All Accidents Are Avoidable

Discussion in 'UPS Discussions' started by Devilsfan666, Mar 14, 2008.

  1. Devilsfan666

    Devilsfan666 Jersey Package Driver

    I just experienced my first accident recently. A kid blew a stop sign and lost the front end of his car as he pulled into oncoming traffic...that is, ME!

    Well, according to management I violated the "the methods" because according to their great wisdom I failed to make eye contact with this moron and somehow would have avoided a collision if at 35mph I gave this dope a wink of the eye as I cruised by at 35mph. No one was hurt, thank God, but the fact that management automatically blames the UPS driver is a bit disheartening has me feeling quite a bit of resentment. Any thoughts or similar experiences???
  2. DS

    DS Fenderbender

    Read this thread

    Please help..freaking out..husband fired for accident

    My husband is a package driver and has been for 5 years, with the company for 8. Good record, not a troublemaker. Wednesday he was on a dirt road, had a blind spot by woods, pulled out, and was hit. he was ticketed for careless. very small accident. the person's fender was bent in and tire flat. the other driver refused a tow, pulled out the dent, changed the tire. When the supervisor (who hates everyone) got there he fired my husband on the spot. then in the meeting the next morning they said he was fired because he had a tier 3 accident......and all of a sudden the supervisor said that after everyone left the other driver needed a tow. we think he is lying and called the person to have it towed from his house just so he can fire my husband. i'm sure the Union can find out the truth right? anyway, all the union people are telling me not to worry, he will get his job back, this supervisor has been complained on over and over ( i don't think that matters) but I can't wrap my mind around "don't worry" there is a 95% chance we will get his job back.
    at that particular center we know of 2 accidents much worse were the people were back driving the next day. the Union thinks they are trying to make an example of my husband just because of bad timing. Do you have any advise, words? does he have a good chance? the accident was SO MINOR and the people weren't even mad. i don't know where to turn or who to believe. HELP!
  3. barnyard

    barnyard KTM rider Staff Member

    I am on the safety committee in my bldg, co-chair, actually and out of the last 4 accidents, 3 were ruled unavoidable. We had 2 unavoidables last summer, also.

    Per the methods, you were probably told that you: did not clear the intersection, did not make eye contact, did not expect the unexpected. Go through the 10 point commentary and the 5 seeing habits and figure out what you could have done differently to avoid the crash. If you don't figure it out, I would expect another one sometime down the road....

    While this accident was not serious, intersection accidents are usually the most serious, the one's where people die. Take this seriously. The more serious you take this, the less time off you will get.

  4. Load Stand

    Load Stand Guest

    The UPS Defensive Driving program insists that you do everything reasonable to avoid an accident. Was it not reasonable for you to have noticed this dude was not slowing down? Did you approach the intersection, being prepared to stop, for knuckleheads like him? That is what avoidability is all about. It is not about fault - we know it was his fault - it is about Defensive Driving! It may save your life - and others - if you truly practice those methods! Do you understand now?
  5. DS

    DS Fenderbender

    In away they are misnamed.I mean if it was really an accident
    "an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents. "
    then it is not an accident at all,its ones inability to respond to the uncontrollable behavior of the vast multitude of improperly trained drivers that have never heard of the 5 seeing habits.
    I honestly believe that 99.9% of the time, accidents are avoidable.
    When a upser has one its always because the drivers sense of urgency outweighed his better judgement .I think us ups drivers are the best drivers on the road,but being human,we oftimes forget one of the things that were drilled into our heads in the heat of the moment.
  6. MR_Vengeance

    MR_Vengeance United Parcel Survivor

    next time they ask you why you can't do 150 stops and be back in 8 hours. Tell them the "experience" you learned from this accident.
  7. soberups

    soberups Pees in the brown Koolaid

    The entire system of classifying accidents as "avoidable" vs. "unavoidable" is entirely arbitrary. UPS does not even have a consistent, coherent definition of what constitutes an accident in the first place.
  8. browniehound

    browniehound Well-Known Member

    UPS can always say an accident was avoidable and you didn't follow a specific seeing habit. Think about it. You are driving down a dark road doing the speed limit of 45. All of a sudden a deer runs in front of your truck and really bangs up the front end.

    Well, based on seeing habit #4 "leave yourself an out" UPS can charge you because you didn't follow the quote "Be prepared, expect the unexpected"

    At least this my understanding of the rules.
  9. raceanoncr

    raceanoncr Well-Known Member

    I respectfully disagree here, that is the part that says that UPS does not even have a consistent, coherent definition of what constitutes an accident.

    I have in my hands (well, not right in front of me here at this moment!) an official UPS accident investigation policy. A list of questions that are to be asked by the reviewer to determine if the driver is to be charged or not charged. I don't think I'm supposed to have this but there are other things I'm not supposed to have either so.....

    Many, many questions in this policy. "Did the driver do this, this, this or this?" It's quite lenghty. If there is but one negative answer, then the driver is charged.

    Now, can each center or hub BEND questions to their advanctage? Yes. Also, can the DRIVERS bend the answers to their advanctage? Well, I won't say. You know the answer to that.

    There ARE discrepencies from center to center on how cases are judged. I'll bet many centers don't even USE this policy paper.

    It's too bad it is this way but the best way is, of course, to follow all the methods. They want you to slow down and clear every intersection, then, by God, slow down and clear every intersection! Yeah, we all know that a guy blasting down a street at 35 MPH is a pretty good clip in the city and WE'RE supposed to see him a block away and determine what he's gonna do? Well, as the company says, "Expect the unexpected". Slow down and when they ask you what takes so long, kindly explain that you are following methods. When they ride with you because you are going too slow, be sure to, again, follow all the methods. Problem solved! No?
  10. Load Stand

    Load Stand Guest

    Not true, see your safety manager...ask to see the "Judging Auto Accidents Effectively" booklet...has been around for many years...that old logic still applies to this day...what we have is a bunch of drivers and managers that lack the training and understanding of this guide...there is a definition of an accident and goes something like this...if the vehicle is involved in damage, either to our vehicle or others property, it is an accident. If there are inconsistent rulings on what is actually an accident, thank your brain drain in your district or those that are trying to save a number.

    From there you should use the guide to determine avoidability...there is a key word in the guide - that word is "reasonable"...I can see that term being used in situations like deer it reasonable to avoid all deer strikes - not likely. Afterall, it is not reasonable to drive 20 mph in a 55 mph zone to try and avoid deer strikes. But I think it is reasonable to be using your bright lights if no other traffic is oncoming, to be scanning for deer and to be driving in a lane - usually the right lane- to leave yourself an out if one comes out ...if you are driving down the highway listening to an ipod or talking on your cell phone and are not driving defensively, and did not take these reasonable steps, it may be judged as avoidable. There are lots of twists and turns to consider in fairness to our drivers, but it starts with an honest explanation as to what happened, and then it should ultimately be up to the safety manager and a little committee of those that truly understand this defensive driving program, to make the call on avoidability.

    This program is designed to reward those that drive defensively...if you do not reasonably drive defensively after all of this professional training you have been given, then it will likely be judged avoidable and you will not be rewarded in the safe driving honor plan. And, you are still subject to discipline if you have failed to follow these guidelines.
  11. browniehound

    browniehound Well-Known Member

    Good post and good advice. I'm overly cautious at intersection naturally to begin with. Add what UPS has taught me and now I'm probably annoying to other motorists. I don't care. I NEVER want to be involved in such an accident.

    Even when I'm doing 30 MPH and as I approach the light changes from red to green (not a stale green), I always slow to a speed in which I could stop some idiot would make an illegal or reckless attempt to get through the intersection. I look L,R,L continously through the intersection and then follow up with the mirrors.
  12. over9five

    over9five Moderator Staff Member

    I don't care what some stupid book says.

    If some speeding moron runs an intersection and hits you, YOUR COMPANY SHOULD STAND BEHIND YOU AND BACK YOU COMPLETELY!

    It would cost them nothing to do this.

    Instead UPS uses this "avoidable" garbage procedure just so they can needle their own employees. It's no wonder we have this HUGE "us versus them" mentality at UPS which greatly hinders our growth.
  13. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    This is just about like anything else with this company. If you get out of bed and come to work, then anything that goes wrong is the employee's fault. I have always thought it was hypocritical to be trained to work safely, and then push unrealistic production numbers and long hours that contribute to us making mistakes. I'm not knocking the Safety Training, its just we are taught one thing, and the company does the opposite. The company has cut our Car Wash hours back so that most of our Package Cars along with windshields and mirrors seldom get washed. And I have never seen an On Car Sup fill out a DVIR Book when he is out shuttling packages.........
  14. trickpony1

    trickpony1 Well-Known Member

    May I suggest that all the PC drivers in your building bring their own paper towels and window cleaner and right after the PCM clean their windows and mirrors to promote "space and visibility" as well as safety?
    If we are to be held accountable then we have the right to equipment that is safe.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2008
  15. soberups

    soberups Pees in the brown Koolaid

    I have sat in on disciplinary hearings, and at no time have I ever heard the word "reasonable".
    I have a rural area on my route, lots of low trees and narrow driveways. From time to time I break a mirror on a branch. I write it up; automotive sticks a new piece of glass on it; life goes on. Other drivers who do the same thing get charged with an accident.
    Is it an accident when you leave tire marks in the mud of a customers driveway? Is it an accident when the back of your bumper gets chewed up from months of backing up to the same dock? Is it an accident when you break a limb off of a low hanging tree when there is nowhere else to turn around? It all depends...upon the subjective interpretation of whatever management person happens to be filling out the report and whether or not they happen to like you.
  16. If He's only been with the company 5 year's. He should do the smart thing and get out now anyway.
  17. Load Stand

    Load Stand Guest

    The company does stand behind you. They pay the bills when you are involved in any accident. Maybe you would like to work for FedEx ground and pay all of these auto liability costs your self! Maybe these auto accidents should go on your personal driving record and let it impact your own insurance rates. If you fail to reasonably drive defensively you will have a consequence. And as for this "needling" hindering growth, our costs to serve is hindering our growth, costs such as Auto Liability and Workers' Comp. If costs were lower, we could offer lower rates and get more packages from a company (Fed Ex) that does not play by the same rules!
  18. over9five

    over9five Moderator Staff Member

    A speeding moron running an intersection and hitting me would not impact my insurance rates, would it? In these kind of accidents, the person speeding through the intersection is always found at fault. By the police, by the insurance company, by the attorneys. But not by UPS!! UPS will blame their own employee (Avoidable!) even when everyone else blames the speeding moron. Just because they can. There is no other reason for it. They just want to stick it to the employee.

    Don't you see how this fosters the "us versus them" mentality? Don't you think we could kill the competition if it wasn't for this one little thing? It's certainly not "the cost to serve" that hinders us, it's the "us versus them". The only time "The company does stand behind you" is to stab you in the back!
  19. sambo

    sambo New Member

    :knockedout:That is why they are called accidents! Management refers to them as purposes!Bottom line is this:we are not allowed to make mistakes.Management is perfect and we are all just dumb truck drivers!I've got 20 more months to serve in the institution and then i walk out a free man with 28 years served. Thank the lord
  20. sambo

    sambo New Member