Feeder Work Question

[alister]

Please dont start the dramatics here with the typical swinging dick with a tie mentatlity!

Your worried about fedex taking this volume because you expect us to believe that the customer came up with tis idea all by themselves. The customer said i want to use ups ground because my driver av8 said you can help us. But you know i want the greay semis to drive my ground packages from point a to pint b, BS!

How come when union employees bring up ideas to grow the business you dont listen but your quick to subcontract out our work?

Heres an idea!
If i go into a 10 story office building for 5 pick ups, why cant we combine all the customers in this same building and give them all the same rate for shipping? You treat lets say 25 companies as 1 and calculate their shipping rate as you would a bigger shipper, and instantly we gain more packages. This is what fedex does and this is why its hard for us to gain more business. Now instaed of spending 15 minutes for a dozen or so packages you are now spending 30 mins and pulling out hundreds.

By the way routes are built on stops not pieces, but im sure you knew that already!

First of all, I think av8 said FedEx was doing something similar to the zone skipping that is in place now. Maybe our zone skipping method was the only way to win the business. They weren't using FedEx because they thought they were cute. there had to be a reason why they where using them and there had to be a reason why they switched to us. I thought you knew that ups is a greedy company and if they could charge the customer as much as they could get away with.

Red, would you still have a problem with this if you knew without a doubt that this was the only way the company would do business with us?

Personally i think your idea about consolidating shipments is a good idea. upsers.com has an idea submitting page. just type "submit an idea" into the search box and press search button and its the first hit. I will also share this with my supervisor at work and see what he thinks. maybe they will listen if enough people say something.

Yes your right, I know routes are made of stops, but stops are made of packages. no package no stop.

 

[av8torntn]

First of all, I think av8 said FedEx was doing something similar to the zone skipping that is in place now. .

No sorry I was not clear. To ship fedex these guys were having to load ground on a fedex ground trailer and overnight on a fedex express trailer then two day on another fedex express trailer. Not sure if maybe you were thinking the two day was doing some kind of zone skipping.

 

[gandydancer]

In the example I gave earlier we would have lost approximately 5 feeder runs and numerous pkg driver jobs and p/t hourly jobs if we had not kept the business with the two direct loads they run.

Large shipper with a sister operation in missouri. The sister operation had already switched to fdx. Fdx was wining and dining our facility hot and heavy. By SCS coming in and setting up the two direct moves we were able to keep the account and the jobs that are derived from keeping that account.

So, if the customer wants a direct move UPS can provide it using Feeder drivers, without needing to subcontract to UPSF and violate its agreement with the Teamsters or lose any volume at the delivery end. Except it can't afford a competitive bid on the 3,000 packages unless it makes the difference between what a UPSF driver costs and what a Feeder driver costs? Not a very plausible scenario. The orders of magnitude don't match up.

 

[705red]

Red, would you still have a problem with this if you knew without a doubt that this was the only way the company would do business with us?

Your right i would and do have a problem with this because it is our work!

You expect me to believe that the only way the customer would use us, is if their loads got moved by freight. I really don't think the customer cares who or how its moved just as long as they get their rate they were promised and service guarantees, which can still be done by using our feeder drivers.

 

[tieguy]

So, if the customer wants a direct move UPS can provide it using Feeder drivers, without needing to subcontract to UPSF and violate its agreement with the Teamsters or lose any volume at the delivery end. Except it can't afford a competitive bid on the 3,000 packages unless it makes the difference between what a UPSF driver costs and what a Feeder driver costs? Not a very plausible scenario. The orders of magnitude don't match up.

I don't know. All we have is sleeper teams. You need a penske outlet near the facility or you have to bring the sleeper teams in from other areas. Many of your sleeper teams have local contractual language written against moving regular ground work. I had a meanj team refuse a ground load last week because they said it was against their local language to move it.
I think your union negotiated that language to keep sleeper teams from taking brown network loads. But in the process they screwed theirselves out of these types of opportunities. Moving the loads through the brown network was not an option. The customer wanted the load moved direct to improve time in transit.So that option was not viable. But we did save those jobs in that area by retaining the account.

 

[tieguy]

Red, would you still have a problem with this if you knew without a doubt that this was the only way the company would do business with us?

Your right i would and do have a problem with this because it is our work!

You expect me to believe that the only way the customer would use us, is if their loads got moved by freight. I really don't think the customer cares who or how its moved just as long as they get their rate they were promised and service guarantees, which can still be done by using our feeder drivers.

Its really not your work. Your guys negotiated language to keep sleeper teams from moving this kind of work to protect the brown network guys from losing their loads. In the process you closed the door on other opportunities like this one. Thats the problem with unions as a whole in the process of trying to protect their work they sometimes paint theirselves into a corner.

 

[705red]

Tie in local 705 we have no sleeper teams, we do straight shots and 710 does all the over the road going out of the chicago area. Maybe someone from 710 could chime in.

 

[alister]

So, if the customer wants a direct move UPS can provide it using Feeder drivers, without needing to subcontract to UPSF and violate its agreement with the Teamsters or lose any volume at the delivery end. Except it can't afford a competitive bid on the 3,000 packages unless it makes the difference between what a UPSF driver costs and what a Feeder driver costs? Not a very plausible scenario. The orders of magnitude don't match up.

Its more a less a stated fact that zone skipping saves the customer money. Keeping this in mind, how would a UPS feeder driver be able to do this job?

 

[705red]

How does it cost more because of 4 bucks more an hour?

 

[av8torntn]

Its more a less a stated fact that zone skipping saves the customer money. Keeping this in mind, how would a UPS feeder driver be able to do this job?

How about have a feeder driver pull the trailer. We already have or had drivers going to the hub they want to zone skip to. The cost savings could come in by having the packages sorted fewer times. If they are going to pay UPS to move these packages why can UPS not pay it's drivers to move these packages. As far as I can tell UPS entered into an agreement with it's employees which gives us an exclusive right to move these packages outside of peak season. I see no exception in this agreement for the customers to pay UPS to zone skip it for them.

 

[alister]

How about have a feeder driver pull the trailer. We already have or had drivers going to the hub they want to zone skip to. The cost savings could come in by having the packages sorted fewer times. If they are going to pay UPS to move these packages why can UPS not pay it's drivers to move these packages. As far as I can tell UPS entered into an agreement with it's employees which gives us an exclusive right to move these packages outside of peak season. I see no exception in this agreement for the customers to pay UPS to zone skip it for them.

So you are telling me that every skid in that truck is going to one destination? I would have thought that they would be split out at the UPSF facility and then sent on different trucks across the country. Last time i checked, the ups small package facility I work at is not able to tranfer whole skids to differnt trucks.

 

[av8torntn]

So you are telling me that every skid in that truck is going to one destination? I would have thought that they would be split out at the UPSF facility and then sent on different trucks across the country. Last time i checked, the ups small package facility I work at is not able to tranfer whole skids to differnt trucks.

Ours can. We have eight dock doors with dock plates. They even have a forklift. We mainly use these doors to load irregs and to unload smalls trailers.

OK but say it is not what if only half the trailer is going to the next hub over I still am thinking that this violates the agreement UPS has with it's employees.

 

[alister]

Ours can. We have eight dock doors with dock plates. They even have a forklift. We mainly use these doors to load irregs and to unload smalls trailers.

OK but say it is not what if only half the trailer is going to the next hub over I still am thinking that this violates the agreement UPS has with it's employees.

I just cant believe you guys would rather the business go to a competitor than let us do it in house. I guess this could explain why the central states pension plan was so underfunded though.

 

[av8torntn]

I just cant believe you guys would rather the business go to a competitor than let us do it in house. I guess this could explain why the central states pension plan was so underfunded though.

I suppose it was to much for you to read the thread before you decided to comment. The point is I want UPS to keep our business in house instead of giving it away.

I have no idea what central states pension has to do with this or why you brought it up but good luck with your crying about it.

 

[gandydancer]

Ours can. We have eight dock doors with dock plates. They even have a forklift. We mainly use these doors to load irregs and to unload smalls trailers.

OK but say it is not what if only half the trailer is going to the next hub over I still am thinking that this violates the agreement UPS has with it's employees.

Alister is right that if the customers' skids are being sorted that that is UPSF work. Even if you've got docks and forklifts in your facility, you don't have the work rules in place and it's not bargaining unit work. But my understanding is that you were picking up 30 packages and signing for 3000 (or somesuch) and that the 3000 were being shipped direct to a hub (or hubs) in a different zone where nothing more happened than that the pallets, if any, were unloaded and the packages were dumped into the UPS system at that point. That work can and must be done by Feeder, because contracting it to UPSF is subcontracting in violation of the contract. Period.

 

[tieguy]

Ours can. We have eight dock doors with dock plates. They even have a forklift. We mainly use these doors to load irregs and to unload smalls trailers.

OK but say it is not what if only half the trailer is going to the next hub over I still am thinking that this violates the agreement UPS has with it's employees.

the problem is there really is no service within the realm of small package to move freight in this fashion.At the same time UPS does not have the freight expertise within small package to do this. In reading through article 43 it appears there is some language to create new positions off this type but it would probably have to be negotiated at a national level.

The only language I see that may support your position that its our work is the language that we will try to use bargaining unit employees first.

If the teamsters plan to fully organize UPS freight then they may be reluctant to enter into setups where small package moves freight or freight moves small package.

I believe you previously said your UPSF barn is already teamsters. If so then I would think they definitely would not want to cross the lines here.

The business is going to get more confusing as the teamsters organize freight and every faction acts like dogs marking their own territory.

I see some infighting within the teamsters in the future as each faction of the logistics network tries to carve out their share of the overall pie.

Imagine how complicated it could be if we organize fdx and they get in on the action.

I don't blame you for asking the questions and if nothing else they may lead to some clearer language in the future that more clearly defines whos work is what.

When it gets to that day then the rule of law will have to be that the customer decides what service they want and who they want it from.

 

[tieguy]

Alister is right that if the customers' skids are being sorted that that is UPSF work. Even if you've got docks and forklifts in your facility, you don't have the work rules in place and it's not bargaining unit work. But my understanding is that you were picking up 30 packages and signing for 3000 (or somesuch) and that the 3000 were being shipped direct to a hub (or hubs) in a different zone where nothing more happened than that the pallets, if any, were unloaded and the packages were dumped into the UPS system at that point. That work can and must be done by Feeder, because contracting it to UPSF is subcontracting in violation of the contract. Period.

Au contraire. The movement of merchandise by the customer by freight is a freight move. Whether UPS influences the decision or not is irrelevant. The customer dictates that movement and we comply. There is no language in the contract giving small package the rights to freight.

Customers have been drop shipping their packages into UPS hubs forever. The point that they decided to use UPSFreight this time does not suddenly mean that UPS is subcontracting.

Your contract language does not cover this contingency. Sleeper teams and layover drivers are supposed to move premium packages per the contract.

Much of the sleeper language is written as regional language and often bars these premium drivers from moving ground loads in an effort to protect the brown network drivers from losing work. Thus they also lose the rights to this type of movement. Thus we often send premium drivers empty to the next building they move loads from because they are not allowed to move ground loads to us.

You can not force UPS to suddenly start moving freight through its small package system when they do not have the expertise or capabilities to do so. Your contract language does not support your forcing ups into new service concepts that would require system modifications in some buildings. One building having the capability does not mean the network is prepared to do so. AV8 I would think we would be reluctant to do so at your building since we could be opening up a can of worms that could lead to small package teamsters trying to claim freight moves as their own.

So there is some grey area here that could possibly be negotiated to allow more brown drivers more opportunity. there is language in the contract that encourages ups and the teamsters to sit down and negotiate these types of issues. But the language does not support your claim that upsers have the right to make these freight moves.

 

[av8torntn]

Maybe I did not understand his point. I was thinking he was saying that some of the trailers were not full when they left the customers location and so they went to the UPSF terminal to put more freight on them and this was the reason UPS was sending the trailer by freight. I was just saying if this were true there is no real reason they could not come to UPS and have UPS packages loaded on the trailers and pulled down the road by UPS drivers to a UPS hub. I do not think that just because a customer puts packages on a skid that makes it freight. If that were true I already pick up nothing but freight.

None of this really matters anyhow. I see what is going on. I do not understand why it is happening. I had only asked if it were possible to get it changed. I see from the responses on here it will likely be very difficult. I have gotten replies from it is not sub contracting because the customer had to have come up with this idea ( even though it was three separate customers on my one little route in a weeks time) to it has somehow now magically transformed into freight because it is presorted to a hub destination and loaded onto a freight trailer or sometimes even accidentally on one of our trailers and pulled by a freight guy. Do not get me wrong this is more than my supervision would even say about it.

On a lighter note I was at a new pickup for me that replaced one I lost to freight and a dock worker had loaded a Fedex overnight skid onto the FedEx ground trailer and caused about 65 packages to be late. Normally I would have jumped in and let em know that if they used us they would not have to worry about it. I just smiled and kept my big mouth shut. I may be slow but the next job loss I cause may just be mine.

 

[av8torntn]

AV8 I would think we would be reluctant to do so at your building since we could be opening up a can of worms that could lead to small package teamsters trying to claim freight moves as their own.

I am not asking to move freight. I have no desire. I see plenty of opportunity for me and UPS in small package. I have no opposition to customers drop shipping loads to hubs. I do have a problem here because it looks to me that UPS gets to make the choice of who UPS is using to move loads and they are choosing to use someone besides UPS feeder drivers. UPS in my view is doing this through these supply chain guys. Look tie we have actually gained customers from our competitors here by thinking outside the normal boundaries. I do not think that is what is happening here. I am not completely sure what is happening but I will be honest it does not look good.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

What is happening is that UPS is using an underpaid (in comparison to us) and possibly underutilized (the freight sector of trucking is sagging as a whole) division of our company (UPSF) to move work (packages to individual consignees) that should be moved by the Feeder department.

If the contract language says they can do this, they can, and if it says it can't, they shouldn't.

This has nothing to do with the customer at all except they want the best service at the best price. We (or they) suggested zone skipping. They definitely didn't request a specific division of our company to do it. The customer couldn't care less.

This is strictly an apparent internal problem that the Union and Company need to resolve.