Slip Slidin' Away

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by susiedriver, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

    Welcome to Fascism people. Ho, Ho, Ho, Mother Superior (to paraphrase the MC5).

    What is Fascism? Do _YOU_ support it???

    Should Fascism be given "equal time" in America's media?

    Are you an American, or do you support Fascism?

    Do you know what Fascism is?


    Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

    Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

    Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

    Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in Fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of need. The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

    Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

    The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

    Supremacy of the Military

    Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

    Rampant Sexism

    The governments of Fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under Fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

    Controlled Mass Media

    Sometimes the media are directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media are indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

    Obsession with National Security

    Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. Fascists spy on the civilian populace.

    Religion and Government are Intertwined

    Governments in Fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

    Corporate Power is Protected

    The industrial and business aristocracy of a Fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

    Labor Power is Suppressed

    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

    Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

    Obsession with Crime and Punishment

    Under Fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in Fascist nations

    Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in Fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

    Fraudulent Elections

    Sometimes elections in Fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
  2. tieguy

    tieguy Banned


    Here's another link on the subject some definitions are similar. One defintion I did not see in your link which is in this one is:

    . Anticonservatism
    Fascist movements usually try to retain some supposedly healthy parts of the nation's existing political and social life, but they place more emphasis on creating a new society. In this way fascism is directly opposed to conservatismthe idea that it is best to avoid dramatic social and political change. Instead, fascist movements set out to create a new type of total culture in which values, politics, art, social norms, and economic activity are all part of a single organic national community. In Nazi Germany, for example, the fascist government in the 1930s tried to create a new Volksgemeinschaft (people's community) built around a concept of racial purity. A popular culture of Nazi books, movies, and artwork that celebrated the ideal of the so-called new man and new woman supported this effort. With this idealized people's community in mind, the government created new institutions and policies (partly as propaganda) to build popular support. But the changes were also an attempt to transform German society in order to overcome perceived sources of national weakness. In the same way, in Italy under Mussolini the government built new stadiums and held large sporting events, sponsored filmmakers, and financed the construction of huge buildings as monuments to fascist ideas. Many scholars therefore conclude that fascist movements in Germany and Italy were more than just reactionary political movements. These scholars argue that these fascist movements also represented attempts to create revolutionary new modern states.
  3. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    I'm breaking this up into several parts since you asked me to keep it succinct to improve your understanding of the material.

    In viewing the above post I will assume your intent was not to educate us on a definition of facism but point out similarities between this defintion and a country in todays world.

    How do you feel about facism? Is it a system worth eradicating?

    Question two do you feel its worth using the military to eradicate?

    example: Should hitler have been eradicated militarily before he was strong enough to threaten the world?
  4. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

  5. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

  6. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

  7. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    After rereading the resonse I now see you thought I was saying my link was somehow part of your original post. Not my intent. I found it interesting in the link I attached that anti conservatism was listed as a component of facism. Almost makes the democratic part facist eh susan?:biggrin:
  8. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

    I'm going to assume that by 'democratic' you really mean 'Democrat'. If that is the case, I would have to say no; that would be quite the stretch. On one hand you call those on the Left 'pinko', by which I would assume you mean 'Communist', on the other you call us 'Facist'. You can't demonize the Left by having us be both [wiki]Facist[/wiki] and [wiki]Communist[/wiki].
  9. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

    The thing about facism is that one doesn't realize that one's country has become Facist until it's too late.
    I think the likihood of the military removing the present day administration unlikely.
    I don't believe in pre-emptive war, nor was it the policy of the United States until recently.
  10. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    So are you saying that Hitler should not have been preemptively removed? You believe that we should therefore have allowed Hitler to continue on course taking action that resulted in world war II taking place and resulting in the catostrophic results of WWII with no intervention prior?
  11. tieguy

    tieguy Banned


    How do you feel about Roger D. Griffin ( B.A., Ph.D. Professor, Department of History, Oxford Brookes University. Author of International Fascism: Theories, Causes, and the New Consensus, The Nature of Fascism, and other books.) listing anti conservatism as a component of facism? Certainly Roger would be qualified to speak on the subject of facism? If there is indeed a movement towards anti-conservatism as a part of a movement towards facism then it would seem that facism cannot necessarily sneak up on you as you claim in your prior post?
  12. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

    I believe that we did not enter WWII until the Japanese attacked on Dec 7, 1941. Germany declared war on the US on Dec 11, 1941. This was probably the biggest blunder made by Hitler, as it did not cause the Japanese to launch an Eastern offensive against Russia, as he had hoped; but caused the US to help Britain on the Western Front in Europe.
  13. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

    I believe that Fascism is perhaps more anti-liberal than anti-conservative. In Germany the National Socialists allied with conservative groups when it benefited them, but never for too long. The Nazis were pretty much anti-everyone but them, wouldn't you agree?
  14. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Susan did you really read the material provided by this world reknown expert on facism?I don't really think the intent was to paint any particular political leaning. It appears the intent was to highlight a shift to a completely new type of society based on facism. Resisting such a shift would be holding to a conservative ideal while making the shift willingly would support the anti conservative title highlighted. It would appear that as such it would not be likely that you could completely make the switch to this new society without anyone realizing the transformation was taking place. The general populace would have to be motivated to make such a switch. In germanys case the switch to facism was preceeded by extremely severe economic conditions that made the populace receptive to such a change. Without those conditions the switch could not be made. Thus while your biased source attempts to paint conditions ripe for facism in fact as this learned world reknown expert on facism highlights there are in fact many components to developing a facist society that have not come close to being realized. Susan I appreciate your attempt to educate us on liberal philosophies but in this case as our world reknown expert on facism points out your approach is in fact alarmist in nature and ill thought. To say the sky is falling without providing hard proof may be temporarily entertaining but otherwise a wasted exercise in alarmism.
  15. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member


    Yes, I did read your link, did you? In particular the section where he talks about fascism in America. I find the similarities quite striking, especially when compared to today's neo-conservative led cabal in Washington.

    I'll be back next week. We are right in the middle of our Festivus Celebration.
  16. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Indeed it appears you think you read the link but again could you highlight the big societal shift towards facism. Could you define the motivating influence in this societal shift towards facism? Could you highlight the issues that would motivate the average citizen to support an overthrow of democracy in favor of facism?

    It appears my question is causing you some difficulties? My question is asking for specifics not the generalities that your quoted link lists. I hope my grammar and spelling are pleasing to you so that you may actually be able to focus on the questions I am asking. :lol:

    Will you be engaging in liberal decadence in this festivus celebration?
  17. susiedriver

    susiedriver New Member

    It's spelled FASCISM, boy genius.:lol::lol::lol:
  18. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Again you dodge the question at all costs because you have nothing to dispute the point. You found some like minded liberal pinko fanatic that took liberties with the definition of facism to make a stretch of a case that our country was shifting towards facism. Debunked by definition. No dispute from you other than to try to attack my spelling to avoid answering my question. Checkmate.
  19. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    You know in all this debate there seems to me that the individual person is completely lost in all this positioning of which form of political belief holds the higher ground. We all tend to get caught up and overlook that. In the 20th century to present the standard rule of measure of governmental systems has been in the form of a horse shoe with the extreme ends being communism on one side (left wing) and fascism on the other extreme (right wing) with other systems finding place elsewhere on the horseshoe along the arc. However, both extremes share the same end result in that the individual person and their rights are suppressed. Now the individual can prosper in either extreme when they join the ruling party and carry the party line but all that comes to naught if and when that individual thinks for themselves and expresses or acts out contary to the party will. In either system the rule is autocratic and tends to be aristocratic for the few priviledged to be in the ruling elite. Both systems also tend to elevate leaders of flawed character or skills to run things which in turn make matters worse and these individuals tend to use force and tyranny to cover up their own shortcoming as the people see them and become dissenchanted with their leadership. In order to protect the position a firm hand of control must be maintained at all times or totalitarian rule will be lost.

    IMO, both right wing (republican) if you will and left wing (democratic) if you will are autocratic, totalitarian forces both fighting for the same thing to control. The American individual. It has been said and with some degree of truth that the democrats want to control the individual economically and the republican wants to control the individual morally. I'll agree it's an over simplistic explaination but there is some element of truth to it in that the republicans one could say want to control the bedroom and the democrats want to control the paycheck. Truth is those rolles could be reversed, it's just the level of degree that might be somewhat different. Also we tend to become absorbed in the political speak of elections and both sides play wordspeak to their base in order to keep them motivated. Whether the issue be codifying morality or guns (right to or control of) or less taxes/more taxes or creation/maintenance or elimination of federal programs designed to support those without or to shift wealth from one point to another, for the most part, very little really changes in the end. Gov't continues to grow and in fact is becoming less and less effective by the day. Most politicians know you run on the extremes to excite your voting base but you govern pretty much from the middle. OK2BC commented the other week on a post I made about GW coming clean on the WMD issue that GW was only doing this because he's in election mode. I believe some poo-pood this in the thought that GW can't run for office any more which is correct. However I do believe the election mode OK was speaking of was the coming 2006' Congressional elections and IMO OK's spot on with that observation.

    Effective and good leadership doesn't need to be in election mode as the people will see the natural leadership qualities and just follow it. As to conservative or anti-conservative being more fascist than the other I think one needs to sit down and ask a very important question about both sides to determine this. That question is, would an individual be free to make the choice of living their life as they see fit and not partake of the imposed programs or does the gov't of either make the decision that no matter what the situation or circumstances you will be forced by law even to the extent of jail or extreme physical force be made to take part? IMO, that is where neither sides shows any difference at all and therefore are equal in degree of being totalitarian.

    One might say in response that society needs order and structure and I'm not contending otherwise. What I am challenging is the level and amount of control and order you might want to impose. As each day passes gov't involves itself more and more in our lives making decisions for us of what we can and can't do. Where does it stop? What is the line in the sand that they can not cross? Is it? "you will work here or else!" Is it? "you will live here or else!" Some would suggest with emient domain abuse we have a "you won't live there" approach to gov't. Where is the line in the sand?

    To conclude, IMHO this is what we all have to ask oursleves. A great man once said, "do unto others as we would have them do unto us." Have any of us ever sat back and put ourselves in the others shoes and then make the political and cultural demands we so strongly believe in? The society I'd like to see is where people of all types of beliefs are able to gather themselves together, in groups if they wish, and do for themselves as they see fit in whatever form that may take as long as the individual is free to join or free to leave at any time. I believe our founding fathers attempted to give us that very thing but like the Israelites in the time of Samual, "tell God we demand a King like those around us." We've got our King and it's becoming more and more like Nero every day that passes. Sadly we are becoming the very empire we revolted against 230 years ago.

    Hope everyone had a great holiday and take care.
  20. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    In susans world this country is driftng towards facism. This point she tried to make. In the real world however this cannot happen as long as we have the seperation of powers and elections. This was another ill thought out thread by Susan which she then runs from defending when challenged.