What is oversupervision?

[dannyboy]

Well I guess in your area drug offenders work for the cops? Is that why you think it is the same thing?

Sorry in this country, you are inocent until proven guilty. That is the way the founding fathers wanted it. Without that you end up with the ruling class acting like the gestapo. Maybe you want to work for people like that, but I dont.

If you have a driver stealing time, there are many different ways to catch and get rid of one than to stalk him.

d

 

[badhab1]

Sorry Danny, many of your post are well thought out and reasonable. To many this one may be too but I take exception to it. To suggest that following and observing a driver is tantamount to "stalking" is stretching it. Any employee on the inside is subject to be observed either visually or by camera by management when they are not aware of it. Why should a driver using my equipment, with my customers packages, and being compensated by me not have the potential for the same observation if management feels it is merited. Yes, for this dialogue I use "my" and the "companies'" as interchangeable based on bearing of responsibility. Never once in my career did local or state law enforcement contradict this position, nor have I ever lost a case at the panel over this issue. The driver is not some autonomous diety once they leave the company premises. Just for your info, over thirty, most in hub & feeder & labor. Option level retiree. I don't intend to do battle over the issue, I simply disagree 100% and always have. Stalking, as the law intends it to be defined, is a serious crime that merits prompt action. Following a driver suspected of screwing off, or even stealing is often a waste of time but hardly "stalking". Have a nice day

 

[toonertoo]

I dont know about stalking but heads up, they are checking..doors locked etc. Even going to customers to confirm they signed for a package at a certain time and showing them the signature. Unfortunately one guy got fired , because someone was asked and they said they gave the driver permission to sign. Younger drivers may take this risk so as not to have late air, and the customer said its OK to do it, but guaranteed if you go down this road it will come to a dead end. If it is truly OK with the consignee that they have late air, use the key that says customer request later delivery. When they move the start time later, and expect it to be done quicker because of it and we do it, we are just feeding the fire. If air is late, let it be late, dont deliver any ground first and there is nothing they can do. Just tell supervision in a professional way, that you have a better chance of seeing God than delivering your air on time, and if they dont give you help, do the best you can do but by the book. Then when they are crunching their numbers, the truth will stand tall. I dont know what entity is sending down these orders, but he/she/ they are seeing that their plan is working when drivers cheat, or sups do the delivering. And I do not know why they choose to fire drivers for trying to do their job and keep UPS looking good, but they are, and they do. I think trying to get rid of senior drivers, to hire lower paid drivers is part of the plan. but that is just my opinion.

 

[dannyboy]

I Dont intend to argue the point, just stating the facts as they happened here. The sup that was folowing the driver was diciplined and relocated to another center. Personally, if management is sure the driver is stealing time, I would have no problem with them setting up a sting to catch the thief (because that is what he is). But just to follow a driver around to intimidate and harrass is and will always be wrong. And in this area they (upper managers) put a stop to it.

How do you feel about this situation?

Supervisior gets caught delivering packages out of thier own car several times, both during the day and on thier way home. Grievances were filed and money paid. Division manager states that they will continue to do so, because they only get caught a small fraction of the time, and he will just pay the small number of times they get caught.

So a couple of drivers take turns watching this manager and follow him around. I your oppinion would there be any difference that if management follows drivers?

Toner

We have a driver that has been followed around quite a bit. He makes deliveries and either every other one or every other third one goes into pre-record. Then when he takes lunch out on the road, every three or four minutes he hits pre-record and stop complete while eating. Sometimes he will "deliver" 15 or more stops while eating lunch. Then he gets back to the building and "takes his lunch". IMHO the guys needs fired, but it is not my place to do it. And it seems management is too scared of him to clean his plow so......

But as has been mentioned, every excess will have its own undoing. His day WILL come.

d

(Message edited by dannyboy on July 10, 2003)

 

[toonertoo]

danny boy I dont see how that helps his time etc., if he made the delivery it is time wasted, if he is saving it for later I dont see how he profits unless he is rocket man. bonus man. If he is saving it because he did it during "air time" he will get caught as in someone will call to report a damage, misdelivery etc, and nothing will show up being delivered yet. But as long as he has an honest signature, or DR, he probably didnt do anything wrong, you could always say you hit the wrong key, there would be ways out I guess, but I dont see the logic. I guess its like if you tell the same lie long enough you start to believe its true. With the time constraints we have, I want to know how much I actually have done, I dont want to cheat, just get through the day with all customers smiling. I try to keep all customers as happy as possible with as little abuse as possible to myself. God knows we get enough just getting where we have to go. Any job anywhere is going to have good and bad mgmt., good and bad hourly, good and bad days, etc. Just remembering that it is a job, it is what you do to live, not necessarily what you live to do. It is called work, if it was always fun it would be illegal or called something else. And just do it the way it should be done and remember how many people depend on you to make their day or keep their business in business, is what keeps me going. And being good at it, and the heck with the rest. If everyone is happy, no one is following you. If you are the one never noticed, or brought up in conversation among management, its a good place to be. I still dont think, unless given a reason, management other than normal checkups, has the time to follow you around, including LP. They are hammered with numerous missions we will never hear about, at least where I am from. But just to be safe, I do it by the book. I love the freedom of being alone all day, and only an occasional rift in my schedule. And they walk away happy too, when they dont have to report anything they found done wrong or illegally. But as usual its just my opinion.

 

[feederdryver]

So a couple of drivers take turns watching this manager and follow him around. I your oppinion would there be any difference that if management follows drivers?


Dannyboy-

In my opinion, these drivers are spending too much time watching the supes and not delivering the packages. That would be stealing time (unless they are following them while on lunch), so that's not a good example.

However, the part about the supes helping with the deliveries. That is a day to day judgement call. If the supes are just delivering a few "overlooked" stragglers, because there were no more drivers left in the building, well then... GOD BLESS HIM !! He's doing his part to help the company satisfy the customers and I have no problem with that.
But, if supes are continually delivering packages everyday for more than 5 hours a day, then I can see justifying a grievance filing. Like I said, it's a judgement call and shouldn't be rushed into making. I'm sure the supes can think of better things to be doing than delivering packages.
I mean hey..... they got to catch up on all that "stalking"
Dohp !!!

hahahahaha (I crack myself up !!)

 

[upslocal480]

<font color="0000ff">Following anyone on a regular basis(management following hourly or vice versa) is wrong no matter how it is explained. There is no comparison between this and cops following around suspects of any crime and until sups (or vice versa) carry a badge as an officer of the law they should not have the right to follow someone like that.</font>

 

[dannyboy]

Local

This is where you are wrong.

UPS can not use the info gathering device against the driver. What this driver is in essence doing is getting one lunch and getting paid for another at the overtime rate. In this case management would have to go to where he is "taking his lunch" and document that he is sitting in the establishment for the hour. Then when they pull the sparks report, they can then use both the information in the diad and the visual documentation against the driver at the hearing. Unless they have both, it is a lost cause. In his case I would expect they would set up a sting to catch the guy.

But as I said earlier, just to follow the driver around for harrassment is wrong.

And as for the drivers following the sup around, they are on their own time. Is it right or wrong, in your opinion? IMHO it is definatly wrong and he would have the same right to call the law to have them stoped.

d Typing things after a hard day and night is tough. I think I needed a spell checker

 

[upslocal480]

<font color="0000ff">Well, I am right then because I sure as hell wasn't talking about the diad info because I haven't the slightest clue what you drivers are talking about when it comes to that.

I was only referring to sups following drivers around with no or little reason. I gather we agree on frequent following as being harrassment though? Correct? </font>

 

[over9five]

Of course theyre going to follow us! What the Hell else do they have to do? I imagine they have to account for their time somehow. Knowing UPS, theres a report "code" for it.... You know, "Code 86 - Followed Over9five - 6 hours".
Who cares! Wave to them when you spot them!

 

[tieguy]

"Following anyone on a regular basis(management following hourly or vice versa) is wrong no matter how it is explained. There is no comparison between this and cops following around suspects of any crime and until sups (or vice versa) carry a badge as an officer of the law they should not have the right to follow someone like that."

I think many of you are acting on some preconcieved notions. Many of you responding to this thread are professionals. You believe in providing the best service possible and do so regardless of who is watching. Not all of your brothers are so diligent. Watching drivers on routes are not all expeditions to catch someone stealing time though most probably are. Watching drivers also gives you insight to whether they do the same job they demonstrate when a sup rides with them. Local 480 this is not all cops and robbers stuff and yes we do have a right to watch our drivers on the route and make sure they represent our interests and our standards on the route. I don't believe we should do so on "fishing" expeditions. I do believe we should and more often do because there are questions about specific events that happen on a route that show up on the numerous reports we print. Sometimes we may be the victim of bad information and obseving the driver tells us so. But I don't know too many management folks that have a whole lot of time to spend on these "fishing" expeditions.

 

[upslocal480]

<font color="0000ff">Fishing expeditions is actually exactly what I'm talking about. It is just like if my sup would follow me around all night (especially frequent nights) standing over my shoulder waiting for me to miss handle a package so he can scream "hand to surface," waiting on me to stop working for 5 seconds to wipe sweat out of my eyes so he can say "too many people standing around doing nothing," and etc.. Randomly following drivers around once in a blue moon or if someone is suspected of wrong doing then YES I believe it is warranted.</font>

 

[tieguy]

And thats my point there is not enough time in the day to go on these fishing expeditions. Something has to trigger it before we would do so.

 

[upslocal480]

<font color="0000ff">Believe it or not allot of sups do things like whats been discussed after their shift is over. Supervisors are salary so that really gives them the flexibility to do whatever they want once they have completed their usual duties each day. One of ours spends all of his time at home after work calling the center to gripe at our part-time sup and this particular supervisor has been known to just "drop by" from time to time during the reload shift and has even been spotted following around the later drivers and even the P.M Air drivers late at night. We've busted this person sitting in their vehicle in neighboring business's parking lots at night trying to hide and spy on us. We haven't tried to consider these things harrassment but instead laugh when it happens. It's sups like this particular one that are more likely going to get nailed for harrassment. I mean if they are willing to spend all of their free time doing these things than maybe they should get nailed.

</font>

 

[tieguy]

I'm not sure what your point is. Supervisors are not just salaried employees but owners of the business. This person takes his responsibilities seriously. A salaried position is not an hourly one. You don't just walk away from an operation. It sounds like your in one of the smaller buildings. Your sup has overall responsibility for the local sort along with his delivery position. He calls to check on the local sort sup from home and pops in occasionally to check on him and make sure hes ok. I really don't think you understand the management job.

 

[antimatter]

Tieguy,

I too, am an owner in our business but I wouldn't hide in a closet (in a Center office) and peek out to make sure the supervisors are doing THEIR jobs. There could be more to it, though. Maybe a theft problem, or maybe just a Sup out to make a "name" for himself with a few scalps.

A

 

[tieguy]

It sounds like the sup 480 describes is probably a little overzealous but My point still is I don't think you fully understand the management job. Train and audit are two words that should go hand in hand for a management person. You train the people to do the job a specific way and then you audit to make sure they are doing it.

 

[local804]

Tieguy,
Train and audit are 100% correct but how do you justify the same 10 people getting audited and no one else? As for your "Supervisors are not just salaried employees but owners of the business" The last time I checked, UPS employees owned a nice chunk of stock just as well as the public.The only difference is that we bought it and did not have it handed to us as a bonus.It seems like the only supervisiors and managers that know what the hell they are doing(and not just harass) are the ones that were drivers in the first place. There is NO way a suit, hired for who he knows, not what he knows should be in that position.It looks to me tieguy, is that you are old school(which is out) and one sided(management). You need to open your eyes and give credit to the guys who break their backs everyday and try to work as a team.Enough said.....LETS GO YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tieguy]

804 one of the complexities of the management job. Sometimes you have to do some soul searching and make sure your fair in how you make that determination. Your point about ownership is fair until you use the words "handed to them" at which point I think your discrediting the efforts of those management folks. I have no problem agreeing with you on giving credit as you say , that point however valid is not what I believe is being discussed here. I think you would have to agree that most of our people come in and try to do a good job and there are a few others who do need to be supervised and do need to be audited. The issue is not what style I am but how we determine who needs the extra attention. So I'll throw that one into your lap. Tell me how?

 

[kidlogic]

The point he is trying to make is that auditing is used as a tool to discipline. Case in point.:
We have 2 drivers in our building. One is ranked as having more accidents and injuries then anyone in our building. He also has more complaints and driver follow-ups in the building. But the catch is he is 1 to 1.5 hours paid under. We have another who has one or two compaints and driver follow-ups a year. Has a clean driving and injury record.But runs a buck paid over and has a chip on his shoulders. Who needs the ride more???? The paid over guy gets the 5 day ride. And when he gets the ride he goes from being a buck over to a buck and a half over with a supervisor on car!!. Who gets the next ride?? You guessed it. The same guy again. 804 it's the same everywhere.