Voting out Bonus

[UPS Lifer]

soberups,
Touched a nerve did I! LOL!

Cash bribes and falsifying timecards...WOW! All this from Forbes #6 "Most Reputable Company" in the USA! Boy! UPS can sure fool those idiots at Forbes!!!


If I didn't know better I would have to say you and Grrrrr*ff are sharing secrets!
(Sorry to get you involved G****iff!) but I think soberups is not living up to the name right now!

Watch out now... you do realize that when you lean that far to the left you run the risk of falling right on your noggin! We wouldn't want that to happen!!!

As far as the rest of your post goes......

 

[HEFFERNAN]

I would like to see accident and injury statistics on these "bonus" centers. For the company to put a carrot in front of you and make you do the route faster than what their computers say it can be done, sounds very unsafe. Especially with the BIG push on safety and repeating verbatim all the phrases and safety lists, you can't tell me drivers aren't taking shortcuts and using unsafe methods to get this done.

Unless they want the drivers to retire earlier by beating their bodies into the ground for it, that's the only incentive I see.

 

[Ms.PacMan]

In the Central States Supplement, Article 19 Section 10 addresses getting rid of bonus.

There will be no newly implemented incentive plans or bonus plans unless approved by the affected employees and the union. Current plans will remain in effect unless grieved by the majority of the employees involved and approved by the JAC:

(1) Individual grievances must be completed by each employee requesting the plan to be terminated and the grievances must be submitted to the local union within three (3) weeks of their being written.

(2) Once a grievance on this subject has been submitted to the local union, mgmt. is not to attempt to resolve the grievance with the grievant without a representative of the union present.

(3) If a majority of the package car drivers in a center write grievances within a three (3) week period, the local union shall advise the employer within one (1) week and submit the issue to the JAC for approval.

(4) The local union shall have the right to attend any meetings on this subject conducted by the employer from the time the grievances are submitted to the JAC until they are heard. *end

So majority would be half the drivers + 1 writing grievances to dissolve the bonus agreement.

We have had bonus arguments in our center every few years. We all run some bonus (mere minutes) in a weeks time depending on the tide of dispatch.

A few run about an hour a day. They once ran 2-3 hours bonus per day and it was for several reasons. They were heavy on dock stops and pieces, they ran their butts off giving them lots of time before p/u's to go and initial other driver's pick-ups that looked good for their planned day (300 letters, etc.). That's when the fights started, from stealing pieces.

With the advent of GPS and one sacrificial driver who was fired for running up miles the big bonus days are over for those drivers.

My personal opinion is that time studies are weighted in UPS's favor in bonus centers and although most driver's choose to work by the hour and ignore bonus in our center, everyone looks like a slug and is open to harassment.

 

[Bubblehead]

The bonus system is indicative of many things that can be categorized as hypocritical at UPS. All day every day they preach safety! safety! safety! and then turn around and offer an incentive to contrary. Since the inception of PAS the time studies are tighter than ever. They are representative of a "perfect day" with no wiggle room. They don't even factor in time to sort on area because supposedly PAS has eliminated the need. With this in mind how do they figure a driver accomplishes a day were they are 1 to 2 hours under or more. They do so by short cutting their precious methods. Anything over and above their personal time (lunch and breaks) can't be explained any other way. I personally don't care if it stays or goes, but let's just call it what it is, HYPOCRASY.


With bonus nobody is getting paid extra money, they are getting time back for the same money or LESS than if they did it right.

 

[UPS Lifer]

I will try to paint a picture of the past vs the present without using a cynical approach in regards to bonus.

I really believe that when you ask individual drivers about bonus - you will find that most drivers feel that bonus is only fair if you actually make it! It is hard to disagree with this!

As a management person, I didn't trust IE either. Every time they came in to study something, goals were raised MSD was raised and allowances were reduced.

In most cases there was probably to much slop in the system. We were making money and Casey's (pre-competition) philosophy was share it!

I have worked in 3 districts. I went from a bonus district to a district that had such tight allowances the district was essentially a non-bonus district. I went back to the bonus district and it dissolved. The new district that replaced it tightened up the allowances significantly. Interesting huh!


You will find management on both sides of the fence on this issue. Time studies can be adjusted with variances. But this is a whole other issue! (variances will help the driver)

What we found in California was that loose allowances meant less or no supervision. There was a false sense of performance. As wages increased dramatically the bonus had to be earned and not given away. Believe me, at one time it was given away... Not anymore!


Tighter allowances changed everything. ...


Supervisors had to start supervising! They actually had to get on the car to do performance and methods rides.


This is where some cynical folks think that UPS is out to get them. Always remember that your company needs to be financially successful to survive and thrive with the competition. If it can't you won't have a job or a pension.

I have never found stats to indicate that a bonus center was less safe to work at than a non bonus center. (Back in the day I managed one of the top producing centers in the country) I can tell you that drivers and supervisors at non-bonus centers know and use and understand the methods.

The first thing I used to look for when there are a lot of injuries and accidents in an operation is the work climate and attitude of the management team and employees.

Bonus now is designed to reward drivers that put forth the extra effort to get the job done. By extra effort, I mean improved work pace, minimal contact (shooting the breeze) and customer help! Drivers who encourage customers to meet them or help them unload or load will benefit.

A top bonus driver should make no more than a half hour of bonus.... based on what I said above. If a driver makes more than that they are speeding, running, taking unnecessary shortcuts like jumping walls etc.

So - if a driver puts forth a little extra effort shouldn't you be allowed to cash in ??? -

Bonus is still good for the driver and good for the company - you can not convince me otherwise.

 

[soberups]

Bonus is still good for the driver and good for the company - you can not convince me otherwise.

I remmber an occasion when a package car broke down in the evening, and someone needed to go out to the driver and bring his pickup volume back to the building due to delays in getting a tow truck.
Two "bonus" drivers were asked to do it and they said "no, we would be working for free, we already made bonus today." The manager would have been put in the uncomfortable position of directing one of them to do it against their will. I solved the problem by volunteering to do it for the overtime.
Bonus corrupts the thinking. Work is no longer providing service to a customer for an hourly wage. Work instead becomes a statistic to manipulate for personal gain. Some work is "worth it" and some work isn't. This is a toxic mentality in terms of providing quality service.

 

[Bubblehead]

I remmber an occasion when a package car broke down in the evening, and someone needed to go out to the driver and bring his pickup volume back to the building due to delays in getting a tow truck.
Two "bonus" drivers were asked to do it and they said "no, we would be working for free, we already made bonus today." The manager would have been put in the uncomfortable position of directing one of them to do it against their will. I solved the problem by volunteering to do it for the overtime.
Bonus corrupts the thinking. Work is no longer providing service to a customer for an hourly wage. Work instead becomes a statistic to manipulate for personal gain. Some work is "worth it" and some work isn't. This is a toxic mentality in terms of providing quality service.

Well put.

 

[browned_out]

The problem with bonus is that its not available to all, in most centers/bldgs only a very small minority make it. When drivers look at the numbers in the morning they want to know why he makes bonus and I don't. Well there is no simple explaination, time studies, methods, short cuts, help at your stops, etc all play. My old route was a heavy industrial rte, 110/130 stops, 55 pick up acct's, 900/1200 pieces picked up daily. This route paid 1-3 hours bonus daily. But there were guys who had mainly residential rtes with some business, maybe 20/30 pick up acct's but only picked up 50/150 pieces and these guys couldn't make bonus. I have since transfered to another bldg and have only made bonus about 3 times in 4 years, I think PAS had alot to do with this lastest trend.

 

[overallowed]

We were one of the first centers in the nation to go on bonus. At one point we had 70%-80% of the drivers making bonus. As wages rose, (and other factors, too) management started little by little trying to reel it in by checking loads for bagged, high volume pickups (Letters and smalls) and started "codeing" time cards. I had a high volume pickup that bagged letters and other smalls, and was good for 750-1,000 pieces a day and made 2-3 hours bonus a day for a time. Management started codeing timecards and that was it for me. Then came the strike in '97, and our center voted it out. The other center in our building kept it, though. After a couple of years, our center voted it back in, and just like that, it was back. A handful of routes are the only ones that make anything significant. After the PAS system was installed at our center, they re-timestudied all routes, and about 90+% of our drivers run over. I haven't run scratch in years. Not even during peak. I still have a job. They can kiss my big white .
Overallowed. The name says it.
The numbers prove it. Bonus, the old fashioned way.

 

[mikestrek]

I was wondering if any centers have voted out bonus. With standards the way they are now it is almost impossible to get anyway , unless you give them lunch and run all day.
There has been talk in our building (NO IL District) about trying to get it out.

What's kind of strange, Is. Here in California we had the bonus also but we never voted it out because of the lunch Law Suit. We all now have to take an hour lunch or at minimum a half hour. That being the case, Bonus is thrown out the window. For the centers that still have Bonus. You'll notice how confusing it is and corporate knows that, Drivers are always scratching there heads, always wondering which is best? Bonus or take your breaks. It's a scam. I always take my full hour and my two (2) fifteen minute breaks, Monday through friday I never steal anything but I also dont give away free labor. Take your breaks guys and you don't have to wory about voting out the bonus.

 

[mikestrek]

I will try to paint a picture of the past vs the present without using a cynical approach in regards to bonus.

I really believe that when you ask individual drivers about bonus - you will find that most drivers feel that bonus is only fair if you actually make it! It is hard to disagree with this!

As a management person, I didn't trust IE either. Every time they came in to study something, goals were raised MSD was raised and allowances were reduced.

In most cases there was probably to much slop in the system. We were making money and Casey's (pre-competition) philosophy was share it!

I have worked in 3 districts. I went from a bonus district to a district that had such tight allowances the district was essentially a non-bonus district. I went back to the bonus district and it dissolved. The new district that replaced it tightened up the allowances significantly. Interesting huh!


You will find management on both sides of the fence on this issue. Time studies can be adjusted with variances. But this is a whole other issue! (variances will help the driver)

What we found in California was that loose allowances meant less or no supervision. There was a false sense of performance. As wages increased dramatically the bonus had to be earned and not given away. Believe me, at one time it was given away... Not anymore!


Tighter allowances changed everything. ...


Supervisors had to start supervising! They actually had to get on the car to do performance and methods rides.


This is where some cynical folks think that UPS is out to get them. Always remember that your company needs to be financially successful to survive and thrive with the competition. If it can't you won't have a job or a pension.

I have never found stats to indicate that a bonus center was less safe to work at than a non bonus center. (Back in the day I managed one of the top producing centers in the country) I can tell you that drivers and supervisors at non-bonus centers know and use and understand the methods.

The first thing I used to look for when there are a lot of injuries and accidents in an operation is the work climate and attitude of the management team and employees.

Bonus now is designed to reward drivers that put forth the extra effort to get the job done. By extra effort, I mean improved work pace, minimal contact (shooting the breeze) and customer help! Drivers who encourage customers to meet them or help them unload or load will benefit.

A top bonus driver should make no more than a half hour of bonus.... based on what I said above. If a driver makes more than that they are speeding, running, taking unnecessary shortcuts like jumping walls etc.

So - if a driver puts forth a little extra effort shouldn't you be allowed to cash in ??? -

Bonus is still good for the driver and good for the company - you can not convince me otherwise.

OH MY GOD! Did you go back and read everything you just wrote? If Bonus is that confusing and has to be explained in the way you just wrote. Think about it for just one second. You sound like corporate hasn't even given you all the bonus secrets. Bottom Line is this is a scam to make drivers believe that skipping there breaks is okay. When you skip your breaks your giving free labor to UPS. Good deal for corporate but bad news for employees. Corporate wants us all to feel like were stealing from the company if we take our full hour lunch and our two (2) fifteen minute breaks. Thank god for the lunch law suit here in California. Yet guys like yourself are still pushing Bonus. Give me a break. I hope this does convince you otherwise?

 

[soberups]

soberups,
Touched a nerve did I! LOL!
Cash bribes and falsifying timecards...WOW! All this from Forbes #6 "Most Reputable Company" in the USA! Boy! UPS can sure fool those idiots at Forbes!!!

We have had two supervisors in my building terminated for altering timecards to make their numbers look better.
When I first started, bonus was explained to me as a way to get paid for skipping my lunch. This is a direct quote from my first on-car supervisor. At that time, you were required to put "1 hour lunch" on your timecard, irregardless of the time actually taken.
I dont know if the writers at Forbes magazine are "idiots" or not. I do know, however, that they have never worked as package car drivers for UPS.
I am the one who has obviously touched a nerve here...the best way to tell that you are getting your point across in a debate is when your opponent has nothing to offer other than personal insults, derogatory comments and drunken "smiley" avatars as opposed to an adult discussion of the issue at hand.

 

[rocket man]

what you dont make enough that you cant take a break then you should not have made it as a driver if you dont have time to take lunch, if everone across the country would take there lunch NO ONE would get laid off we would need more drivers, 80.000 take lunch thats 80.000 man hours thats a lot of stops.

 

[longlunchguy]

what you dont make enough that you cant take a break then you should not have made it as a driver if you dont have time to take lunch, if everone across the country would take there lunch NO ONE would get laid off we would need more drivers, 80.000 take lunch thats 80.000 man hours thats a lot of stops.

The LONGLUNCHGUY couldn't have said it any better. I get tired of the guy on the route next to me skipping his lunch and going in early when I have to do his late pick ups and OCAs etc. etc. If we all took our whole lunch, everyday, our bodie would last longer and there'd be more driving jobs. And before any of you runandgunners tell me how fast you are and I'm too old and all that rhetoric, I just ran my 10th marathon.
I run every day BEFORE work about 5/6 miles. So you may be quicker than the old man for a few stops, but if we're just gonna race all day....I think I can still keep up. Sorry for the rant, also.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I personally don't begrudge those drivers who wish to skip their lunches/breaks as long as their doing so does not impact my day, such as LLG described above. We have one of those and I am occassionally asked to cover his P/Us and OCAs and I always decline, telling them to assign them to the appropriate driver. This driver has been known to call his P/U accounts on his cell to see if they have anything going and has had some of his P/U accounts assigned to other drivers (including me) because he is way too early. He has also received complaints because he has signed for deliveries or DRed stops that should not have been DRed. Why does he run to get done so early? He has a part-time job ($10K/yr) as youth director for his hometown sports program so we all know John has to get done early to get to his "real" job.

 

[UPS Lifer]

OH MY GOD! Did you go back and read everything you just wrote? If Bonus is that confusing and has to be explained in the way you just wrote. Think about it for just one second. You sound like corporate hasn't even given you all the bonus secrets. Bottom Line is this is a scam to make drivers believe that skipping there breaks is okay. When you skip your breaks your giving free labor to UPS. Good deal for corporate but bad news for employees. Corporate wants us all to feel like were stealing from the company if we take our full hour lunch and our two (2) fifteen minute breaks. Thank god for the lunch law suit here in California. Yet guys like yourself are still pushing Bonus. Give me a break. I hope this does convince you otherwise?

Mike,

You are putting words in my mouth...! I never once said anything about skipping lunches or breaks. Here is what I said....

Bonus now is designed to reward drivers that put forth the extra effort to get the job done. By extra effort, I mean improved work pace, minimal contact (shooting the breeze) and customer help! Drivers who encourage customers to meet them or help them unload or load will benefit.

Please don't take things I say out of context. I am retired and I have no reason to support the company either way. I have sold all my stock and re-invested it.

I try to give you guys the benefit of 36 years of experience. Eight of those years, I was an hourly who did just about every job and the rest in management. I was a manager for over 20 years. I worked in every department except automotive as a manager in that time frame. I am just trying to give you folks another point of reference to help you. There is a lot of great info posted here on BC. I feel very comfortable that because of posters like you, UPS is in great hands! But if I can add a little something I try!

I believe in the union and the contract. I am sure though, my interpretation may be different than your interpretation or others on some articles. I don't believe in management versus non-management.

Soberups writes about the lunch and break thing in his post... and I concur with that. Years ago we told drivers that same thing. You probably still have supervisors today saying it. But, a decision was reached in the California court system that has driven a different approach. This approach is "take your lunch and breaks!". I have always supported taking lunch and breaks and following the contract. To me at has to do with energy... You need to stop and re-charge. You are a much more productive individual if you re-charge every so often. It just makes sense.

You drivers should be given the choice as how much effort you should use during your planned day. Do you want to make bonus and forfeit your overtime to go home earlier (if possible) or do you want to be a scratch driver. It is up to you. This should not be someone else's decision. If you find that you have a management team that sends you back out - well then do what you have to do. I have found that most drivers I talk with feel that the incentive to put in extra effort is to get off earlier.

My experience has taught me that I would prefer every driver to be a scratch driver who follows the methods but I think you should have the ability to make the choice.

Oh! and the other posters make an excellent point - the guy that makes bonus shouldn't affect their day. BUT - Their day shouldn't affect the bonus driver's day either.

It is not a perfect system by any stretch of the imagination but it wasn't designed as a devious means to control drivers either as some posters have eluded to!!! LOL

 

[UPS Lifer]

...the best way to tell that you are getting your point across in a debate is when your opponent has nothing to offer other than personal insults, derogatory comments and drunken "smiley" avatars as opposed to an adult discussion of the issue at hand.

This coming from someone who is trying to discredit me by associating my posts with racism and sexism. You are too funny.

By the way, when did you get promoted to the management committee?
We are so lucky to have your inside knowledge on how management thinks that employee$ are nothing more than a $$. You state this with the authority that only a management committee member would have!!!

My point is you have opinions but you state them as company facts unless I am misinterpreting this? Am I ??? If so, I apologize.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

One of our bonus babies finally decided to slow down a bit and take his full hour lunch lately. The route he usually runs started getting more and more stops. The rest of us kept telling him he was screwing the route up by running all day and sorting and delivering during lunch. The minimum stop count has been approaching 180 stops and the route has gone out with close to 200 on Wednesdays more than a few times this summer.

 

[overallowed]

big_arrow_up:
I find your comments about Obama interesting. you speak of giving the government more power, are you talking of more power than bush has siezed? Do you think the founding fathers intended to have a government that cherry picks evidence to start wars, eavesdrop on its own citizens, and operates torture camps. Did the founding fathers intend for us to have what has become a facist type govenment that we have morphed into? I have a hard time believing McCain (or McBush) is the answer.
It is a little early to turn this into a political forum.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

big_arrow_up:
I find your comments about Obama interesting. you speak of giving the government more power, are you talking of more power than bush has siezed? Do you think the founding fathers intended to have a government that cherry picks evidence to start wars, eavesdrop on its own citizens, and operates torture camps. Did the founding fathers intend for us to have what has become a facist type govenment that we have morphed into? I have a hard time believing McCain (or McBush) is the answer.
It is a little early to turn this into a political forum.

There is absolutely no proof to back up any of the garbage you just presented so I won't respond to any of it other than to say that you are responding to a signature and not a posting. I tend to keep politics in the current events forum. Good day!