental difference of viewpoint.

 

[tourists24]

Corporation exist for profit. Teamsters exist to take as much money out of the corporation as they can regardless of the harm it does to the corporation. The 97 strike cost UPS about a billion dollars in 97 alone and countless billions in future lost sales. How many more driver jobs would UPS have if the union made a better decision?

That first sentence is the exact reason unions exist. I can reverse the second sentence to make the same point (just substitute worker for teamster). Just look at the past for what length corporate will go to justify making profit. All the worn out arguments can be rehashed, but profit will not be made without a productive worker. You think you can accomplish that without taking the employee's livelihood in mind, the wheel will continue to spin.