63 Miles Per Gallon?

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
I would be that person. Buying fuel for my '06 GMC 2500, which I use to tow my boat and camper, is cheaper than buying another vehicle just to drive the 14 mile round trip to work everyday.

If gasoline were $6 or $7 per gallon at the pump....which is closer to its true cost anyway when you factor in the enviornmental costs of drilling,subsidizing tax breaks for the oil companies, and the cost of maintaining a military presence in the Middle East....it would not be cheaper than buying a more fuel efficient vehicle. And if petroleum-based gasoline were taxed to make it $6 or $7 at the pump while a locally produced renewable biofuel that wasnt subject to that tax were only $3 or $4....the free market would very quickly begin meeting the demand for vehicles that could use such fuels.

I believe in capitalism and the free market, but the free market concept doesnt work when you are talking about a finite, irreplaceable resource such as oil. There is only so much recoverable oil on earth, and once it has been consumed it is gone forever. All the money in the world wont be enough to buy something that no longer exists. We are currently transitioning to an oil-free energy economy, whether we like it or not. How painful that transition winds up being is pretty much up to us.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
If everybody drove fuel efficient vehicles, wouldn't they have to raise the taxes? I mean they have to get the revenue from somewhere.

If everybody drove fuel efficient vehicles, we could raise the per-gallon tax on gasoline without directly impacting the cost for the average motorist to drive.

A 15 MPG vehicle running on $2 per gallon gas is more expensive to operate than a 40 MPG vehicle running on $4 per gallon gas that includes a $2 per gallon tax. Imagine that $2 per gallon tax being used to repair our infrastructure and directly reduce the federal deficit that we are dumping off onto our grandchildren. If domestically-produced biofuels were exempt from such a tax, then the money spent on thos fuels would stay in the United States and stimulate our economy instead of being sent overseas to stimulate the bank account of some Arab shiek.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
apparently, "there's just no justification for me". AND if we all hop on a train, what kind of gas taxes will come in? The train would never, never be paid off because, like Borat's healthcare, you can't force people to ride it. Right now I see Amtrak & Metrolink go by operating almost empty....probably making $$$ hand over fist just like the Post Office.

They cant compete because it is still cheaper and easier for the average person to hop in a car and fill it up with gasoline produced from imported fossil fuels.

Its not going to be that way forever. The sooner we admit that fact and begin making some changes, the better off we will all be.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
If gasoline were $6 or $7 per gallon at the pump....which is closer to its true cost anyway when you factor in the enviornmental costs of drilling,subsidizing tax breaks for the oil companies, and the cost of maintaining a military presence in the Middle East....it would not be cheaper than buying a more fuel efficient vehicle. And if petroleum-based gasoline were taxed to make it $6 or $7 at the pump while a locally produced renewable biofuel that wasnt subject to that tax were only $3 or $4....the free market would very quickly begin meeting the demand for vehicles that could use such fuels.

I believe in capitalism and the free market, but the free market concept doesnt work when you are talking about a finite, irreplaceable resource such as oil. There is only so much recoverable oil on earth, and once it has been consumed it is gone forever. All the money in the world wont be enough to buy something that no longer exists. We are currently transitioning to an oil-free energy economy, whether we like it or not. How painful that transition winds up being is pretty much up to us.

Sober,

You say the free market wouldn't work and in the current framework of what is called free market, you have a point. However, a real free market wouldn't have a 3rd party in the mix who holds certain monopoly status granting such privilege as tax breaks and other govt privileges that act as price supports, profit supports and market entry barriers for others. Also the 3rd party holds a stake in the current business model becuase it's a major tax revenue stream so for starters what are the odds an alternative energy source will actually get a fair shake, be allowed to enter the makeplace but also allowed to enter at the same regulatory level as the current market players enjoyed when they started? This is where regulation becomes regulatory capture and is used as market protectionism to protect the current status to the damage of not only new market innovations but also to consumers. Copyright, trademark and IP play into this but that's another story for another time.

This regime also acts as a price support in that as new innovations would lessen the value of the older models eg think the value now of a 486 PC verses when they were the newest thing because new innovations and new players entered the market and thus discounting those older models down in price. By protecting the status quo, technological stagnation has set in and thus misallocation of resources is encouraged and ramifications throughout society are seen. And then we calmour to the very people to fix the mess that they created in the first place. It's like asking the fox to fix the dying chicken problem.

Just for the sake of discussion, if for example someone entered the market with some form of biodiesel, would this supply added to the marketplace put pressure on petro diesel to increase or decrease in price? Who benefits and who doesn't and in the current regime in the case of price, who benefits and who doesn't? The fact that certain industries, oil being one, holds a special privilege status of not only regulatory benefits but also subsidy benefits damages any actions of a free market. Oil also enjoys passing the costs of transport lane protections and international business environment protections off onto the taxpayer or consumer and even if the one wanted to make the oil companies pay this privilege cost in the form of some tax, this cost itself is passed right off to the consumer/taxpayer and thus no real effect to the oil company profit stream to begin with. If one wanted to see oil as part of the commons and eliminate a 3rd party rent seeker in the middle, the true costs are still there to begin with and I still believe that domestic and even local alternatives would/should win the day if true freedom in the marketplace really did exist.

As for oil being finite? I use to believe that as well until I learned that oil is not fossil in origin but is rather Abiotic in origin and actually replenishes itself over and over again. But like a water aquifer, if you pull more oil than nature is able to produce, it would seem finite and in order to maintain an ever upward price, if you could have a customer base who believes a consumer product is at ever smaller and smaller supply, upward constant pricing seems justified among other things. Truth is, better management of consumption to equalize to what is being produced and problem would stablize but then what happens to your pricing model and what happens to the trendline on profits for the sake of Wall Street? The link to abiotic oil above is just a extremely small tip on the research and data and I've posted more in other posts here so I won't rehash but search Abiotic for yourself and see what you learn about it.

Buses and other modes of mass transit. At one time, many towns across America had trolley systems and may of those were even privately owned but the good folks at GM who were in bed with the govt convinced enough folks to eliminate trollies and convert to buses. Now it goes without saying that the oil companies were in on this gig as well but the rest as they say is history. Mass transit presents both positive and negatives to all and just infrastructure costs alone are pretty big to say the least. Several month ago after some ongoing debate about the issue, American Conservative Magazine formed the Center for Public Transportation and before you see the words conservative and public transportation and assume, be careful and I'll quote the opening page from the center's website:
Not every conservative — not even every libertarian – believes America’s unofficial motto should be “drive or die.” There is a long conservative tradition of not wanting to see America reduced to nothing but strip malls, gas stations and pavement. Russell Kirk was a voice for that tradition, as was my friend and colleague for thirty-five years, Paul Weyrich.
All for the most part at some level agree that in an earlier America, the individual at some level was more free than today and yet at the same time, towns and cities across America had forms or some form of mass transit and yet the threat of being overrun by state socialism from it was not in the mix. It's with that point that the discussion on public transportation has taken off in the paleo-con/libertarian world and I find it most interesting. Not direct to the conversation here but I've been reading Ivan Illich's "Deschooling Society" (yes it is about ending schooling as we know it but much more) at The Preservation Institute but while there I also ran across this concerning the tearing down of the interstate/freeway system as we know it. From the standpoint of a UPSer, this is like holding court with the grim reaper but on a larger level, it is very thought provoking POV to say the least. And for those who think this utter nonsense and foolishness, then from a longterm UPS planning mode, consider this factoid regarding Nashville Tenn.





  • Nashville, TN, Downtown Loop: Nashville's fifty-year plan, adopted in 2004, calls for gradually removing the eight-mile downtown loop made up of three interstates - Interstate 65, Interstate 40 and Interstate 24 -- and replacing it with parks, boulevards and mixed-use communities to reconnect downtown with adjacent neighborhoods.

What does that do to future plans in regards to not only local distribution but major transit lanes and time-n-transit picture? And do you think Nashville is alone in this? Not hardly. It's way past time we got out of the box and started thinking and talking about vastly different ideas. And don't let anyone say it has to be a one size fits all because that thinking has gotten us where we are now. Remember that!

:peaceful:
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Brett a couple of years ago spoke about a VW diesel that get's 70 mph and the closest it's sold to America I think he said Mexico. I think the model was called the Letto? I'm hoping Brett will jump in here because he had a lot of good details on this issue.

I got courious based on several of your comments and I googled "why US doesn't have more diesel cars" and here is what popped up. Opinions vary obviously. I don't own a diesel so I say that for full disclosure but I find the diesel does offer many advantages that gasoline does not.

BTW: Do we dare discuss the taxation model as it pertains to roads as maybe the real gun in the room to why we don't have super mileage vehicles? The higher the mileage per gallon the less in tax revenues!
:surprised::wink2:


So finally I can get around to replying to this. Better late than never I suppose.

The VW model you are referring to was the VW Lupo. The diesel version could get up into the 70 mpg range which is far far better than any hybrid on the market today. As with most diesel vehicles it did not benefit VW to bring the Lupo to the states for many reasons. First of all the Lupo is a very small car, and VW believes that Americans want larger cars. Our diesel standards for passenger vehicles vary from state to state so the diesel engine would have to be redesigned from an emissions standpoint to meet the stringent requirements of states like Commiefornia...er I mean California. Then of course you have our ever tightening crash standards which would require a redevelopment of the body of the car making it heavier and possible get worse fuel economy as a result. All this money that would need to be dumped into redevelopment to bring it to the states where it would probably flop because of its small size makes any good intention of bringing it here a bad business decision.


Wait till the end to hear Jeremy compare the Prius to the Lupo. If miles per gallon is your goal diesel is the only way to go.


I still long for a daily driver that is a diesel, but I have been disappointed with both the lack of available diesel passenger cars here in the U.S. and the redesign of the one diesel car I was seriously considering, the VW Jetta. Maybe I will purchase a used 2010 model or just keep what I have since my vehicles are running fine despite their age. I hear Mazda is bringing a diesel here, but I will believe it when I see it. Just about every major car company in the world has diesel cars they produce and sell all over the world, but almost none of them have any desire to bring them to the U.S. for the reasons I mentioned earlier. If the government would just get out of the way perhaps the car companies could make some in roads with some clever marketing to bring more diesel cars to our roads, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. :(
 
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tourists24

Well-Known Member
If everybody drove fuel efficient vehicles, wouldn't they have to raise the taxes? I mean they have to get the revenue from somewhere.
Oh bbsam... I love you... you have hit the jackpot and are exactly on target... do your part and buy a pee shooter vehicle... gotta get that money someway
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Oh bbsam... I love you... you have hit the jackpot and are exactly on target... do your part and buy a pee shooter vehicle... gotta get that money someway

Wow. This is a first for me. I've never had another man express his love for me for all the world (of BC at least) to see.:surprised: In mock modesty I am blushing and overcome with such rapturous feeling....:happy-very: What's a "pee shooter" vehicle?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Wow. This is a first for me. I've never had another man express his love for me for all the world (of BC at least) to see.:surprised: In mock modesty I am blushing and overcome with such rapturous feeling....:happy-very: What's a "pee shooter" vehicle?

New technology that runs on urine. You pee in the tank and then "shoot" away. Gives new meaning to "piss off!"

Beer and heavy coffee drinkers can afford the big engine SUV pee shooters for obvious reasons!
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
New technology that runs on urine. You pee in the tank and then "shoot" away. Gives new meaning to "piss off!"

Beer and heavy coffee drinkers can afford the big engine SUV pee shooters for obvious reasons!

Oh. You mean urea injection to deplete harmful emissions, not to be confused with the messy stuff that comes from the same pee shooter in the case of nocturnal emissions.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Oh. You mean urea injection to deplete harmful emissions, not to be confused with the messy stuff that comes from the same pee shooter in the case of nocturnal emissions.

Oh no I don't confuse it at all. The nocturnal emissions tend to solidify and harden which can either stop up the injection system or misfire fuel stream flow!

I also find that a good preventer of such fouling is a healthy mind, positive moral focus and a reliance on ethical first principles and such system fouling just never occurs!
:wink2:
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
So finally I can get around to replying to this. Better late than never I suppose.

The VW model you are referring to was the VW Lupo. The diesel version could get up into the 70 mpg range which is far far better than any hybrid on the market today. As with most diesel vehicles it did not benefit VW to bring the Lupo to the states for many reasons. First of all the Lupo is a very small car, and VW believes that Americans want larger cars. Our diesel standards for passenger vehicles vary from state to state so the diesel engine would have to be redesigned from an emissions standpoint to meet the stringent requirements of states like Commiefornia...er I mean California. Then of course you have our ever tightening crash standards which would require a redevelopment of the body of the car making it heavier and possible get worse fuel economy as a result. All this money that would need to be dumped into redevelopment to bring it to the states where it would probably flop because of its small size makes any good intention of bringing it here a bad business decision.....

Just about every major car company in the world has diesel cars they produce and sell all over the world, but almost none of them have any desire to bring them to the U.S. for the reasons I mentioned earlier. If the government would just get out of the way perhaps the car companies could make some in roads with some clever marketing to bring more diesel cars to our roads, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. :(


If we were paying the true price of fuel at the pump ($6-$7 per gallon if you factor in the environmental costs of drilling, oil company tax breaks, military presence in Middle East etc.) then 70MPG cars such as the Lupo would be selling faster than VW could make them.

Look what happened when Toyota first came out with the Prius. You had to get on a waiting list to buy one. There is a demand for fuel-efficient cars in the USA and if fuel were priced realistically that demand would be even greater. Compact, hyper-efficient diesel cars such as the Lupo are available everywhere in the world except for here, and our own government is to blame for rigging the emissions standards to make these types of cars impossible to produce or import.
For some bizarre reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to commute to work in an 7MPG Humvee or a Navigator, but we cant drive a Lupo that gets ten times the fuel mileage because it "pollutes" too much.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
Ms Jones drives a Prius, but she really likes the car it wasn't just about the mileage (though that is a nice plus).
Pretty reliable as well.


Priuses (Prii?) are great cars, but even with all the extra hybrid technology they do not get significantly better mileage than a comparably-sized diesel car. My 2006 Jetta gets 45MPG on the freeway using 100% renewable, locally produced biodiesel. It will blow the doors off of any Prius in terms of torque or acceleration...and when it is 5 or 6 years old with 100,000 miles on it I wont be on the hook for expensive replacement batteries. Heck, it will barely be broken in!
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Well, in general the batteries appear to be good for at least 200k, that was actually one of the big things I was concerned about. I do like the diesel Jetta, a buddy of mine has one and he loves it for his long commute.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
Priuses (Prii?) are great cars, but even with all the extra hybrid technology they do not get significantly better mileage than a comparably-sized diesel car. My 2006 Jetta gets 45MPG on the freeway using 100% renewable, locally produced biodiesel. It will blow the doors off of any Prius in terms of torque or acceleration...and when it is 5 or 6 years old with 100,000 miles on it I wont be on the hook for expensive replacement batteries. Heck, it will barely be broken in!

Sober...stupid question...what does the exhaust smell like, if anything?
 
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