The Black Market Is Becoming The Dominate Marketplace

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
I'll back it up even to the '70's when households began having two incomes. What happened? Labor got cheaper. Who benefitted? Corporations again to the point where two income families are nearly a necessity.

You don't see deregulation or you don't see any completely unregulated industry? Ask a truck driver what happened after the trucking industry was deregulated.

Your wagon wheel analogy is fine as far as it goes. No, don't subsidize it, but don't leave the workers hanging either. Yes, government has a responsibility to it's citizens, both individual and corporate.

Once again it is a fallacy to claim labor is cheaper. I explained why twice in very basic terms.

I can't see how trucking isn't regulated by government. It's possible you live in a different country. In my country everything in trucking is regulated from who can drive, how you drive, how you load a trailer, how long, fast and what you can drive, how the fuel is made, how the truck and trailer are made, how you pay your employees and on, and on. There are literally thousands of regulations that deal with trucking.

In your world people that dealt with wagon wheels could not seek employment in another industry Particularly if they were over 43.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
The children with a better education.

Here's a reality check. There will never be a Libertarian president, so eliminating the DOE is a hypothetical "solution". When Rand eventually runs for President he will be just as marginal as his father has been.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Here's a reality check. There will never be a Libertarian president, so eliminating the DOE is a hypothetical "solution". When Rand eventually runs for President he will be just as marginal as his father has been.

Rand is not monolithic in his beliefs as his Dad is ... he does not insist or talk in absolutes.
Only time will tell but if the US slides into a Western European Socialist government, Libertarian values will have no place in the mainstream National government.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Av8,

Labor is not cheaper? When John Deere went to a two tiered pay structure, they did not begin to employ a cheaper work force? When UPS negotiated 22.3 positions, they did not exploit a cheaper labor market?

I'm actually sympathetic to your views in that I believe serious change is needed. But a word of advice: there are alot of 40 and 50 year old people out of work and frankly your glib attitude of go back to work and get a different job is insulting to the magnitude of that difficulty. You have your work cut out for you in advocating for increased deregulation.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Av8,

Labor is not cheaper? When John Deere went to a two tiered pay structure, they did not begin to employ a cheaper work force? When UPS negotiated 22.3 positions, they did not exploit a cheaper labor market?

I'm actually sympathetic to your views in that I believe serious change is needed. But a word of advice: there are alot of 40 and 50 year old people out of work and frankly your glib attitude of go back to work and get a different job is insulting to the magnitude of that difficulty. You have your work cut out for you in advocating for increased deregulation.

All you have to do is "try harder". All of those 40-50 year-olds looking for work just need to get motivated and change careers. Never mind that it's expensive, and completely unrealistic for many. All they have to do is conform to the dictates of the free market. Simple. Another non-solution form the Libertarians, but it looks good on paper or when you're out there stumping to Tea Partiers.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Once again it is a fallacy to claim labor is cheaper. I explained why twice in very basic terms.

I can't see how trucking isn't regulated by government. It's possible you live in a different country. In my country everything in trucking is regulated from who can drive, how you drive, how you load a trailer, how long, fast and what you can drive, how the fuel is made, how the truck and trailer are made, how you pay your employees and on, and on. There are literally thousands of regulations that deal with trucking.

In your world people that dealt with wagon wheels could not seek employment in another industry Particularly if they were over 43.
My goodness. How old are you? Before deregulation there were literally hundreds more trucking companies. In fact, the deregulation of the early 80's did not empower the individual, it centralized the industry in fewer, larger companies.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Av8,

Labor is not cheaper? When John Deere went to a two tiered pay structure, they did not begin to employ a cheaper work force? When UPS negotiated 22.3 positions, they did not exploit a cheaper labor market?

I'm actually sympathetic to your views in that I believe serious change is needed. But a word of advice: there are alot of 40 and 50 year old people out of work and frankly your glib attitude of go back to work and get a different job is insulting to the magnitude of that difficulty. You have your work cut out for you in advocating for increased deregulation.

Are you actually claiming that with the UPS article 22.3 jobs that when UPS paid 8.50 an hour to a part time worker that is actually more than when they pay(and I do not have my contract book with me) 23$ an hour to the new full time worker? That is a very difficult position for me to understand.


John Deere brings tractors to the market. Tractors allow people to become more productive on farms. More productive farms bring food at a lower price to the poor. Do you want to starve poor people? I'm just following your logic here. Fewer farmers allow more people to work in the health care field. Do you not want the poor to have health care? Trying to follow you logic and work through your glib attitude.

I'd like you to point to the time that you think that I claimed success was easy. My view is actually the opposite and as I have stated governmental interference makes it even more difficult. You cannot always be successful doing what you want, sometimes it takes doing what markets demand to become successful but in any case you can become successful in any field if you find a way to do what others are already doing more efficiently or better. When I was a child I wanted to walk on the moon and I never did. At some point I had to adapt and change my career path. My point is that if you cannot make the wages you desire by taping up damaged boxes in the hub it should motivate you to gain some other skill and seek employment at a higher wage or possible find a more efficient way to tape boxes and market that to the consumers that need boxes taped.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
My goodness. How old are you? Before deregulation there were literally hundreds more trucking companies. In fact, the deregulation of the early 80's did not empower the individual, it centralized the industry in fewer, larger companies.

Yes. How many jobs were killed-off or made non-union with deregulation? Libertarians would say it's the free market just doing it's job. Many very large trucking companies and airlines disappeared very quickly. The newly formed companies were generally non-union, with much lower pay and benefits.

Here's another question. If you are 40 or 50, what industry do you re-train for, and how do you pay for it, especially since you just lost your job? Libertarians wouldn't want to subsidize re-training, so how do you become a programmer, or systems analyst when you have a mortgage and a family to support?

Most Libertarians are in secure careers where they don't have to worry about their jobs. It's fine to speculate about the other guy and just mouth platitudes about entrepreneurship, hard work, and self-reliance. Unfortunately, the real world doesn't function on platitudes and hype.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
My goodness. How old are you? Before deregulation there were literally hundreds more trucking companies. In fact, the deregulation of the early 80's did not empower the individual, it centralized the industry in fewer, larger companies.

My goodness. I am actually about the same age as you. That being said it is extremely difficult to actually believe that you think there are no regulations that deal with the trucking industry so your cause for the false deregulation claim lie elsewhere.

I actually drive a truck and I am guessing there is no possible way that you do. Here are just a few things that are regulated in the trucking industry and by no means should be considered a complete list.

hours worked, materials transported, fuel used, weight of load, size of load, type of tires, type of trailer, lighting on trailer, braking on trailer, braking on truck, type of windshield, type of seatbelt, fire extinguisher, orange triangles, reflective tape placement, fuel tax, fuel tax sticker placement, fuel tank, fuel tank cap, windshield wiper, load height, retirement tax, income tax, health care tax, local taxes, state taxes on employment, vehicle and trailers, taxes on loads, disposal of tires, disposal of oil, and I could go on for hours

Regulations change often in the trucking but that does not mean there has been a deregulation or removal of all trucking regulations.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Yes. How many jobs were killed-off or made non-union with deregulation? Libertarians would say it's the free market just doing it's job.

The trucking industry has not been deregulated and there is no free market there. It is actually very heavily regulated.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
The trucking industry has not been deregulated and there is no free market there. It is actually very heavily regulated.

Trucking and the airlines were both deregulated during the 80's. There is a big difference between safety regulations that monitor driver qualifications, hazmat etc, and rates. Trucking rates and airline ticket prices used to be heavily regulated. That is the type of regulation we are talking about here. This killed-off a lot of long term existing carriers in both sectors. Big Business loved this because they could play carriers off each other and blackmail them into providing service for little to no profit. Check your history. As usual, your facts are wrong.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Rand is not monolithic in his beliefs as his Dad is ... he does not insist or talk in absolutes.
Only time will tell but if the US slides into a Western European Socialist government, Libertarian values will have no place in the mainstream National government.
That ship has long since sailed.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Trucking and the airlines were both deregulated during the 80's. There is a big difference between safety regulations that monitor driver qualifications, hazmat etc, and rates. Trucking rates and airline ticket prices used to be heavily regulated. That is the type of regulation we are talking about here. This killed-off a lot of long term existing carriers in both sectors. Big Business loved this because they could play carriers off each other and blackmail them into providing service for little to no profit. Check your history. As usual, your facts are wrong.

I can't understand why you are addressing me. After you outright lied in the other thread, I posted that I would disregard your other postings but I only wanted to address another of your misstatements. There is no reason for you to add other misstatements.

Since you chimed in, got any proof of your blackmail claim? Do you even know what blackmail is? Are you claiming blackmail was widespread in the transportation industry? I honestly do not know but given your track record in the other thread have to assume a lie? So check your history and let me know I'd be interested in the vast criminal activity you claim drove so many companies out of business.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
1) Yes. How many jobs were killed-off or made non-union with deregulation? Libertarians would say it's the free market just doing it's job. Many very large trucking companies and airlines disappeared very quickly. The newly formed companies were generally non-union, with much lower pay and benefits.

2) Here's another question. If you are 40 or 50, what industry do you re-train for, and how do you pay for it, especially since you just lost your job? Libertarians wouldn't want to subsidize re-training, so how do you become a programmer, or systems analyst when you have a mortgage and a family to support?

3) Most Libertarians are in secure careers where they don't have to worry about their jobs. It's fine to speculate about the other guy and just mouth platitudes about entrepreneurship, hard work, and self-reliance.

4) Unfortunately, the real world doesn't function on platitudes and hype.

1) I would think the net number of jobs stayed the same or increased - lower shipping costs allowed more packages to be shipped. The same is true for Airlines.
Trucking - other than FedEx, it is still an industry a strong union employee presence.
Airlines - Non-Union carriers are pressuring all airlines to be more cost effective.
Libertarians do not support the Railway Act under which FedEx skirts the law.

2) Libertarians would have no problem with subsidized re-training, as long as the Government is not doing the subsidizing.

3) Obviously, you don't attend or associate with groups of Libertarians - it seems a very large percentage are self-employed. The grassroots Libertarians are all mixes of wealth and race (not many women) - the one thing they have in common is a sense of principle and fairness and a belief in themselves and others that they can take care of themselves.

4) Unfortunately, that is what it does seem to function on.
Look at Bush and Obama and that is all you get. Look at the Congress and Senate and that is all you get. That is all that politicians do.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I can't understand why you are addressing me. After you outright lied in the other thread, I posted that I would disregard your other postings but I only wanted to address another of your misstatements. There is no reason for you to add other misstatements.

Since you chimed in, got any proof of your blackmail claim? Do you even know what blackmail is? Are you claiming blackmail was widespread in the transportation industry? I honestly do not know but given your track record in the other thread have to assume a lie? So check your history and let me know I'd be interested in the vast criminal activity you claim drove so many companies out of business.

Sorry that you are uninformed. It is a fact that shippers played-off carriers against each other once deregulation took effect. Please prove how this is a lie. It isn't. It killed literally hundreds of huge trucking companies because they coudn't compete under the new low-cost structure of the industry. You'd say that was a good thing. Not so good if you worked for one of these companies.

It wasn't much different for the airlines, which used to have ticket prices regulated by the CAB. Yes, we got new low-cost carriers, but we also got safety problems and bankrupt airlines that had been in business for many years.

You rant out your backside continuously and then accuse me of lying. Get your ducks in a row before you start making statements you can't back up. I know it's hard to believe in a defective panacea, but keep trying, OK?
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Sorry that you are uninformed. It is a fact that shippers played-off carriers against each other once deregulation took effect. Please prove how this is a lie. It isn't. It killed literally hundreds of huge trucking companies because they coudn't compete under the new low-cost structure of the industry. You'd say that was a good thing. Not so good if you worked for one of these companies.

It wasn't much different for the airlines, which used to have ticket prices regulated by the CAB. Yes, we got new low-cost carriers, but we also got safety problems and bankrupt airlines that had been in business for many years.

You rant out your backside continuously and then accuse me of lying. Get your ducks in a row before you start making statements you can't back up. I know it's hard to believe in a defective panacea, but keep trying, OK?

It is a fact that you claimed that transportation companies fell victim to blackmail and were driven out of business. You have a clear record of dishonesty here so you cannot blame me much for asking for something to back up that statement can you really? I do not know if you lied or not but given that you have lied in the past to try to prove a point with me I only can only assume that you have done it once again given the opportunity to prove your point followed by your normal finger pointing.

On to your broader point yes it is beneficial to society as a whole to have the ability to move goods, and people efficiently and at a low cost.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
“Our leaders invent nothing but new taxes, and conquer nothing but the pockets of their subjects.” — Thomas Hodgskin
Is government the source of our rights? I fear that today many people would say yes. Not infrequently it is said that the government or the Constitution grants us freedom of speech or press or the right to own property. This offends the natural-law tradition that was essential to the genesis of classical liberalism (“liberalism”) and the vital institutions it spawned. While some prominent early liberals sought to overthrow natural law in favor of the seemingly more-scientific utilitarianism, the heart and soul of liberalism is — and remains — the natural law. The philosophy would be impoverished without it.
Thomas Hodgskin (1787-1869) well understood this. He deserves to be better known than he is. Hodgskin was an early editor of The Economist and an important influence on Herbert Spencer, who also worked at that publication. Hodgskin is something of a puzzle for many people. He is often described as a Ricardian socialist, but in his case the label is misleading. Having lived before the marginal revolution, in which Carl Menger, founder of the Austrian school, and other economists provided an alternative to the Adam Smith/David Ricardo labor theory of value, Hodgskin did regard labor, rather than utility, as the source of economic value.
But calling him a socialist is bound to confuse. He was indeed a critic of “capitalism,” by which he and others back then meant government intervention on behalf of capital to the prejudice of labor. But he was no advocate of state control of the means of production. On the contrary, he was a influenced by the radical market economist J. B. Say and believed violations of laissez faire, such as tariffs, are what exploited workers by depriving them of their full, market-derived product. Only in a fully free and openly competitive environment void of privilege (“Middle English, from Old French, from Latin, a law affecting one person“) could laborers achieve justice. (Hodgskin developed his sympathy for labor while in the navy, where he observed the cruelty toward sailors. He himself was disciplined and eventually court-martialed and discharged.) As David Hart and Walter Grinder (pdf) write, “The radical individualist Thomas Hodgskin … gives a clear example of the application of the libertarian nonaggression principle to the acquisition and exchange of property. He also implies that those who benefit from ‘artificial’ property rights, that is, by force and state privilege, comprise a class antagonistic to the producing class.”
How unfortunate that siding with workers against government intervention on behalf of business has come to considered anti-libertarian! There was a time when one could write a book, as Hodgskin did, titled Labour Defended against the Claims of Capital without being thought a communist. (A modern example is here.)

continue reading: Real Liberalism and the Law of Nature
 
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