Management Union Representation

Discussion in 'UPS Discussions' started by TakeNoMore, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. TakeNoMore

    TakeNoMore New Member

    Grade 12-16's needs to look into union representation. Grade 18's and up are getting big perks while the 16's and below are losing more as time goes on.

    UPS wants to level the playing field with FedEx. How about leveling the UPS management playing field?

    Any thoughts?
  2. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    So how many grades are there?

  3. upssalesguy

    upssalesguy UPS Defender

    i think if you want to be in a union, you don't become management.

    and by management,do you mean anyone under full time supervisor?
  4. killamjl

    killamjl Member

    oh and what grade do you start wearing a suit :wink2:
  5. brownmonster

    brownmonster Man of Great Wisdom

    Call the APWA. They might want to go in a different direction.
  6. pretzel_man

    pretzel_man Well-Known Member

    Out of 400,000 UPS employees, grade 18's and up make up less than 1% of them. How much do you think those at the top 1% of grade in other companies make?

    Independent compensation analysis has shown that compared to other companies, Grade 18's and above are less compensated than their peers.

    I'm not saying that supervisors and managers don't work hard. They do.

    However, complaining about the compensation of 1% of the employees not level a playing field. Its better to work hard to get to those levels.

  7. MonavieLeaker

    MonavieLeaker Bringin Teh_Lulz

  8. beentheredonethat

    beentheredonethat Well-Known Member

    Things have changed a bit lately, but these are pretty general rules that are still valid.
    Supervisors are grades 11-14. 99% of on road supvs are grade 14's, staff supvs start at lower levels and after time, experience etc work there way up to 14.
    Managers are 15, 16. Virtually all mgr's in operations are 16. Most mgr's in staff are 16, but there are some that have no employee's that report to them are 15 usually in region or corporate
    Div Mgrs 17, 18. - Typical pkg div mgrs, hub div mgrs, fdr div mgrs and dist staff are grade 18. In region staff and corporate are some grade 17 jobs. Main difference is grade 18 get stock options, grade 17 usually don't.

    Grade 20 are Region staff folks and most dist operations mgrs. (There are some 19's and 21's but again, usually corp gigs).
    Grade 20's are where the bigger bonus's start.

    Grade 22 are district mgrs.

    Grade 26 are region mgrs.

    Unsure of mid grades or the grades higher then region mgr, which are basically the folks on the mgmt committee.
  9. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    Thanks for that!

    Pman, those 4000 are at the top. Do they ever listen to what comes from the great unwashed on the front lines? OR are they bound and determined to run the show with an iron fist from the top down?

    I know there are exceptions. You, tie, Brown suit and others that actually seem to "get it". But it also seems that some of the guys that call the shots have lost their marbles.

  10. pretzel_man

    pretzel_man Well-Known Member

    Hello Danny,

    Since you asked, I guess I will have to give an honest and unpopular answer.

    My belief is that absolutely, the majority of these division managers and above listen to and care about the opinions of the front line people.

    However, front line people are not the only voices that they must deal with. There are many other groups' input that must be balanced.

    For instance.... Marketing will constantly ask for changing the service territories and commit times in order to better compete. New products will get introduced that must be monitored to see that we do what we committed. Regulatory bodies will demand compliance to existing and new laws. Communities are looking for UPS support in the way of monitary donations or time. The list goes on and on including the voice of front line managers and employees.

    And then, of course there is the shareholder who wants to see their investment grow. Without that growth they will put their hard earned money elsewhere.

    Each division manager is held accountable to their P&L. Yes, they get incentive, but they have tremendous responsibility in trying to balance ALL the stakeholders in the business.

    I expect to get criticized for writing this, but this is the world that any business leader must deal with. There are many voices, all thinking that theirs should be most important.

    Danny, in a different post you talked about choosing a shipping company (UPS vs. FedEX). You and other businesses will make decisions in order to keep your costs in line. You could have chosen to pay for a higher level of service, but that would eat into your margins and without that you would have no business.

    UPS is in the same place. Decisions need to be made on what we can afford to do and remain competitive. Are all decisions good? No. Are all division managers deserving? No. Are all decisons good for everyone? No.

    Are the majority done for the right reasons? I think so.

  11. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND

    P man

    Thank you for the reply, It was the honest post I was expecting from you.

    But let me play devils advocate, something I seem good at.

    As a business owner, I chose FDX because not only the was the price a lot cheaper ($19 and change per box flat rate, boxes were each 33-35 pounds) but the service in the past has been as good as UPS's.

    Therefor, instead of paying three times that much for the same service, I opted for the same service at the lower cost.

    That allows me to do the following.

    The fish I shipped in cost me 5 dollars each, and there are 20 a box. So the total cost per fish is 6 dollars. Shipped in UPS the cost per fish would have been over 8 dollars a fish.

    That allows me to sell the fish around $10, instead of 12-13, so the customer catches a nice price break as well. The people in the area that sell this same type of fish are selling them in the 11-35 dollar range depending on if they are in a box store (the highest price) or family owned pet stores. So that allows me to be very competitive in the market place.

    I also use the airlines, where I can usually get same day pickup at the airport for about the same rate, 20-25 bucks a package, but the packages are usually larger and heavier. The ups rate on the last shipment, that cost 122.87 via delta, would have been over $600. That shipment had 4 fish, so the shipping cost about 30 bucks a fish, instead of 150 each. Through UPS, they would have been delivered the next day, instead of same day, and would have been handled many more times enroute. A win win for the fish as far as stress.

    Now, is this something popular to post on a UPS website? Probably not. Is it the cold hard truth, regardless of who's toes we step on? I think so. Its real life.

    Here they are asking to roll back 10:30 commits to 12 or later. Is that a better way to compete? Cutting back on the service level we supply our customers? I dont think so.

    New products when we have a hard time making service commits on what we have already? I know we need to grow and give new services that the customer needs and wants. That is normal business growth. But like I posted on another thread, what good is a delivery of my shipments to me at end of day instead of before 12. If it gets here at end of day, its like getting it the next day, for practical purposes. I cant do a thing with a package that rolls in after 4. So yes, you lived up to the letter of the commit time, but as a practical matter to my business, you didnt. And as that trend continues, that makes me have to consider alternative means to get my shipments.

    I think that might be one of the most sinister issues we have. In a time of double digit returns with many companies, UPS is trying hard to give investors reason to take a serious look at us. I dont think that the emphasis was on bottom line at any cost, before we went public. Yes, we were very focused on making a good profit, but we did it by supplying a service to the customer. When we no longer provide that best service, then we lose the customer base, and then revenue.

    I know the focus of sales guy is on the super shipper, but its the little guy that made UPS. The ones like myself that gets and sends a steady supply boxes every day.

    And it seems that those are the very customers that we are first in line to screw when it comes to revamping routes.

    Maybe so, for cost cutting. But I really believe that if the company has the guts to try to expand dramatically, instead of consolidating, right now would be the time. Given the right leadership and vision, I really believe that we could increase our market share by 10-20% world wide be not retreating to a comfort zone, but moving boldly forward. And smack down Fedex like DHL.

  12. TakeNoMore

    TakeNoMore New Member

    Let me clarify a few things.

    I meant "level the management playing filed" within UPS, not as compared to FedEx or any other company. I believe all of UPS's management should be compensated fairly for their efforts and their successes. I find it odd that the lower levels of management are taking wage (overall pay and benefit) reductions, while higher levels are getting large increases.

    I am not suggesting that management needs guidance or representation as it relates to working conditions, hours of work, transfers, pressure, brow beatings or any of the other normal conditions experienced as a management employee with UPS. I agree that this is what management signed up for when they went into management.

    The concern and intent of my original post was to address the ongoing systematic reduction of wages for the lower levels of management. Admins, drivers, loaders, and higher management are not being subjected to reductions in wages. Low and mid level managers are.

    Here are some examples:

    Flex Benefits - Originally introduced as a plan to improve health benefits. Plan was good first year. Level of coverge has decreased every year since inception. Cost to management employee has increased each year since inception. To keep out of pocket premium costs under $600 per month, dental, vision have to be dropped and medical has to be reduced to the weakest plan available. More reductions announced this week. Long term disability was paid for by the company. Since the inception of Flex there is no long term disability unless it is purchased by the management employee. Prescription plan has been reduced also.

    Elimination of 401K match of 3% - This equates to a 3% reduction in wages. Union folks should understand that the contribution to the UPS retirement plan is less than 50% of that of an hourly employee. Currently union contribution rates are in the $6-7 per hour range. Management is much less. The 3% match helped make up the disparity, but still fell short of the hourly rate. Management old-timers had a good retirement plan. The current management plan is weak.

    No wage increase in 2009 - No wage increase in an economy with an inflation rate of 2.5% equates to a reduction of real wages of 2.5%

    MIP - Formula was changed. Old formula dedicated 15% of after tax profits to MIP participants based on salary. Fair to all MIP participants. New plan uses an arbitrary reduced formula. Expect the MIP to be very low this year, even though the company is making substantial profits. Under the old plan MIP would have been significantly higher each year since the plan was changed. In addition to reducing the amount dedicated to MIP the award is now restricted, so it not actually fully received till five years after the date of award. Under the old plan the full amount was in the bank shortly after the award date.

    Stock options - Old plan rewarded 18s and up when the stock price grew. When stock price stopped growing a new plan was introduced to better compensate the 18s and up. They receive a grant of restricted stock now. 17s and below receive nothing.

    New compensation plan for the board introduced this year. Substantial bonus increases.

    When you add it all up, low and mid level management has taken a big pay cut while higher levels are getting substantial increases.

    401k - 3%
    No raise - 2.5%
    Reduced benefits - appox 5%
    Reduction of MIP - approx 5-10%
    MIP awarded as RSU approx 10%
  13. upssalesguy

    upssalesguy UPS Defender

    danny, UPS will match that rate if you provide Fedex bills or documentation to prove the rate. we have a different cost structure than FedEx and we need to provide that documentation to pricing so we can understand where we need to me more price competative. let me know and I can send out a UPS Account Executive to help get that fish on the right color truck.

    fedex tends to offer association discounts we cannot compete with, but in this case, I can help you. PM me if you want to serisously talk.

    edit: assuming you pay the bill. if you get that rate from your supplier, you might be SOL. and please. stop. saying. UPS. doesnt. care. about. the. small. shipper. - that couldnt be further from the truth. you might be suprised if you stop treating everone not in browns like the enemy.
  14. dannyboy

    dannyboy From the promised LAND


    What was the ratio of hourly to management say in 1980 to now? When you have a pie, and that pie gets cut into too many pieces, all you might get is a sniff.

    Who else do you think pays the bill? But it was the supplier that paid FedEx. So that means SOL

    I never said small shipper, I said small businesses. Which they dont.

    Why would they reloop a system where main street USA would be the core from which all other routes are set up. That means that the majority of the routes change regularly, and the majority of the changes are in business areas. That means that a large percentage of the business stops get shuffled here and there, which then changes delivery times. And as long as they get delivered the same day, management could care less, they made the guaranteed delivery. But what good does a delivery make if it gets delivered 15 minutes before close time?

    Can I get that package ready to go back out? Can I call the customer and tell them their package is in for pick up? Can I get the crew out doing installs to come by the shop and install it? It might as well not even come till the next day, but yet you are proud you made "service". As far as my business goes, you failed.

    Thats what happens when pencil pushers take over a service company. They make decisions that affects the customers, without considering any of the results, Including losing customer base.

  15. upssalesguy

    upssalesguy UPS Defender

    dude, i cant help a customer that doesnt want to be helped. yes, we do help small companies and some even get better rates then the big ones. get off your high horse and join reality.

    the cost of transportation is obviously part of your cost of goods sold as part of an arrangement with your supplier. I can get a sales rep out to the supplier to see if there is opportuntity for UPS. you sound like you are happy with fedex, and looking to bash ups for this conflicted feeleing you have, so more power to you as a business owner. have you ever seriously tried to talk to ups about your delviery issues? i am starting to doubt it, but i could be wrong. wouldnt be the first time.

    good luck out there. i really have no idea why you post here other than to bring a solid wave of negativity. you are the biggest pessimist I have wasted time talking to on a message board.
  16. Coldworld

    Coldworld Well-Known Member

    are you saying that ups will match ANY shipping prices from Any customer regardless of size? Please give more detail of this.
  17. upssalesguy

    upssalesguy UPS Defender

    if it business we need in a lane we have low volume, absolutly.

    we need the competitve documentation from the customer. If we have that documentation, i have gotten the rate i need 99% of the time. i would never say "any" because my post would be copied and pasted for years to come.

    now, you have to appreciate, sometimes there is a small, strategic location of a fedex strategic account (satellite office of a huge multinational corporation) that fedex has allowed to be part of a larger national contract that we cannot compete with those rates.
  18. brownmonster

    brownmonster Man of Great Wisdom

    You are not listening. Loosen your tie. He wouldn't have a problem with the cost if he got the service that goes with it. You seem to be ignoring the fact, much like everyone in Mgmnt, that a delivery made at 4:45PM is no better than having it delivered the next day. The problem of inconsistent delivery times is our number one failure as a service company. Only the drivers care. Would it be so hard to relloop areas based on core business areas and leave those core areas on the same truck, moving residentials around in the PM to adjust the dispatch. You know, like it used to be done when those with a clue ran this company.
  19. dilligaf

    dilligaf IN VINO VERITAS

    This and the fact that his driver is dr'ing pkgs which is against policy.
  20. upssalesguy

    upssalesguy UPS Defender

    bro,i appreciate the bias towards me, but please note...there is not one customer that has contacted me with a delivery issue that has not been fixed within 24 hours. center managers are scared of BD because they know they must do what we require to win/save a customer.

    i dont care about his pricing, i care that he has a delivery issue and has done nothing to try to correct it but badmouth management on browncafe! I can help if given the chance.