When did corp. lose touch?

[dillweed]

They have always beaten down the hourlies as far as I've seen in my 14 years with the company.

Seems they have always pitted hourlies against each other by playing favorites and letting uncomfortable situations get out of hand. Just a game we have to learn to tolerate. One day you're a hero, the next you're a turd.

PAL labels haven't made us perfect and that has put pressure on everyone.

Seems some of the new hires have no sense of urgency and, in fact, want to be coddled. For some odd reason management seems to be going along with it. Makes for bad blood between those who have always busted butt and those who stand and watch. Some of the butt-busters have slowed down and said "to heck with this".

I'm still satisfied with what I do and the money I make and still give a fair day's work. Let those on top battle it out. All we have to do is the best we can at our own level. dw

 

[beentheredonethat]

For those of you down in the Atlanta area that can do this. Take a look at the number of cars in the parking lots at 7:30 then at 9:00 then at 4:00 PM then again at 6:00 PM. You'll notice hardly any at 730 AM or 6:00 PM. Most people and depts think of corporate as semi retired. Yet at the same time they work on giving the local districts more work to do and report on. Corporate should freeze it's staffing level. Since so many are near retirement age, it shouldn't take too long to get to an appropriate staffing level and get all of corporate back in one building.

 

[No Talent Clown]

What do UPS and GM have in common? Take a look at where GM is now. Think about it.....Changes need to happen quick!

 

[JtRB]

Wonder what UPS customers would think is they knew how things were being run. I think if they did UPS would fall fast

 

[VoiceOfReason]

What do UPS and GM have in common? Take a look at where GM is now. Think about it.....Changes need to happen quick!

The japanese are delivering packages in the US?!

 

[hoser]

1)There are lots of people there now who have never handled a package in their lives. The people there that did once actually work in operation did it so long ago that they are completely out of touch with the "real" world.

2) December's coming - when you are breaking your butt trying to sort/load/deliver some these people will be taking vacations

1) UPS heavily promotes from within and a lot of people in the higher ranks know the game. The fact that a lot of the executives started loading trucks says a LOT about this policy. There are tons of companies where the executives NEVER worked on the front line, and you whine that the executives are "out of touch".
2) UPS executives are working the line. The Canadian President works the Mississauga sort.

 

[wkmac]

1) UPS heavily promotes from within and a lot of people in the higher ranks know the game. The fact that a lot of the executives started loading trucks says a LOT about this policy. There are tons of companies where the executives NEVER worked on the front line, and you whine that the executives are "out of touch".

hoser,
That's changing rapidly and will continue to do so IMO. When UPS started the multi-tier wage scale for PTer's in 1982' the difference in the $8 per hour start and the prior to 82' contract inside PT wage was in the $3 plus neighborhood. With the benefits, etc. you could still draw from the topside of workpool and get good people. As the years have gone by this equation has gottem more and more lopsided to the point today that we in many cases are drawing from the bottom with many a urban hub or center even having to adapt internal security measures as a result that it's alledged many inside PTers are in gangs and as well have criminal records and backgrounds.

As your very foundation of your company from which you get your drivers and supervisory ranks deminish, so does the quality looking forward do the same. We've now seen UPS institute a series of test and panel interviews in order to pull what they can from the pool we now have. It's ironic some portions of these test are math based as it was assumed and for the most part a good assumption back in the day that any supervisor candidate had at least basic business math skills but that is not the case today. Over the last few years I've also seen more and more incidents of workplace violence or situations so close that they could have easily spilt over into that arena. In years past, this was not impossible but it was not a very uncommon event either.

I think in the drive to maximize profits, UPS took an approach (with the Union's blessing) that if you talk with most frontline level management today they will either privately voice serious concerns (most FT hourlies with any amount of years service seem to mirror those same concerns) or the manager, especially one who is Staff level and up will utter the "no comment" but with a look you can easily read like a 1st grade reader.

I do think the 97' strike had some impact at the time and just after but in the years since that impact has been lessened IMO. I think the much greater impact of the stock and the corp. sexual addiction with meeting a stock price verses doing our jobs and what we promise the customer is the driving force. (no pun to John Force either!) I think that has to do with not so much the people at the top whom many came up through the ranks but their underlings who many have only seen a package car in a picture of as they commute the highways of their own neighborhoods. These underlings are on whom it's relied to feed data, information, info interpretation and finally solutions to these top level managers and if they have no knowledge of the job itself, it's blind luck when they suggest something that actually works.

IMO, it will only get worse as it's taken us years to get where we are and it will take years to get back if we are ever able too!

JMH but Opinion!

 

[hoser]

hoser,
That's changing rapidly and will continue to do so IMO. When UPS started the multi-tier wage scale for PTer's in 1982' the difference in the $8 per hour start and the prior to 82' contract inside PT wage was in the $3 plus neighborhood. With the benefits, etc. you could still draw from the topside of workpool and get good people. As the years have gone by this equation has gottem more and more lopsided to the point today that we in many cases are drawing from the bottom with many a urban hub or center even having to adapt internal security measures as a result that it's alledged many inside PTers are in gangs and as well have criminal records and backgrounds.

As your very foundation of your company from which you get your drivers and supervisory ranks deminish, so does the quality looking forward do the same. We've now seen UPS institute a series of test and panel interviews in order to pull what they can from the pool we now have. It's ironic some portions of these test are math based as it was assumed and for the most part a good assumption back in the day that any supervisor candidate had at least basic business math skills but that is not the case today. Over the last few years I've also seen more and more incidents of workplace violence or situations so close that they could have easily spilt over into that arena. In years past, this was not impossible but it was not a very uncommon event either.

I think in the drive to maximize profits, UPS took an approach (with the Union's blessing) that if you talk with most frontline level management today they will either privately voice serious concerns (most FT hourlies with any amount of years service seem to mirror those same concerns) or the manager, especially one who is Staff level and up will utter the "no comment" but with a look you can easily read like a 1st grade reader.

I do think the 97' strike had some impact at the time and just after but in the years since that impact has been lessened IMO. I think the much greater impact of the stock and the corp. sexual addiction with meeting a stock price verses doing our jobs and what we promise the customer is the driving force. (no pun to John Force either!) I think that has to do with not so much the people at the top whom many came up through the ranks but their underlings who many have only seen a package car in a picture of as they commute the highways of their own neighborhoods. These underlings are on whom it's relied to feed data, information, info interpretation and finally solutions to these top level managers and if they have no knowledge of the job itself, it's blind luck when they suggest something that actually works.

IMO, it will only get worse as it's taken us years to get where we are and it will take years to get back if we are ever able too!

JMH but Opinion!

Very good points, I'm glad I'm getting a meaningful response than half-assed ridicule.

As much as you paint a grim picture, UPS is drawing in many college and university kids through their earn and learn; you have a young group of keeners, you're paying their school, they're going to be loyal. Of course middle managers hate the operational situation, my p/t supervisor vents at every one of her bosses whenever she has a chance. She's pissed, but she has no choice, she has to make her numbers, even in a centre we've outgrown a decade ago because margins are thin. profit profit profit.

The reason I see this is due to the fact that UPS is unionized inside and out; labour is your number one cost, and when you have industry leading pay and benefits, you're going to demand more of your employees. FX employees seem to be happier making a bit less but also working a lot less. It's a dilemma really. Think UPSers will take concessions?

 

[Thebrowntruth]

Very good points, I'm glad I'm getting a meaningful response than half-assed ridicule.

As much as you paint a grim picture, UPS is drawing in many college and university kids through their earn and learn; you have a young group of keeners, you're paying their school, they're going to be loyal. Of course middle managers hate the operational situation, my p/t supervisor vents at every one of her bosses whenever she has a chance. She's pissed, but she has no choice, she has to make her numbers, even in a centre we've outgrown a decade ago because margins are thin. profit profit profit.

The reason I see this is due to the fact that UPS is unionized inside and out; labour is your number one cost, and when you have industry leading pay and benefits, you're going to demand more of your employees. FX employees seem to be happier making a bit less but also working a lot less. It's a dilemma really. Think UPSers will take concessions?

Hoser,

Im just curious what part of the world you are in? It is great to here that UPS is attracting college age and educated kids near your neck of the woods. The reality i have seen is VERY VERY few college kids are applying at UPS. The p/t wage minus union dues just does not compete when you can give up a dollar less an hour, have work that is MUCH less difficult and usually better and more flexible hours. The part time wage in some area is only about 15-20% over minimum wage compared to when i started (and was in college) when it was almost 200% over minimum. The sad reality i see is middle age and older employees being hired to do the work that honestly is suited better for the younger aged individual. I cant do what i did when i was 20. The lessons i learned about hard work at UPS when i was though has helped a lot in life!

 

[hoser]

Hoser,

Im just curious what part of the world you are in? It is great to here that UPS is attracting college age and educated kids near your neck of the woods. The reality i have seen is VERY VERY few college kids are applying at UPS. The p/t wage minus union dues just does not compete when you can give up a dollar less an hour, have work that is MUCH less difficult and usually better and more flexible hours. The part time wage in some area is only about 15-20% over minimum wage compared to when i started (and was in college) when it was almost 200% over minimum. The sad reality i see is middle age and older employees being hired to do the work that honestly is suited better for the younger aged individual. I cant do what i did when i was 20. The lessons i learned about hard work at UPS when i was though has helped a lot in life!

Calgary. Our economy is booming beyond reason and we got a massive COLA increase ($12.80 to a max of $16.90) so that's bringing more people in. Thing is, people can go north and work in the oilsands for $2000 a week (no joke) or down the street to Nortel for $18.00 doing a lot less, but this job completely pays for my education, has good hours, and very very good room for advancement (I have no honor ).

Being that I love the courier game, I want to be a driver in the summer and they'll let me do that. Then I'll probably apply for a sup job when school's back in. I'm waiting for the new centre which will be built right on the airport so I can do ramp handling, which is gravy.

 

[rngri4]

I think, as alluded to in an earlier post, that Atlanta is losing touch because most of the people there have never really worked in a center operation. Look at the board bio's on the UPS website, most of our board is made up of people who started as clerks, or something of that nature, and never really saw how the operation worked, and some started right as HR Managers or IE Managers. It should be a requirement, that all new management people hired as outside spend at least six months in an operation, on the front line, to get better understanding.

 

[upsdude]

A couple of you guys already nailed it, corporate bio’s. Eskew was hired right out of college as a manager. Now he runs the ship yet he never worked on it. I’d love for Eskew to do a 3 day ride with me. I’d love for him to show me what I’m doing wrong. I’d love for Eskew to see the way my supervisor is treated by his boss, the language, the attitude etc.

Come on Mikey get your hands dirty.

 

[chev]

75k this year?

I already hit that last week. "Go slow make mo"

 

[rickybobby]

We have reached a point in time where there are truly more cheifs than indians. This is true in both management and hourly ranks. Cheifs are not the ones making the results, it is the indians. Corporate needs to offer a buyout to the higher paid management and make way for the younger, more technically inclined crowd. We have evolved into a technology company but somehow most management above supervisor level remains technologically ignorant.

 

[hoser]

We have reached a point in time where there are truly more cheifs than indians. This is true in both management and hourly ranks. Cheifs are not the ones making the results, it is the indians. Corporate needs to offer a buyout to the higher paid management and make way for the younger, more technically inclined crowd. We have evolved into a technology company but somehow most management above supervisor level remains technologically ignorant.

fully agreed

 

[wkmac]

UPS is drawing in many college and university kids through their earn and learn; you have a young group of keeners, you're paying their school, they're going to be loyal.

Not true in all conditions. First off, the "earn and learn" is not available across the board. I work in a major metro facility and the only employees that qualify for the college reimbursement are the PT supervisors. Nothing is available for the PT hourly ranks. As for loyality, this isn't true either as not only are seasoned folks moving on but also many of the PT sups. who came up via "earn and learn" got a rude awakening when they got their degree but told they must come up via the FT specialist route first and then to insult further they see management trainees and interns get the first slots when they do open. In many cases the trainee and intern have little if any knowledge of how the system works and cause chaos and problems until they either catch on or become the latest "hot potatoe" being passed from one function to another hoping someone can make them successful while saving face for the manager that hired and then went out on the limb to get them on permanent because they played the political "yes" game good.

Our function had 2 recent longtime employees who had their degrees but were getting nowhere and they finally left. One ended up working in an engineering capacity with a corp. jet manufacturer and his starting salary was $115k per year, 5 days a week and an 8 hour day that was so relaxed compared to UPS the guy almost feels like he's on vacation. To make it even better he lives 15 minutes from the beach! The other just left and is going to work for a gov't DOT also in an engineering capacity but the pay and benefits are about the same as UPS but the longterm benefits and other potentials are very good and in the environment of UPS today, not only did this person make the right move but back in the spring as the graduation date approached I highly encouraged this employee to look and move beyond UPS.

Buying loyality? Maybe where you are but I'm not seeing that.

We have reached a point in time where there are truly more cheifs than indians. This is true in both management and hourly ranks. Cheifs are not the ones making the results, it is the indians. Corporate needs to offer a buyout to the higher paid management and make way for the younger, more technically inclined crowd. We have evolved into a technology company but somehow most management above supervisor level remains technologically ignorant.

In some respects I happen to agree but in other cases I do not. IMO many mid-level management are at best papermen and data gathering leemings for the high ups as they need these folks to micro manage. The management teams at the point of business are stripped of the ability to run the business but that is really a whole other thread in itself. First off, I'm a big believer in technology and a huge believer in automation but I'll be the first to admit that automation would be a huge boom for me and my function but I'm also not a believer that automation eliminates jobs. If that were the case UPS would be neck deep in it and even in our sorting operation, automation at best might eliminate 20% of the total workforce and that's on a good day. That also doesn't include what you would have to hire to maintain the technology. The cost is still prohibited until you reach a certain scale of operation like Worldport for example. Worldport is extremely automated but they still employee 1000's of sort employees. There is no technology out there that works, is cost effective and a reality that would/could eliminate all inside employees and nothing is in the foreseeable future either.

Now with that said, let's talk about dumping the dinosaurs in exchange for the more evolved species. You are right that the new crop is very technology driven and has no fear but they lack one very important factor. You say we are a technology company but I say wrong! When you boil it down to it's core basics, what do we really do? We take merchandise from one person and deliever it to another. Now have we incorporated technology into that process? Absolutely. However that part is not the core mission and although these wiz-kids are very good in the technological realm, they lack the seasoned experience of taking that package from one and getting it to another and all the processes that goes through. I've seen many a wiz-kid come through who was wicked with a laptop but take em out into the hub into my world of the conveyor systems and especially on the electrical side of things and they are totally lost. Give me a kid who is a gearhead at home restoring his old car, has been a sorter and driver but going to school getting his engineering degree and in short order he can function very well right there in my world. To make things even better, he brings things to the table from his side that I learn and I bring 30 plus years hands-on from my side and man what we could get done. He's the one on the beach and building jets now!

You've gotta have the right mix of good quality experince but also folks with the latest tools and gadgets to get things done. In the mid-90's this company bought out a lot of management folks almost in the same vein of thinking as you've expressed but a lot of very smart people will also tell you now that in some respects it was a mistake because we also lost a lot of smart and talented people in the process. The one thing I've never understood about this company is we promote folks into management and in many cases throw them to the wolves but at the same time UPS has a huge resource pool of knowledge out there in retired managers so why not utilize this resource as mentors and have them come into the local operations on an occassional basis to work one one one with these new sups and help them over those first hard bumps they are bound to hit. I think in the longrun their years of experience, especially inside the sorting operations would produced excellent payback over the longhaul. Not every retiree should come back in this capacity and not all will want to either but I do believe they have a lot they could contribute in just training these newbies on just many of the basics that the FT sort management staff doesn't have the time to do.

Before you decide to cast aside all dinosaurs just for one reason only, you'd better take the time to "Get the Big Picture" as what you replace them with will likely not have the skills yet to handle "the Big Picture!"

JMO.

 

[rickybobby]

wkmac - You have several valid points. We need the right mix of skilled employees with the knowledge to perform their work successfully. One of the corporate sayings is "Sustain the core." I think we are far past that, not sure if we are even maintaining the core anymore. Have you ever heard of the policy, "We promote from within?" Are you familiar with the management trainee program? Like Casey's values and drive, the policy book has gone the way of what corporate does nowadays to sustain the core....

 

[rngri4]

WKMAC this is the real issue, how many of those earn and learn people ever advance into management? Few, if hardly any, the PT Sups however, are wide eyed at big salaries, they let UPS pay for their schooling, and then get their much desired promotions. Many PT Sups are hired off the streets, and have no clue, then when they go to FT all they have to fall back on is education, and I hate to say, but as a former cop, I knew nothing myself out of the academy, I learned it on the street. Apply the same principle to the majority of the P/T Sups and you will have an answer. As soon as an employee with a short amount of time is promoted, they think they own the world as a small fry part timer, bossing drivers around etc, just another example, of how UPS tells them they are in charge, when really again, what other company has Part Time employees giving orders to Full Time people? That is a big fault of the UPS philosophy, tell the P/T Sups, they are not in charge of any driver, and if there is a problem, there are driver sups to handle it, the part time sups are not to get involved, they are to supervise other part time people that simple!

 

[toonertoo]

Rngri, I agree with most of what you say here, and most posts. And I dont get why pt sups boss drivers around but in some centers they do. Actually in some centers they are the only ones there up til an hour before start, and ft is usually not there after 6. While I would bet this doesnt happen in large centers it does in both small ones I have worked in.
Pt sups do what they are told even if it isnt suppose to be their job.
When I was a sup, admittedly many yrs ago, we had a big boss from somewhere come in and started asking me what I was doing, he said Im suppose to be on the belt. I told him I had everything going fine on the belt. I had to get my conference call numbers together, and doing my dispatch by volume estimates, and I had to put the drivers in the right seats. He told me that was full times job, not mine. I was shocked, and I replied "im the only one here" He said they could do all that when they got there. Well when they showed up, everything changed, drivers came to me asking me where they were going and how much they had, which they had done for 6 yrs. I kept telling them It wasnt my job any more. The manager had no #s for his conference call and the ft sups didnt know what to dispatch, or where to find the estimates, or where to find the driver knowledge bible that I had made for myself. Basically I dont think anyone knew what their job was, they were just doing what was left. I didnt know it wasnt my job, I thought it was, and I loved it and I got it all taken away in a day. I was relegated to wasting my time doing 10 pkg audits, on a crew that ran 100%, daily. I had to "give" away my knowledge, to people who never worked to get it as I did. My files were totally up to date and I made the coffee. I felt like a true part of UPS, I thought I was doing well and I would get promoted coz I did good, when in reality all I did was make everyones job easier, and thats why they wouldnt let me advance coz then they would have had to do a harder job.
I guess thats why I get bitter over UPS because I worked hard to get ahead, and they strangled me and I stayed too long and let my degree get old. When they finally offered me a drivers job 70 miles away I took it because I had enough , too much time in already, I felt to just walk away. Many days I wish I had got out while I was younger, my fault for not, but I needed a paycheck, and I was the sole support of my family.
So I guess it hits a nerve when you say, its not their job, because maybe its not a power thing, maybe they think it is their job because that is how they have been conditioned. Sorry for the rant just my opinion.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

I thought I was doing well and I would get promoted coz I did good, when in reality all I did was make everyones job easier, and thats why they wouldnt let me advance coz then they would have had to do a harder job.

Man this is my #1 fear as a part-time sup. My FT management team is out the door by 5pm almost every day of the week, I get asked "Are we good" and the answer is always yes and thats it. The senior driver sup makes an effort to take vaction or days off when I am not there because he wants nothing to do with the center at night without me.