Another Nut With A Gun Goes On A Rampage

Tourists,

My position that he's a kook comes from his contradicting positions on the constitution. While on the surface it sounds like he knows what he's talking about while defending guns (and you must know I hate guns) and he defends the second amendment as if GOD himself ordered it, he also blatantly argues against the constitution in the same paragraph.
Well, you need to clear your head and listen to what the man is saying and not assume he is saying something different, forget your bias for a few minutes and THINK. He started a sentence with " God giv...." then stopped and redirected his thoughts to the Constitution and law. His point was, even without the constitution or any law, it is a person's right to defend themselves.

When he says that a "victim" should have the right to "shoot" the offending person, then he's argueing against himself. No where in the second amendment does it say anyone can kill anyone, it says "in defense of the state", it also does not say "for personal protection", more specifically, the use of guns in the second amendment states the use of the gun shall be against "a tyrannical goverment" not a rapist, not a burgular, not a child molester. These are things that gun owners have used to modify the second amendments meanings.
No where in his statement that he said the Second Amendment gave anyone the right to kill, just that we have the right to own and carry a firearm. I've owned firearms for many many years and have NEVER said the Second Amendment gave me the right ti shoot anyone. In fact I have heard very few that tried to use that argument, I would have corrected them if that happened.

Additionally, Ted is asking for instant justice, as in the wild wild west. What about due process? What about the presumtion of innocense? If we just settled our injustices on the streets by arming the whole society, why would we need police officers? Ted's positions are "more guns will solve crimes"
In cases as he mentioned, instant justice is about the only way to save your own life or that of a family member. When a person is caught in the act of raping a child the is no such thing as a presumption of innocence, when someone breaks into your house and come into your bedroom, they are friggen guilty. I never heard Ted say "more guns will solve crimes.

In fact, we have the most guns on the streets now of any nation and that has translated into the highest crimes rates in the world for a domesticated society. More guns isnt the answer.
Stats show, time after time, when new legislation is passed that gives law abiding citizens more self protection rights, crime in those areas decreases.

In all his examples, he solves them with a gun. Rape a woman, shoot the man, molest a child, walk in and shoot the man, steal my bike, whip out my 38 and crank off 6 rounds into the guy. Do you see the slippery slope in this argument?
Now you're turning into you canuck buddy, making crap up. TN, never mentions a bike in his statement. In fact when he mentioned the .38 and 6 rounds in the chest he was speaking of an actual event when a parolee beat a woman to near death with a whiskey bottle while her grand child watched. The slippery slope I see is giving criminals free reign to commit more crimes against innocent people without fear of having to pay for their actions.

Eventually, we would shoot people for stealing the paper off our lawns or for looking at us the wrong way.
Evidently you care more for your paper than I do. This is a ridiculous assumption based on nothing.

More guns is NEVER going to be the answer. Just look at school shootings, why in the history of this country have school shootings only accelerated after 1980 along with the overjustification for guns in republican party politics?

Since the republicans made this issue a political hot button in each campaign, more mass shootings have taken place each year. In schools , in restaurants and in the workplace. Only since it became a focus for votes has gun violence spiked in the country to a level where its unsafe in many places.
I would like to see some proof that any school shooting had a damn thing to do with any justification of gun from the republican party. Yes, in some areas there has been increases in gun violence in the last 30 years or so. To draw a direct line from that to the republican stance on gun ownership is absurd. In that same 30 years, nearly every category of crime has increased as has the population in every income bracket. None of which can be proven a sole cause of gun violence.

Personally, I find there are too many people with guns that shouldnt have them. True, there are sportsman whose guns are used for competition and I support that, and there are those that truly go out in the woods and kill an innocent animal and hopefully eat them but moreover, most gun owners are just plain wierdos who stockpile weapons for the great domestic apocolypse that they are told is coming.
I do shoot target from time to time, mainly to make sure the sights on the guns haven't gotten out of proper settings. I do hunt game animals, but only the ones that I will eat the meat from. Hunting game animals has nothing to do with innocence or guilt, that's just laughable. In some areas of Texas, more deer die from starvation than from hunting because of bag limits being too small and not enough hunters. Where do you get the justification is stating that most gun owners are weirdos who stockpile weapons for any reason, or are you making crap up again? The apocalypse ? HAHAHAHA. Now that's funny.

In inner cities (where i grew up) guns are everywhere. People there shoot each other just for walking down the wrong street. The percentage of homes with guns in the inner cities far exceeds where I live today and by comparison, I live in a crime free zone. The inner city however, with all the guns available and using Ted Nugents theory, is the most violent place to live.
Inner city, gangs, drugs, prostitution and countless other crimes all add to the killings in those areas(whether by gun or some other means). Being from the inner city you should understand that better than anyone.


I prefer to live in an area where a gun isnt needed.
I bet most of the people in the inner city would prefer that too, you need to ask some of them to move in with you.

Peace.
disingenuous .
 
I dont know where you all live that guns are needed because you all live in areas constantly under threat, but ive been in my town since 1992 and we make the top 3 list of safest cities every year. The concept that "i would use my gun in self defense if an intruder came into my home" sounds great, but if you are following the law, your guns would be locked into a safe, separated from the ammo and with trigger locks.
Not where I live. The only laws we have along those lines are in there is a child living in the residence.

By they time you turned on the lights, entered the combination, unlocked the triggers, loaded the ammo and gathered your thoughts, you would be looking at begging for your life anyways. After that, you probably would be looking down the end of the barrel of your own gun.
How would I be looking down the barrel of my own gun if it's locked up in the safe with a trigger lock installed?

I have no problem if you want a gun for protection, I have a problem with stockpiles of guns. I know plenty of people who own more guns than they do knives and forks. These types usually use the guns on themselves.
Yea, need some proof of that claim too.

I have a problem with anyone suggesting instant justice and I definitely have a problem with anyone suggesting that crime will go down because people are armed. This just isnt the case. This country is armed to the teeth and violent crime keeps increasing.
Again, many other criteria are increasing also. Could be there is a correlation other than guns, ya think?

One person tried to make it about drugs and ethnicity but crime among white kids is just as high. Mass School shootings are typically white kids. One on one shootings are typically minority based. Why the difference? Why do white kids feel the need to mass kill having every priviledge known to man, and minorities tend to shoot only an intended target?
Finally you typed something that makes sense and it was probably an accident. The real question to mass killings such a Columbine is not where or how did they get the guns but WHY do they feel the need, urge and/or the justification to commit such a atrocity on fellow students? What happened to these kids that make them WANT to kill other kids.

There are many people in this country who are not in the right mind to possess a weapon of any kind. But to suggest that we should increase the number of guns on our streets and neighborhoods to protect ourselves is only making the problem worse.
How is it making anything worse? Or did it just sound good in your head.

As I said, i am no fan of guns and I do support those who sport shoot or hunt to eat, but I dont support having guns in the home because you are told to fear your fellow citizen.
I don't have to be told to fear my fellow citizen and I don't fear them. The vast majority of my fellow citizens are nothing to be afraid of, however there are people out there that we need to protect ourselves from, whether you like it or not.

Peace.
disingenuous
The overwhelming fact is, if you could magically have all firearms disappear from the earth today, sometime tonight a person will be beaten, stabbed or strangled to death/ Possibly becuase they didn't have a gun to defend themselves with.
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
"...most gun owners are just plain wierdos who stockpile weapons for the great domestic apocolypse that they are told is coming."

There's a kooky statement.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
TOS, you're ready to become Canadian, or even European.

And, hopefully you do make the move one day, to enjoy more peace and freedom.

Keep it up :)
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
More guns is NEVER going to be the answer. Just look at school shootings, why in the history of this country have school shootings only accelerated after 1980 along with the overjustification for guns in republican party politics?

Since the republicans made this issue a political hot button in each campaign, more mass shootings have taken place each year. In schools , in restaurants and in the workplace. Only since it became a focus for votes has gun violence spiked in the country to a level where its unsafe in many places.

Ahh yes, blaming the school shootings on the "easy availability of guns..."

My dad was on his high school's smallbore rifle team in the late 1950's. He would ride the bus to school with his rifle and ammo. The members of the team would bring their rifles to the principals office and leave them in the closet until after school, when they would take them on the activity bus to the range where the competition was being held. During hunting season, it was routine to see students park their cars or pickup trucks on school property with their hunting rifles plainly visible. They would go hunting after class before it got dark. Guns were everywhere and no one made a big deal about them at all.

Practically speaking, there was no "gun control" at all prior to the late 1960's. You could buy guns at hardware stores, department stores (Sears, JC Penney and Woolworths all had their own brands of guns) flea markets or gas stations. You could order them thru the mail with no background checks.

It was far easier for a minor to obtain a gun back then than it is now. Thats the reality. So if you want to "blame" someone or something for the school shootings...blame our dysfunctional society. Blame the media that gives publicity to these basket cases. Blame the Internet. Blame the Hollywood movie industry that glorifies violence. Blame violent video games. Blame gangs. Blame the "war on drugs" that causes more violence than it can ever hope to prevent. Blame the "gun free zones" in schools that do nothing but herd unarmed victims into a confined area for easier slaughter by those who have no intention of obeying the law in the first place. A reasonable person could "blame" a lot of things.....but it is ignorant and factually incorrect to blame the "easy availability of guns" for school shootings.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
.
...most gun owners are just plain wierdos who stockpile weapons for the great domestic apocolypse that they are told is coming..

Wow. I guess ignorant stereotypes arent limited to the right-wingers.

Do you also believe that African Americans all love watermelon, or that gay men are all effeminate, or that all Hispanics are in this country illegally?

What personal experience do you have with gun owners that supports your contention that most of us are "wierdos who stockpile weapons for the apocolypse? How many gun owners do you personally know well enough to feel justified in making that apallingly ignorant and bigoted statement?
 

klein

Für Meno :)
In all due defence of TOS : A lot of gun owners are Wierdos !!
How else can you explain once you enter Alaska by land, either thru the Yukon, or British Columbia, the likelyhood of being shot to death goes up nearly 100 fold.
That also counts for Albertans heading south into bording State Montana.

If guns made these places so much safer, then why is it, by just crossing the border, it's over 10 times safer to live ? (10 times less the homicide rate).
Alaska is a "right to carry" State. Therfor that State should be safer then anywhere else in North America, right ?
Nope, the opposite, 2nd highest State for gun related deaths !

So, if it's not Wierdos, then what is the problem ?
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
Wow. I guess ignorant stereotypes arent limited to the right-wingers.

Do you also believe that African Americans all love watermelon, or that gay men are all effeminate, or that all Hispanics are in this country illegally?

What personal experience do you have with gun owners that supports your contention that most of us are "wierdos who stockpile weapons for the apocolypse? How many gun owners do you personally know well enough to feel justified in making that apallingly ignorant and bigoted statement?

Sober,

First of all, I labeled no one. If you included yourself into one segment of my post, then you attributed yourself to that particular segment.

I know plenty of sport shooters and in fact, one of my best friends runs a gun repair business. In my area, there are NO hunters as there is NO place to hunt.

Of all the people that I know with guns, the majority have stockpiles of handguns and rifles and shotguns. The constant argument coming from them is the same as I have heard on this board.

Self protection. Even in a town like mine where you never hear of a burgulary where people were awakened by an intruder, those with guns make the same claim that they would shoot the intruder.

I even have a UPS on road supervisor who makes claim that he has a gun at every window, at every door, under his pillow and in his kitchen. We make fun of him constantly for his over reaction to self defense.

Why live in that kind of fear? Who is he afraid of? Why not just move to a place where this kind of fear doesnt exist?

If I had to live in a place where I had to "plan" on fighting an intruder with a gun because where I lived was a commonplace for this type of activity, I would simply pick up my family and move to a safer neighborhood.

As I have said many times, I DONT LIVE IN FEAR. I wont pretend to defend myself with guns so in the event that a criminal will choose my home to rob I will be prepared.

Prevention would be my first choice. Alarms, locks and home security would be my first priority. This is a wiser investment versus a gun battle.

If I had to live in a bunker to feel safe, then am I really safe?

The concept that I would be safer because I have guns in my home is something I reject.

Living in fear isnt something I accept as a lifestyle. I reject that concept.

As I said, if you want guns for sport shooting or to hunt for something to eat then I support the use. If you want guns because you chose to live in an area where you feel unsafe, and you are anticipating an epic gun battle with an intruder then you might be facing a situation like this:


http://kissmeimabbw.newsvine.com/_n...ce-whittier-man-mistakenly-shoots-kills-niece

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...istakenly-shoots-wife-during-sex-1053524.html

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/breaking/6539905.html

These are the more common types of gun incidents rather than "epic gun" battles with intruders.

I guarantee you that in each of these cases, not one of them would qualify mentally to own a gun, yet they have them .....for protection.

Where i am, I have laughed at those I know personally when they give me the business about protection.. We live in a gated community with roving guards on patrol in cars.

Almost every home here as a security system on the grounds so stockpiling guns for as protection is ridiculous at best.

But heck, if you all live in places where this is a necessary part of your lives (to live in constant fear) then who am I to stop you.

We all chose where we live.

Peace.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
I live in SoCal....about as far as you can go south in Orange County. Our area is heavily populated. Funny, on either side of my house lives hunters.
Hunters don't necessarily live where they hunt. The one guy has a trailer in a desolate area for duck hunting.
To say "there are NO hunters" is a blanket statement that you really don't have knowledge of.........learning from Klein, I see.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Begs to question though TOS. What would you do if your are attacked or your life gets put on the line. I understand you dont live in fear, but there is a real chance that at some point you may have to defend yourself. You just let the perp have his/her way?
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Begs to question though TOS. What would you do if your are attacked or your life gets put on the line. I understand you dont live in fear, but there is a real chance that at some point you may have to defend yourself. You just let the perp have his/her way?

Same as you would do if you had to live in another country, or if your gun rights were taken away, because of some kind of criminal conviction.
Or, if you get really ill, or paralized, and can't lift a finger.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Begs to question though TOS. What would you do if your are attacked or your life gets put on the line. I understand you dont live in fear, but there is a real chance that at some point you may have to defend yourself. You just let the perp have his/her way?

Did you ever read once where he (TOS) boldly stated he owned "no guns" or had no intent of ever owning any? I would tend to agree in principle with what he said and whether I own guns or not is irrelevant. I have no problem in gun ownership, even owning a fully automatic weapon if one so chooses. I even believe if one wanted to build one's self a tank, he should be able to do so but the point TOS made about continuing to live in an area where conflict could result and your only answer is to acquire more guns even taking a purely economic approach makes no sense, is not sustainable and not the best allocation of resources.

The market economy involves peaceful cooperation. It bursts asunder when the citizens turn into warriors and, instead of exchanging commodities and services, fight one another.
from Austrian Economic Great Ludwig Von Mises, Human Action, page 817
 
In all due defence of TOS : A lot of gun owners are Wierdos !!

That`s like saying all Canadians are candy carrying , discount loving, weirdos.

How else can you explain once you enter Alaska by land, either thru the Yukon, or British Columbia, the likelyhood of being shot to death goes up nearly 100 fold.
That also counts for Albertans heading south into bording State Montana.

Maybe because we`re trying to keep you out of the country.

If guns made these places so much safer, then why is it, by just crossing the border, it's over 10 times safer to live ? (10 times less the homicide rate).
Alaska is a "right to carry" State. Therfor that State should be safer then anywhere else in North America, right ?
Nope, the opposite, 2nd highest State for gun related deaths !

It`s also pretty high on the list for alcoholism and poverty,along with low law enforcement per resident ratio, maybe a factor?

So, if it's not Wierdos, then what is the problem ?

Thats what we think when we read your posts.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Same as you would do if you had to live in another country, or if your gun rights were taken away, because of some kind of criminal conviction.
Or, if you get really ill, or paralized, and can't lift a finger.
I guess you mean you would just be at their mercy. Not me thank you. If you want to live that way then that is fine, but dont try to force me too also. I like the idea of having a chance, not to be violent but I will not be a willing victim. One of us will go down. You stay put and enjoy but if you want to force me to live your way then we have a problem
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Did you ever read once where he (TOS) boldly stated he owned "no guns" or had no intent of ever owning any? I would tend to agree in principle with what he said and whether I own guns or not is irrelevant. I have no problem in gun ownership, even owning a fully automatic weapon if one so chooses. I even believe if one wanted to build one's self a tank, he should be able to do so but the point TOS made about continuing to live in an area where conflict could result and your only answer is to acquire more guns even taking a purely economic approach makes no sense, is not sustainable and not the best allocation of resources.
I understand that WK, but even individuals in the safest of places can be placed in my scenario, even if the risk is less. I wont go back to read if there are posts that say TOS owns a gun or not, but I have my doubts about it. My post was up simply to try and understand the mindset on my hypothetical.
 
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