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gman

Guest
My point exactly. You can only give away so many dollars before all you have left is pennies. It's great for the guys that got the 3 G's but now the rest of us will get less to support them. Kinda like social security. Most of them collect more in a year than they paid in their entire life. God bless them but this generation is going to carry the load for a lot of people and we will probably end up with the least.
 
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toonertoo

Guest
I heard from a customer of course, Not through a PCM, that our size limit was going to 160 in, with 108 still being maximum length. I think I've had a few already, it was suppose to start in January, but customer did not have a date. We will be told on a need to know basis, I am sure, I dont think we have needed to be told about BASIC" yet, unless the drivers who have Post Offices have been told.
 
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tieguy

Guest
I had thought it was clearly evident that CS has bowed to pressure when they raised their payout to 3K a month in 97. The funny thing is if the 2004 stock market keeps huming along like it is Central States might be giving you a "never mind" by the end of the year.
 
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my2cents

Guest
wkmac,

Just curious, but did the reps say anything about any real estate holdings? In our pension fund's case, the real estate portolio was able to offset some of the losses incurred in the stock market and the low amounts of interest income. I'm also wondering if Central States has any restrictions on adding real estate to their mix of investments, due to past nefarious dealings in Las Vegas and possibly elsewhere. If there are restrictions, this could have an effect on the performance of the fund because it is less diversified.
 
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dannyboy

Guest
IT sounds like their investing got hit the way my 401K got hit. I lost over 50% since 2000, way more than I was even putting in.

The up shot is that since last july I have almost recouped my losses and have about broken even. If the market keeps humming allong the way it has in the past year, I figure it will double in two years.

I agree with Tie, might be a big todo about nothing. But in the long run, maybe things need changing.

IN our joint council, there are 4 trustees that make all the rules, cuts and any other decisions affecting our pension and health insurance. Every ruling they decide is binding and takes effect immediately without appeal. The worst part is that all 4 trustees have no UPS experience, but are over the road people. Currently we are trying to change that mix, but it is tough shaking up the "good ole boy bunch" to see to it we get proper representation. After all we are 75% or more of the contributing employees.

d
 
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upscorpis

Guest
Toonertoo,

Services get changed a lot with the rate change. If you're interested, the website has all the info. I'm not sure that it's prudent to PCM everyone on all the service and rate changes as they are plentiful. However, if the management team is expecting you to not pick up packages that don't belong in the system, you should be informed as to what is allowed.
 
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upscorpis

Guest
The bottom line is that the board is responsible for the current situation. There are many other funds doing well. Why is this one in so much trouble? It seems to me the board should be held accountable. It's not hard to understand that with 50% union makeup, many would point to the union as the culprit. However, the companies participated so they are also accountable for the result. Pointing fingers doesn't solve anything. This problem is multifaceted as mentioned by many others. It's the inability of the fund trustees to properly plan that is at fault. That being said, the group being hurt by this agreed to having the trustee setup in place today. It may be callous but it seems like sour grapes to complain about it now. Figuring out the problems and dealing with them constuctively and without emotion is the only hope.
 
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my2cents

Guest
Bull market performance may erase part of the problem short term, but as long as there are more retirees drawing benefits than participants paying into the system, it still looks like what Social Security is going through. This dynamic isn't going away any time soon. Should be interesting to see what solutions are offered.
 
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brownmonster

Guest
If we are the face of UPS to the customer than we should know about the services and changes being offered.
 
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toonertoo

Guest
I totally agree Brownmonster. If I had got a pkg that big, using the measuring chain from long ago, I would have refused to pick it up. But at least our customers know whats going on...I guess I should check the site more often, but I dont, it should be common knowledge to driver, clerk, and operations. It should be announced to US.
 
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spongebob

Guest
The new service is called OS3. We got PCM'd on it a couple weeks ago, and we are already seeing a few packages with OS3 on the label.
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
There really isn't anything nefarious or terribly hard to understand about the pension problem. Fixes, now there's a tough problem.

Too many retirees, not enough active working contributors to cover the retirement payouts.

The fund increased the payout in direct response to the pressure applied to it in matching the UPS promises during their take over attempt of it in '97 contracts.

That was great as a future promise and for retirees at the time.

However, that immediately made for a substantial shortfall between what companies were contributing and what was needed to pay the retirees.

At that point the fund (both company and union) needed to figure out how to shrink the difference.

The active ways would be increased company contributions per employee (there is a limit here and would be different for every company(read that as a new bracket for UPS employees), but still there would be a limit and couldn't come close to covering the imbalance, but could help) and to increase the amount of active contributing members.

In other words "grow" the union base, either through increased membership at the existing companies and unionizing more companies.

In regards to UPS, not a problem, elsewhere however. . .

The trend went the other way.

That left doing well in the stock market as the short term make up answer.

Targeting an average of 8% profit per year while not conservative was with in the realm of reason as that is the historical average for the stock market.

However, due to the trend of less active workers, more retirees, even that target was treading water at best.

The results were predictable. Ultimately the stock market would go bear and with the other negative trends the music would have to be faced.

We are there.

The only reason why it wasn't until 2003 rather than 2002 (the fund dropped from mid 18 billion to low 15 billion) is the fund tried to avoid reality as long as possible. BTW, this was a great year, around 25% up and it is my understanding the fund is back up around 18 billion again.

The reason why our fund is in trouble and some others are not is mainly a matter of who makes up the fund.

Central States is a "mature" fund that has a higher percentage of retirees and retirees from companies that no longer exist or contribute to the fund.

Funds in better shape did not necessarily do better (or less worse) in the stock market than Central States. They just have more active workers than retirees in respect to Central States.

For the most part that means UPS employees make up a larger percentage of their fund.

Would a fund consisting of all UPS employees be better off? FAR

Can it be done, will it be allowed?

Not without the intercession of UPS.

And it isn't that simple.

What you've earned with the Central States Fund would still be with them. It isn't a matter of just switching over and UPS pays you everything.

In the short term the most effective and most economical thing UPS could do to support UPS employees is to uphold the promises at the medical end of the pension (benefits and premiums) for which they alone are responsible to their employees.

If UPS really wants to protect UPS workers (you know, put your money where your mouth is) they can at the medical end immediately.

Will they?

Who knows, so far it doesn't look good.

(Message edited by Ok2bclever on January 25, 2004)
 
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toonertoo

Guest
Talking about service changes, and it turns into personally slamming of posters!!! I think someone is out of line. If I were Cheryl I would toss crap like that. Just because all of us dont spend all of our time researching what we do and who we work for 24/7 hardly calls for that kind of an attack. I think you must be a PC NERD!! But I am sure GMAN will take care of you all by himself. JMHO
 
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gman

Guest
Old School

I'm so very confused. I was not responding to anything you said. I was talking about a UPS buy of Yell/Road, you know, the original topic on this thread. But thank you for your kind name calling. BTW, whats a PCA and apparently I don't know anything about thousands of people losing their jobs in my little universe. But I would like to know if you could be a little more civil and tell us about it in a more gentlemanly manner. :-)
 
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gman

Guest
Once again, the blame does not go to the trustees investing the money. The blame goes to the negotiating committee that promised more than they could provide. ALL funds lost money in the last four years. But when you are paying FOUR retirees for every ONE working stiff, the plan fails. Even if the fund is making money, it is hard to believe it can keep up with the promises the trustees have made.

Other funds have a better worker to retiree ratio. Thats why they are in better shape.
 
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my2cents

Guest
ok2,

Well thought out post. If you don't mind my asking, what's your opinion on partitioning?
 
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old_school

Guest
gman

I apologize for assuming that your post was directed at my post. It directly followed mine, and I jumped to conclusions. I have several longtime friends that are looking at unemployment.

PCAs are the people that our customers call when they need help: i.e. tracking, claims, and other personalized services. They are primarily for what are known as "preferred customers" (thus the name Prefered Customer Associate) although they help lots of customers. They are a local function that acts as liaison between the customer and the UPS corporate monster. We have retained many customers and resolved countless potentially messy disputes over the years due to their efforts. The entire department will be going away in 90 days, with most of those effected losing their job. They had an opportunity to unionize at the same time the customer counter clerks did, but the company assured them they were an essential function and would always be well taken care of. Customers are now going to have to call 800PICKUPS, and everyone has heard those horror stories (BTW the people on the 800# are NOT UPS workers, it is an outside call center that we contract with). In addition, the local payroll departments are going to be eliminated within a year (outsourced), along with many other admin jobs: various positions in security and basically any other non-union, non-management jobs could be affected. This was the announcement made on the big super-secret call last Thursday.
 
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tomb

Guest
I did the morning thing for 5 years. I loved it. I took my kids fishing and tubing in the summer and we went skating and sledding in the winter. When they walked to school, I met them in the afternoon and walked home with them.

It was the good life.

Tom B
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
I think I'd have to side with Wkmac on that one at this time.

I don't think I see any personal advantage from what I have read, but the jury is out until more specifics are involved.

In general, I am far more a UPSer than Teamster, but the company has never shown me an excessive generosity or even benevolence that wasn't contractually inspired.

I begged for a 401k with some sort of partial company matching long before most division managers had decided to go into management.

A decade later we got one with no matching funds and a no service/high cost SMA. If they had done it when they should have I wouldn't have even had to care about the pension issue.

I pushed for the right to buy company stock long before it went public. Again, if that had been allowed in a timely manner I could have retired a couple of years ago with multiple millions like a few center managers I know.

Instead, I find myself where I have always been, bringing up the rear of the baby boom generation. Hand me downs. Due to personal investing I am in better shape than most driver's in my age group, but no where near as good as I envisioned just four years ago.

Looking back I see I should have sold my yearly turkey and invested the money.
 
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