My timecard already says that I'm getting paid today for a "Legal Holiday", however, we are expected to come in today.

[zubenelgenubi]

I am talking about our contract which does not say “no work on holidays”. And the examples of “other people’s situations” you say are irrelevant are also mostly union jobs… the airline jobs I had were all union jobs and all required that someone work on holidays. I spoke of being in the hospital on purpose, our Local represents many medical workers and believe me they work holidays.

I don't know how else to say it. Holiday means no work. You don't have to qualify the term to add "no work". You do have to qualify it if you intend to make a concession so that work is allowed on a holiday.

It's likely that airline and hospital contracts always had those carve outs, due to the nature of the industry. Ours did not start there. Working holidays has been a progressive concession that I believe should be rolled back. The nature of our industry does not demand that we work holidays, the only reason for the concessions is to increase company profit. Hence, other people's situations our irrelevant to ours.

How many of your local officials work holidays?

 

[AKCoverMan]

Holiday means no work

My brother, you keep saying this, but I ask you why does every Union contract that I’ve worked undr, or read, specifically talk about rates of pay for working on holidays?

i am not trying to convince you that working on a holiday is a great thing. That’s why the contract makes em pay more!

But the contract is being followed, and the union didn’t “cave” on anything. We don’t as a union get to tell them when they can and can’t operate but we can tell them how much more it will cost. UPS seems to believe it’s worth the poop ton of money they dish out on Black Friday and New Years Eve.

To be honest I’d much rather we were just air only on Black Fridsy…seemed like most years most of the people who wanted that day off could get it and most of the people who wanted the fat working holiday pay could get that too. But I see the company’s business reason of wanting to keep as far ahead of game as possible during peak and at the end of the day so long as there is premium pay for working, and in context of all the other unionized workforces who’s employers operate on holidays it just doesn’t seem like the deal breaker issue On the contract.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I don't know how else to say it. Holiday means no work.

Umm.... might want to read your supplement.


Central Region

Section 4

Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, regular seniority employees required to work on any of the above named holidays shall receive double his/her regular hourly rate for all hours worked with a guarantee of eight (8) hours for full-time employees and four (4) hours for part-time employees. Also, no employee shall be re- quired to work on Labor Day unless authorized by the local union.

https://teamster.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ups18centralregionsupp.pdf

It's been in the contract for 40 years ? This is nothing new. Certainly not some sort of recent concession.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Umm.... might want to read your supplement.


Central Region

Section 4

Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, regular seniority employees required to work on any of the above named holidays shall receive double his/her regular hourly rate for all hours worked with a guarantee of eight (8) hours for full-time employees and four (4) hours for part-time employees. Also, no employee shall be re- quired to work on Labor Day unless authorized by the local union.

https://teamster.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ups18centralregionsupp.pdf

It's been in the contract for 40 years ? This is nothing new. Certainly not some sort of recent concession.

My brother, you keep saying this, but I ask you why does every Union contract that I’ve worked undr, or read, specifically talk about rates of pay for working on holidays?

i am not trying to convince you that working on a holiday is a great thing. That’s why the contract makes em pay more!

But the contract is being followed, and the union didn’t “cave” on anything. We don’t as a union get to tell them when they can and can’t operate but we can tell them how much more it will cost. UPS seems to believe it’s worth the poop ton of money they dish out on Black Friday and New Years Eve.

To be honest I’d much rather we were just air only on Black Fridsy…seemed like most years most of the people who wanted that day off could get it and most of the people who wanted the fat working holiday pay could get that too. But I see the company’s business reason of wanting to keep as far ahead of game as possible during peak and at the end of the day so long as there is premium pay for working, and in context of all the other unionized workforces who’s employers operate on holidays it just doesn’t seem like the deal breaker issue On the contract.

I honestly don't understand what you guys aren't understanding. Holiday means no work. The extra language that lays out under what conditions the union agrees to work on a holiday is proof of the meaning of the word holiday. Without that language, it would be understood that the agreed upon holidays would be days off. The word holiday doesn't need extra words added to it so that it means no work. It's built into the definition of the word. The holiday pay is even an extra that has to be added in, because the word holiday does not necessarily mean you get paid on the day you don't work.

When the union agreed to working holidays, or other industries working holidays, has zero bearing on the fact that holiday means no work.

It's astounding how hard people will argue that a word doesn't mean what it very clearly means.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

UPS is good at those ambiguous terms.

How about a working suspension or working termination?

Which article?

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

Umm.... might want to read your supplement.


Central Region

Section 4

Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, regular seniority employees required to work on any of the above named holidays shall receive double his/her regular hourly rate for all hours worked with a guarantee of eight (8) hours for full-time employees and four (4) hours for part-time employees. Also, no employee shall be re- quired to work on Labor Day unless authorized by the local union.

https://teamster.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ups18centralregionsupp.pdf

It's been in the contract for 40 years ? This is nothing new. Certainly not some sort of recent concession.

Umm.... might want to read your supplement.


Central Region

Section 4

Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, regular seniority employees required to work on any of the above named holidays shall receive double his/her regular hourly rate for all hours worked with a guarantee of eight (8) hours for full-time employees and four (4) hours for part-time employees. Also, no employee shall be re- quired to work on Labor Day unless authorized by the local union.

https://teamster.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ups18centralregionsupp.pdf

It's been in the contract for 40 years ? This is nothing new. Certainly not some sort of recent concession.

But- you will agree that is a concession? I'm sure the "elected leaders" are at work those days?

 

[Trucker Clock]

Which article?

I said it was a UPS term, and seems to be widely used.

so when I got terminated the union business agent was there representing me he mentioned to me that I never file any grievance on my working termination , to tell u the Truth I know that year or month I did file lots of grievances for all the wright ups the supervisor had giving me , I couldn't argue that I did on my working termination cause I had no proofs so UPS then was able to terminate me .

He was prob put on a "working termination".

If you look in the western region supplement our workweek is 5 consecutive days does not specify requirements to work more than a m-friend or t-s schedule. I dealt with this same issue until our ba stepped up and told us not show outside of our regular schedule workweek. Dozens of people were getting working termination letters but not a single thing happened. All the drivers still have jobs. You do need to call in and let them know you will be unavailable to work that day. No details just that you are unavailable end of story.

The pandemic here was bad but it was only bad for five days, Saturday routes we’re still low enough to be covered by 22.4’s but this six day mess has really made a lot of people angry. Between two centers there’s a average of 70 -80 drivers calling out every Saturday. Drivers with 10 warning letters, working terminations but nothing comes of it. There is no reason to not make this work. My concern is what will the economy be like when negotiations begin.

Update: So I talked to my BA once again and he is telling me I was on a working termination and that is why they were allowed to walk me out. He also mentioned that I did not file a grievance on one of my NC/NS, and if I was to be represented based on my history they don't think they would be able to help me. So my only question is how were they allowed to proceed with termination without serving me a 5 day? I had no idea I was even on a working termination.

Even though I lost my job, I learned a lot through this experience. Even if someone lets you get away with something doesn't make it ok and it has me asking myself, why didn't I just show up to work?

That’s the way it is here.

A guy got a letter reflecting effective immediately and left. Company claimed it was a working termination, with the union not arguing differently.

Later, a guy got a working termination discharge and the letter didn’t say effective immediately.

The one in question was a gross insubordination discharge, which I thought was universally accepted cardinal infraction. Apparently I was mistaken in thinking that

I completely agree. My question would be, is gross insubordination considered a cardinal infraction?

Also, would the language on the letter itself, such as effective immediately, clearly indicate it was not a working termination?

If management’s mouths are moving, they’re lying. Unfortunately, they have a right contractually to lie and force people to go through the process.

Refused a direct order. I declined because it’s my belief it’s a safety issue, but discharged nonetheless. It’s not a cardinal infraction in the contract, so how can it not be working termination?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

I said it was a UPS term, and seems to be widely used.

Termination: another term that means no work.

 

[Trucker Clock]

Termination: another term that means no work.

Yes it does. But a working termination means that your employment will end at a future date, while you continue to work. A working termination is an actual business phrase.

Just like Holiday. There are many definitions of Holiday. You take the one that suits your needs. Why do you then not complain that you are forced to work on other Holidays. Columbus Day, Presidents Day, MLK Jr Day, etc, if Holiday means no work.

Here's another definition of Holiday, which is probably closer to reality that your definition. It does not say all businesses, or no work whatsoever. Maybe we are not an ordinary business. Most employers do not honor all Government observed Holidays either. Why not? If Holiday means no one works?

holiday
[ hol-i-dey ]

noun

a day fixed by law or custom on which ordinary business is suspended in commemoration of some event or in honor of some person.

 

[GrievanceKing]

New Year's Eve

Not here. "You are air support. You don't get double time" - our business agent

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Yes it does. But a working termination means that your employment will end at a future date, while you continue to work. A working termination is an actual business phrase.

Working termination is a made up phrase that makes it sound like the company is doing something legitimate. If you are such a problem to the company that they need to terminate you, then they shouldn't keep you working. It's amazing that I have to explain this. It's like malicious compliance, it allows them to discipline you for following orders and not following orders. No reasonable person finds that acceptable.

Just like Holiday. There are many definitions of Holiday. You take the one that suits your needs.

Only one that matters within the employer/employee relationship context. It's not the one that suits me, it's the one that applies to the situation. Why do I have to explain this? Why would you widen the context of a conversation to try to disprove a point? It just makes you look like you aren't following along, and it's discourteous to make other people get you up to speed.

Why do you then not complain that you are forced to work on other Holidays. Columbus Day, Presidents Day, MLK Jr Day, etc, if Holiday means no work.

I don't know that all of those are negotiated holidays within the context of our contract. But I don't like working the ones that are. We used to observe holidays that fell on weekends, not anymore, just extra pay. I don't like that either.

Here's another definition of Holiday, which is probably closer to reality that your definition. It does not say all businesses, or no work whatsoever. Maybe we are not an ordinary business. Most employers do not honor all Government observed Holidays either. Why not? If Holiday means no one works?

holiday
[ hol-i-dey ]

noun

a day fixed by law or custom on which ordinary business is suspended in commemoration of some event or in honor of some person.

In what fantasy world would package delivery not be considered ordinary business? Lol. That definition supports my point. Why are you even arguing?

 

[Drink Craft Beer]

I’ll rip off your eyebrows

And piss down your nostrils

 

[Trucker Clock]

Why are you even arguing?

Who’s arguing?

I am just stating my opinion of the facts, which seems to be different than yours. I‘m OK with a difference of opinion. Are you?

I’m OK with someone else’s opinion being different than mine. Are you?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Who’s arguing?

I am just stating my opinion of the facts, which seems to be different than yours. I‘m OK with a difference of opinion. Are you?

I’m OK with someone else’s opinion being different than mine. Are you?

Sure, I'm fine with opinions. But I'm not going to get into an argument over the definition of argue. I have standards.

 

[Trucker Clock]

But I'm not going to get into an argument over the definition of argue.

Neither am I and I am not arguing. I never got heated or angry. Just stated facts.

ar·gue
/ˈärɡyo͞o/


exchange or express diverging or opposite views, typically in a heated or angry way.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Neither am I and I am not arguing. I never got heated or angry. Just stated facts.

ar·gue
/ˈärɡyo͞o/


exchange or express diverging or opposite views, typically in a heated or angry way.

Congratulations. Typically doesn't mean always. Reading is fundamental.

 

[Trucker Clock]

Congratulations

Thanks. Did I win?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Thanks. Did I win?

Sorry, first three vocab lessons are free. Any further lessons will be at full rate.

 

[Trucker Clock]

Sorry, first three vocab lessons are free. Any further lessons will be at full rate.

You’re no fun.