Trump into the DMZ

[jimdandy3]

have they ever elected one?

My point exactly. We keep giving them ones they don't want.

 

[newfie]

My point exactly. We keep giving them ones they don't want.

you say keep . I see one . Shah junior and the people didnt object to that move originally. In fact they were likely more comfortable with that decision since they were used to daddy Shah who had run the country since 1925.

Shah junior actually took power before 1953 but gradually lost it not because he was a tryant but because he tried to modernize Iran. In so doing he lost the support of the Shiite clergy .

the same clergy who became his undoing in 1979. So while his tryanical ways later contributed the underlying root cause of his downfall was the conflict between his efforts to modernize Iran and the clergies efforts to retain a stricter theocratic state.

the overthrow in 1953 basically delayed that move to the eventual theocracy that evolved. The force behind the evolution to a theocracy was stronger then the efforts by shah junior to sell modernization.

 

[newfie]

So I will agree the US needs to interfere less in the affairs of other countries and I think the US has done a poor job of picking winners and losers in many cases.

but in this case there was much more at play then simply blaming the US for the downfall of Iran.

 

[Old Man Jingles]

News Flash: The Blue Angels is a show designed to recruit impressionable enlistees who become boiler mates in the bottom of a destroyer. Then again you have to deceive them or you won't get them to sign up. In fact like pimps there were Navy recruiters standing outside movie theaters that were showing Top Gun. Look Newf respecting the military is one thing, idolizing it is another. Rest assured the next time America is entangled in a drawn out costly and bloody Korea/Vietnam style war with no clear objectives no exit plan and no victory in sight that pseudo patriotism you're enamored with will disappear before your very eyes.....and quickly.

Why do you hate America? LOL

 

[jimdandy3]

you say keep . I see one . Shah junior and the people didnt object to that move originally. In fact they were likely more comfortable with that decision since they were used to daddy Shah who had run the country since 1925.

Shah junior actually took power before 1953 but gradually lost it not because he was a tryant but because he tried to modernize Iran. In so doing he lost the support of the Shiite clergy .

the same clergy who became his undoing in 1979. So while his tryanical ways later contributed the underlying root cause of his downfall was the conflict between his efforts to modernize Iran and the clergies efforts to retain a stricter theocratic state.

the overthrow in 1953 basically delayed that move to the eventual theocracy that evolved. The force behind the evolution to a theocracy was stronger then the efforts by shah junior to sell modernization.

I agree with that...but we will never know what MIGHT have happened.

 

[jimdandy3]

So I will agree the US needs to interfere less in the affairs of other countries and I think the US has done a poor job of picking winners and losers in many cases.

but in this case there was much more at play then simply blaming the US for the downfall of Iran.

What winners have we picked? We were one of many reasons it happened. We can only control our part in it.

 

[newfie]

I agree with that...but we will never know what MIGHT have happened.

you should educate yourself. I lived Iran . it was and continues to be a very complicated situation that today continues to reflect our challenges in the middle east.

there continues to be a battle between modernization and those who wish to hold onto the strict fundamentalist religious ideals they evolved from.

modernization will soften and fatten them to the western ways and its why the ayatollahs and other zealots continue to fight the western influence.

 

[newfie]

What winners have we picked? We were one of many reasons it happened. We can only control our part in it.

leadership of jordan. Leadership of Israel? Israel is probably our biggest success story in the middle east

 

[jimdandy3]

you should educate yourself. I lived Iran . it was and continues to be a very complicated situation that today continues to reflect our challenges in the middle east.

there continues to be a battle between modernization and those who wish to hold onto the strict fundamentalist religious ideals they evolved from.

modernization will soften and fatten them to the western ways and its why the ayatollahs and other zealots continue to fight the western influence.

How the average person feel about the sanctions put on them?

 

[newfie]

while Saudi Arabia is far from a human rights success you can even point to them as a success. yes they will embarass us by a killing a journalist every now and then but they have been a big help to us in stabalizing not only the middle east but our oil prices too.

 

[newfie]

How the average person feel about the sanctions put on them?

hopefully they'll hate them and overthrow the government . thats the intent behind those sanctions

 

[jimdandy3]

while Saudi Arabia is far from a human rights success you can even point to them as a success. yes they will embarass us by a killing a journalist every now and then but they have been a big help to us in stabalizing not only the middle east but our oil prices too.

They did help out with the fall of the Soviet Union when they lowered their oil prices.

 

[vantexan]

Georgia and Ukraine border Russia.


They only definitive action was the coup.

And? Does that give them the right to run over them?

 

[jimdandy3]

hopefully they'll hate them and overthrow the government . thats the intent behind those sanctions

But do they hate their government or ours for the sanctions? Because they have been around for a long time.

 

[newfie]

But do they hate their government or ours for the sanctions? Because they have been around for a long time.

they might . its always the soldiers that feel the pain of conflict . never the generals

 

[jimdandy3]

And? Does that give them the right to run over them?

That is for Russia to decide.

 

[vantexan]

That is for Russia to decide.

And for Europe to bolster their defenses because of what Russia decided.

 

[jimdandy3]

And for Europe to bolster their defenses because of what Russia decided.

Europe or NATO?

 

[vantexan]

Europe or NATO?

One and the same essentially. Sovereign nations who experienced decades of domination by the Russians are trying to make certain Russia doesn't do it again, thus NATO gets invited into places like Poland. Not for Russia to decide their foreign policy, but Russian actions certainly influence their foreign policy.

 

[jimdandy3]

One and the same essentially. Sovereign nations who experienced decades of domination by the Russians are trying to make certain Russia doesn't do it again, thus NATO gets invited into places like Poland. Not for Russia to decide their foreign policy, but Russian actions certainly influence their foreign policy.

Why doesn't Poland get treated better by the US?

It’s Time for Poland to Join the Visa Waiver Program