Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by teamsterdan, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. teamsterdan

    teamsterdan Member

    why does this organization not run a viable candidate for union boss......I'm guessing A. there is no "real" viable person willing and available.... B. it's concerned that our election results are not valid....C. APWA's slogan "all hat and no cattle" cannot be violated......
  2. nospinzone

    nospinzone New Member

    Good question....
    APWA does not run a viable candidate for the Teamsters Presidency because the interests of the UPS employee are diluted by the sprawling general interests of the Teamsters. APWA wishes to represent only UPS employees and doesnt give a rats ass about Yellow, DHL, or Carhaulers. So APWA leadership would see it as a waste of time to run for any office in the Teamsters because then they would be forced to serve the interest of these other employees instead of the interests of UPS employees. Reducing these liabilities allows the leadership of a UPS only union to focus on ONLY UPS related topics.....ie... the president and vice president can spend all of their time focusing on making Eskews life hell until the UPS employee gets what their honest 40hrs of work deserve.
  3. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member


    Do you enjoy the fact that 60% of the money UPS gives to the Teamsters for your pension goes in somebody else's pocket? I joined the IBT in '78, and believe me, if I had just a few years in, I would look for something better than the Teamsters. How many times do you have to be crapped on before you get out of the way? Sorry to be so blunt, I have worked for 30 years and can't retire for 14 more, I am in Central States Pension.
  4. wildgoose

    wildgoose WILDGOOSE

    Multi employer pensions are made so the strong employers cover for the weak or non existent ones ! The day of Teamsters looking out for everybody has definately gone to the way side. The service is substandard and the quality of the pension and healthcare is on the slide everyday we don`t correct this. Hoffa is on the way out or only to manage a small faction of the current large total of workers. Its apparent in Indiana that the UPS FREIGHT do not seek their services. I have 25 years this year and the future looks bleak to say the least. The people that we put our trust in have screwed it up and thats why we have to pursue alternative resources. The government knows they can`t solve Hoffa`s mismanagement and thats why reform won`t work or even be considered. Those that think their division is solid well oneday they will be suprised when Hoffa and his cronnies pull the carpet out from under them and its just a matter of time ! Taxation without Representation have you forgot about that !!!!!!!!! Who lives better than your BA ? Not you thats for sure !
  5. wildgoose

    wildgoose WILDGOOSE

    How true Scratchking !!!!!!!
  6. Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  7. teamsterdan

    teamsterdan Member

  8. 30andout

    30andout New Member

  9. wildgoose

    wildgoose WILDGOOSE

    Here we go again TeamsterDan. Leedham wants reform and the government does not care obviously.That process is too time consuming and it more than likely won`t result in a fix. Hoffa is dwindling our account down as time runs on. The company loves to see Hoffa swinging from a rope with no possiblity of Fixin the Central States delema. Its time to trim the "Fat" and you know who the fat is ! The only resolution is to be UPS only pension and healthcare. It makes sense with more of the money going to the fund and less money in maintaining a UPS managed account by a independent company. We will know the financials when we ask for them as apposed to what the union won`t disclose. Better insurance for a lesser price ? Go figure. When you retire at an age that you can still able walk with your grand children !!!!!!!! Work without being treated like your a red headed adopted child ( No job restrictions ) Most everyone i know started at 21 or 22 and they don`t want to stay till there 62. I myself would love to collect and go work maybe 4 days a week at a easier pace. We were once 93% funded and that was great now who knows but its obviously a lot less or they wouldn`t be in the redcution mode ? We are still paying more money for less services !!!!!!!!
  10. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Actually your question is a good one and very valid but there is also a good reason that APWA is not and can't run a slate in the IBT. First and foremost APWA is solely focused on UPSers and nothing else. Whether you believe in their ideas or not, they see what is being given over to the IBT on our behalf and what we get in return the difference is not to their liking and many UPSers agree including myself. If they ran an IBT slate, this would mean they also would have to represent the interests of Yellow Freight, Roadway, some DHL (old Airborne) etc. etc. and they have no interest whatso ever in those companies or their futures. In fact, if I had to guess, APWA would like to see those companies go away or at best become a shell of themselves.

    In our current position with the IBT, for this to happen would be destructive to some of our own self interrests as in the pension fund as union members. However, in order to protect our fund interest we must protect these companies thereby denying ourselves (as UPS employees) of other job opportunities in the wake if these companies getting smaller and the potential of that business coming to UPS. So you see, we are placed in a position of having in some measure to support and defend our own competition in order to maintain certain benefits, etc. and at the same time deny ourselves probably some monetary and job opportunity benefits. Also you can bet the union also conducts itself with regard to UPS and it's business potentials with the fact that they also represent the interests of UPS' competitors.

    So much is made of the fact that UPS doesn't like the IBT and I'm sure on many fronts that is true but let me give you another perspective to consider. UPS over the many years has built a non-union segment and many have alledged that at some point UPS will use this to drive out the union. I don't deny that potential because if in their shoes I'd do the same after what happened in 97' but let me also give you something else to consider about keeping this side of UPS non-union. So much is made of how union labor drives down company profits and for a company who lacks the skill or abilities this is true. I often think of the best way to describe it as lazy management likes non union conditions. At UPS however, I always find it of interest that our profit margins (indicates a more profitable company that has better control over its costs compared to its competitors) is higher for UPS (a union employer) verses FedEx (a non-union employer). Currently according to Yahoo UPS is at 8% plus and FDX at 5% plus and UPS does this with a union workforce. Now to me this flies in the face of conventional wisdom but it's a fact. Now that being the case, why would UPS want to keep part of it's segment non-union? Well the obvious answers are still true but here's one I think most people don't want to discuss. If the Teamsters did organize all of UPS, then UPS would be hand tied in how it broadened it's business because the IBT would have to protect it's other members in the form of UPS competitors at the same time. Right now there is no conditions other than gov't regulatory and business concerns so they are free to adapt.

    With APWA or some other form of UPS only union, it would be in the best interest of that union to do whatever it took to encourage and help UPS expand because in that expansion the union would directly benefit and the UPS members would benefit with a growing host of job opportunities. So you see, there's a whole lot more here at stake than just the pension and usual glossy print that we all (including myself here)tend to focus on when we discuss the IBT and APWA or other union options. I also think it ironic that we do have some UPSers covered by other unions, I speak of the machinist union here, and from what I hear, their pensions are in great shape and for the most part things are going well. I'm sure it's not a pure lovefest but I could see where the Machinist union would care less that UPS wants to open into a market segment that competes with say Yellow Frieght for example because the reality it doesn't adversely effect them and in the future they may even benefit. Same can't be said for the IBT.

    I also think part of the logic of barring work after retirement has as much to do with protecting these other companies as it does anything else but you'll never hear them utter or admit this. Think about that one folks!

    T-Dan, hope that helps explain some of my thinking on this issue. Take care.
  11. 3brownstars

    3brownstars Member

    Very well said my friend.
  12. mittam

    mittam Member

    very good post, we need voices like you to help with the spreading of the APWA.
  13. shakyshifter

    shakyshifter New Member

    The truth is that APWA leadership and much of their support comes from SCABS. When you set on the outside you cannot see the inside. It will be a cold day in H--- when a Scab and it's friends speak for me. THey even put on their own web site how to get out of the Union.

    What kind of Union is that? A company Union!!!!
  14. shakyshifter

    shakyshifter New Member

    WKMAC - Barring work after retirement is not a mystery. The language has been in the Plan since the inception of the plan. It was there because the plan was not intended to be your only retirement vehicle but to be a support for your retirement when you reached retirement age. The Actuaries that figure how many people are in, how many people will keep working etc and how many years, figured in that 'bar on working" in their numbers of people that would not retire.

    Then we all started making a political issue out of 25 and out, and then as you know, many more people left early, people lived longer and the fund grew smaller after the Stock Market Disaster of 2001.02. and 03. Through out all of that, the rules for working did not change. The only thing that happened internally in the fund was more companies going out of business, monthly retirements going from 140 months to 214 months on average and health care skyrocketing.

    It would be just like your home. You keep making your UPS raises, and it should keep up..then exteraneously there is $3.00 gas, low interest rates on saving, housing taxes going up, and then maybe you get a couple more mouths to feed. You did nothing wrong in your planning, you just had some things happen to you that you did not plan for.

    I know lots of guys in my center that lost their A--- in the same years the plan did. They had the companies old Thrift plan in an IRA or 401K and lost nearly or in excess of half of it according to some.

    The real problem we have a UPSers is that we do not want to spend our own time thinking. We would rather just latch on to someone to blame.
  15. shakyshifter

    shakyshifter New Member

    Interesting, Scratch king. You have worked for 30 years, have to work for 14 more. If retiring at 65 minus 14 years you would be 51. If you wanted to retire at 55 you would be 41 today.

    If you are 41 and you have already worked in the plan for 30 years, you must have started when you were 11. If you are 51, you started when you were 21.

    If you have 30 years (all monies prior to Jan 1, '04 were protected and your earnings since will zero each other out, so you would get close to the 3K you planned on) and are 62., there has been about $135,000 paid in on your behalf. If you retire and draw 44 months worth of pension that is all paid back. Now if you are truly 51 and would go now, you would receive an estimated roughly 250 monts or 6 times your money back, plus health and welfare payments for that time. Not a bad investment for 135K..Do the math.

    I too know guys that want to retire early but they want to keep on working. The plan was never designed for a full retirement bonus plan. It was designed as supplemental. We have just tried to modify it to suit our own lives.

    I for one would rather the plan make changes as a result of the Economic Disaster of the early 2000, 01 and 02..years that not make changes and see it all go in the tank.

    If you have 14 more years to go, planning is an impossibility as you know. All you have to do is read the papers where the Congress passed legislation that we fought against, and Bush is unhappy that it did not go far enough in his book.

    We are fighting the enemy and the enemy is us. We need to get involved the Politics before they legislate us out of business.
  16. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    I am 48, started in '75 PT at age 17, went FT in '84, 31 years in this October. Yes, I worked many of my early years hearing 25 and 30 years and you can retire. Be nice to retire now, but I actually like to work and have a few good years left in me. I realize that a Pension is only supplemental income, but what really gets my goat is that you have all different kinds of Pension Plans that UPSers are in all overthis country.UPS gives the same amount of money for each employee to these Plans. Mine is the bottom of the barrel, $2550.00 a month from Central States at age 62 if you are married. A mechanic in the IAM gets up to $9860.00 a month. That's a hell of a lot of difference to me. I don't think that the APWA would help me much in my situation, but I get sick of the IBT and its Pension Funds screwing over UPS employees to make up for their shortcomings from other companies lack of contributions or the Teamsters poor job of organizing new members.
  17. jersey feeder

    jersey feeder New Member

  18. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    "For those who just hate to see a penny of "their" money help any other human being -- stop putting money in the church collection plate -- and stop paying your taxes. Seriously our pension plan pays according to contribution levels -- so really no one "suffers" to save another.

    I'm an old dog ....... still learning new tricks ....... but also wary of tricky newcomers :-). I suppose if I had a gripe with my Local or the IBT I might entertain some different avenue -- but I do not. Our Local just awarded eight $1000 scholarships to members kids -- plus one of them also won a James R. Hoffa scholarship."

    When I was hired and eventually joined the union I guess HR and IBT forgot to tell me that my monthly pension contributions were actually charity for others to use at other companys and that if I was lucky I might actually get to retire some day if there was anything left. It's a sign of the times when our pension is compared to a church offering plate and paying taxes. Not that there is anything wrong with church offering or any other charity or paying taxes but our pension IS NOT the same as such things. It is comparing apples to oranges.
  19. jersey feeder

    jersey feeder New Member

    When UPS members first joined many of these plans we were the little company -- small group -- and the freight companies were putting in the bulk of the monies. Now it is our turn for a bit -- but the same ones who benefited from those contributions back then -- suddenly have amnesia.

    You're right our pension is not like paying taxes -- you won't ever see a penny of that money -- and you have minimal control over where it goes. Oh and nope it's not like the collection plate -- that money is freely given from your pocket -- not someone else's (UPS) pocket.

    How many think UPS (or any company) would provide the pay and benefits we have -- WITH JOB PROTECTIONS -- out of the goodness of their hearts. Business does not have a heart -- only a wallet.

    I like my job -- like UPS as a company -- but how many of you would have been cast aside long before you got "old" enough to collect a pension -- without the Teamsters -- you lose a step -- see ya.

    It's a kidding remark around our way but we're known to say that every employee with more than 15 years -- has been fired at least once.
  20. shakyshifter

    shakyshifter New Member

    Scratch king....The Fund is not responsible for your WIFES cut of your pension. What some of the guys are doing is getting a term life insurance policy that is a lot cheaper than the "Spousal Survival" cut and still protects momma if you go first.

    The other thing is if you are going to keep working you are earning more for your pension today than you were before the Changes on Jan 04. As each year the contribution level goes up, so does your pension. The contribution levels have surpassed any effect the short years of 6% off under 62 would effect. I have indeed heard that some IAM get in the 4K range but I find it hard to believe they are in the 9K range because the Pension cannot exceed your earnings because of Erisa restrictions. I am aware of guys that worked at a rate less than UPS but at the same pension levels as UPS and were not able to take all of it.

    What I am tired of is that we have people on this board that the Teamsters have helped in hundreds of ways in the time you have been at ups>> They want too blame Hoffa, Central States, and others when the blame belongs in Washington DC on Capitol Hill. We better wake up or we will be legislated out of business while we fight amongst ourselves and we will all be trying to go to work for WalMart cause it is easier work than UPS and will pay the same if BIG BUSINESS has its way. We take our wages now. Compare them to anyone doing blue collar work. Do what we do in our center, start your own 401 K if you think investing is easy. We make the money, but if we allow these MOONSHINE SELLERS to intervene and weaken us, we will not make the money.

    Look back at how things when you started with UPS and how much better everything is. Is it yet perfect? Will it ever be? NO but I cannot imagine working for any but a couple of managers I have had in 30 years, without the Teamsters. This no power money scheme that these two 391 Hucksters cooked up will erase all the gains we made in two months if we were stupid enough to allow them to negotiate for us.

    They say no one has to belong to the UNION. No Strike fund is needed. They have a NO CONFLICT agreement with UPS because they are using a UPS attorney.... They Lie every single issue of their newsletter and their own NC area fellow workers call them liars and theives.