Business and 21st Century: UNION not needed

[Backlasher]

Hmm. I agree with all your posts and guess you are correct. Management would work us like slaves; what a shame really.

Few questions: 1. How much does UPS payout in grievances annually (estimated)?
2. Why are the so many grievances filed? What are examples of when an employee should/did file a grievance? And consequently, if its a recurrent pattern (topic of grievances filed), shouldn't management be able to 'FIX' that sort of problem??

I guess I am trying to find out, if there is a way to stop employees from filing grievances that costs UPS and in turn employees/customers hard earned money. What can management do to help this situation??

Lastly, and I just need to get this of my not very hairy chest, I feel pity for MOST PT Supervisors in my Hub; here is why: They always 'hunt' someone down to go home early. Granted they ask, however, it is a persistent and very annoying phenomena that happens EACH day. Furthermore, the PT Sups asks you this JUST when you get into the building. And this is for all PT Sups out there: Chances are that when I just got to work, I do not want to leave early, or I should say think about leaving work. Ask me right before break, or 10 minutes after break, I guarantee you will ALWAYS find a 'victim'.

Ok, that was it, gotta get ready for work tonight

I have the answer 2 that 1. It's not really as complicated as u would think either.
We have certain guidelines that has a simple idea in mind. To protect the work force. The IDEA is this, a fair days work for a far day's pay, and job security for those employed by said company. If management was to follow the guidelines than there would be no grievence. Same as our responsability is to do our jobs as productive and little error as possable or we get written up.

The idea is to keep the company accountable just as we are held accountable.

These guidelines have been in agreed on by both said parties throughout all past and present contracts.

The basic grievinces are these:
Over 9.5 because like all peoples, we want a fair days pay but also want a fair time allowance to be home with our families.
Stealing work. It's the idea that managers are to manage and not do the work of an hourly, especially when there are so many of us hourly with insufficient hours work or are on lay off.

Does this sound unreasonable.

To sum things up we union workers at UPS are proudly the most productive, intelligent, and hard working force on this planet and don't deserve criticism over the FACT THAT WE ARE UNION. That is a fact that u cannot argue against. Our pay is HI, but ups gets every penny they can out of us and the fact that we are the only transport in this quarter to claim a decent profit while all others are at record losses proves just that.

Management would piledge us without the union and bring us down to the fast food chain with a revolving door on all four sides of each center.

It's sad really cause there is a real need for the union in AMERICA in many area's to protect the worker. The problem was many workers of those fields toke that power for granted and gave the union worker that bad lazy image but believe me. That worker is not many at UPS.

The KEY is to keep both parties held accountable for their actions, not just management or workers but both.

The desolve of the union force in the USA is #1 reason to blame for the LOW paying overworked jobs that are left and also part to blame for the export of these jobs outsourced to so many 3rd class countries.

Either you R management probing at this idea or are on the outside lookin in without a clue. In either case leave the same way you come in.

 

[rocket man]

are you a union member?

 

[anonymous6]

If you want to know what UPS would be like to work for without union representation, just look at the way that the lower and mid-level management people are treated. They took a pay freeze, a benefit cut, and loss of 401K match; meanwhile, CEO Scott Davis writes himself a $5 million dollar per year pay increase.

I worked for non union companies for 25 years before UPS. There is no contest. We need the union.

go ahead and go work for a non union company for a year before putting down the union.


edited ( not replying to soberups post ) just the anti union posts

 

[JaxUPSHub]

If management was to follow the guidelines than there would be no grievence.

I agree

The basic grievinces are these:
Stealing work. It's the idea that managers are to manage and not do the work of an hourly, especially when there are so many of us hourly with insufficient hours work or are on lay off.

Thats happening in our Hub all the time

Either you R management probing at this idea or are on the outside lookin in without a clue.

I'm a new employee born in the early 80's, I have had NO experiences with Unions, that is why I asked those questions. Thanks for your insights.

In either case leave the same way you come in.

Not cool, why would I leave? Have I offended anyone by asking those questions? I'm sorry I am trying to find out more about the company I work for. Jeeez. Some people on this board need to take a CHILL PILL.

Since I am a new hire, I have yet to join the Union. I never had any classroom training, where I was told a Union Rep will approach you, never happened. I emailed our local Union, and their Mailbox is full....Figure.

When I come to work, I have no time finding a steward, and vice versa I am sure. The idea of having initiation fees taking out, in addition to regular Union fees lifelong, does not sound to appealing. That is the reason I want to make the right decision. However, based on my personal experience so far, I 100% will join the Union....as soon as I get in contact with a Union Steward, which seems impossible at my Hub.

 

[tieguy]

What about the hours that we would be working. Most days it's around 10 already. Without the 9.5 language it would be 12hrs everyday. No Union... NO WAY... They already treat us like garbage. They don't honor the contract they already agreed to. Imagine what it would be like without a union.

maybe not. We would probably have more part time drivers without the union. It would still be cost effective to put the full time driver out there with a full car but I think we would use more part time drivers to supplement.

 

[tieguy]

You dont have to terminate someone to get rid of them...without seniority, 8 hr gurantee or bidding rights you could simply lay them off, starve them for hours or put them on the worst route in the building until they were crippled and no longer able to work.

You would still have to put the same number of drivers out there as now. I personally think your paid days would be better because UPS would use more part time ground drivers. Thats something the union does not want to touch.

As far as lawsuits go...who really has more power, the company or a terminated employee who isnt getting a paycheck and who must pay for an attorney out of his own pocket?

you have enough lawyers out there willing to take a case contingent on winning. The annoyance value alone can probably earn them a quick cash settlement.

And when you say you "fire" more people due to the union, the important number is not how many are "fired", but how many of those terminations are actually upheld.

With no union, fired means fired.

My point would be that there would be a lot less people getting fired without the union. The article 7 discharge has now become an extra form of discipline between the suspension and a real discharge. Its a tool to discpline that would not be used if we actually knew you would be gone.

I recently reduced two notice of discharges to warning letters. My boss wanted to tell a couple of drivers they were discharged to "send a message". We would not have sent that message if we knew those drivers would actually be discharged and would not return. Training a feeder driver is an expense proposition and we would not fire them as frequently if we knew we would have to replace them. Thank the union for the extra discharges.

 

[soberups]

Shouldn't the company be able to say "ok look were sorry but your not going to be phyiscally able to do this job"?

They are able to say that.

During the preseniority period, the employee must be able to demonstrate that he/she is physically and mentally capable of doing the job, and the company is free to terminate the employement of this person if they are unable to.

 

[soberups]

maybe not. We would probably have more part time drivers without the union. It would still be cost effective to put the full time driver out there with a full car but I think we would use more part time drivers to supplement.

Wrong.

We currently have language allowing the 2 least senior employees to be dispatched with a 4 hr gurantee. The company begged for this language for years, citing a need for "flexibility". Now that they have it...they refuse to use it. Apparently, some bean-counter didnt want to pay for one extra drive to-from the delivery area. It is still deemed to be more cost-effective to eliminate routes and work those who remain as many hours as possible.

 

[Solidarity413]

Man I just got back from Chicago and I missed this conversation?!! What?!

 

[Dustyroads]

I worked for three years for a non-union small package delivery company before being hired by UPS 30 years ago. There is no comparison. Not only do the workers need the union, but management (UPS) needs the Teamsters as well. The Teamsters national contract ensures the company uninterrupted service throughout the country, it gives both parties a very defined written agreement as to both parties' responsibilities, obligations and compensation. Do you know of any non-union company that has as good of health insurance plan as UPS workers do? Do you know of any non-union trucking firm that pays any of their drivers what UPS drivers make?

Tie, it amuses me when you say that you wouldn't be discharging so many people if you really knew that they would be discharged. I think that's a poor management philosophy. In most cases it relegates management's authority to a position of the paper tiger. Simply you disempower management by entering into battles that you secretly intend to lose. And, you lose respect of your workers.

 

[Catatonic]

Simply you disempower management by entering into battles that you secretly intend to lose. And, you lose respect of your workers.

Exactly what the Union Officials and BAs want .. It is what it is.

 

[Catatonic]

Man I just got back from Chicago and I missed this conversation?!! What?!

Hypothetical question.

 

[Dustyroads]

Hoax, I've worked for 13 center managers in 30 years, and I've seen all styles of management. I'm really fortunate to work for a center manager currently that just doesn't play those little games. It's a refreshing change to respect one's manager. I will do things for him to make the operation work smoother than I ever would have for the twelve center managers before him. Our center works better, our production is better, and our morale is better. It can be done.

 

[Catatonic]

Hoax, I've worked for 13 center managers in 30 years, and I've seen all styles of management. I'm really fortunate to work for a center manager currently that just doesn't play those little games. It's a refreshing change to respect one's manager. I will do things for him to make the operation work smoother than I ever would have for the twelve center managers before him. Our center works better, our production is better, and our morale is better. It can be done.

I'm glad to see that.
I agree that it is management's job to do it right but it does wear on any individual after awhile.
I assume you are not in the Chicago area and probably not in a large multi-center building.

It's more work and responsibility for management in an extended center but also more conducive to a positive work environment you describe.

 

[Mike23]

I'm unsure if anyone here remembers working jobs that weren't union. I've been with UPS for only around a year now and worked nonunion crappy jobs for around 9 years (since I'm still a youngin many of the jobs were student jobs).

1. I recall being laid off from a comic book store (best job in the world by the way) because our manager goofed up and bit off more then he could chew. Someone with less seniority took over the job I had for less pay.

2. I worked janitorial duties at a radio shack (I don't know why radio shack needed a janitor, but what the hay!). Sales went down and I was out the door.

3. I worked security gigs for awhile and wasn't paid $5000 for two weeks work I did with one company and the government couldn't FORCE the company to pay me cash. Instead the company got a note saying, 'please give him his money' and that was all.

4. Working security at another spot I phoned in sick with food poisoning but was told to come in otherwise I wouldn't have a job the next day. Well, I was sick as a dog all night and was terminated the next day anyways for the standard nonunion reason of, 'not performing job expectations'.

Without a union all these lovely things happen on a regular basis. Yes, paying dues stinks but that dues is the only thing keeping us where we are. Think about it this way. In Canada our top wage is around $24 an hour. That's after 2.5 years. Why wouldn't the company terminate all their $24 an hour employees and give it to people for 2 years then terminate them after that for 'not performing job expectations'. I think it was our HR guy that told us it costs around $15 000 to train a new driver. If you do the math it's pretty easy to see how much they would save by doing this.

Good luck proving you were performing as required.

 

[Solidarity413]

Hypothetical question.

From my experience the hypothetical ones on here are always the ones that generate actual drama. Like this thread or your threads So wish I could've jumped into it sooner

 

[UnconTROLLed]

When I was 18-21 while going to school, I worked for a large wholesaler.

The drivers were union, but the inside hourlies were not. Two memories that were vivid:

Having to commute through the delivery drivers striking once for a few weeks. Heck, myself and a co-worker actually ran the trucks out to deliver 2 times. If they had known this I would have been harrassed much more coming and going through the picket line. This was a very good learning lesson for me though. They were not playing around!

Secondly, one time managemenet secretly told several people in the operation they were going to fire me for mispicking orders. This is apparently illegal, to spread this type of information without consulting the person you are going to fire first. Therefore it never happened, I threatened them when I found out (a) they spread these rumours and (b) it was illegal. Great part of being young and nothing-to-lose.

I must say, it was a job where there were no rules. I would work 16 hour shifts when it got busy and like it or leave it. I remember going to work some days 3pm and not leaving until 8am. There was no going home, there were no extra breaks, it was what it was. You could either do it or quit. management did not care either way.

I personally dislike the union, but then again, it serves a purpose overall. Some day in the next 5-10 years I will leave it all behind and do what I want, but until then it is coexisting with UPS and the union that is reality.

ANother thing - I find it funny when a steward says "You are a TEAMSTER first before a UPSer". At first in '02 when I started I believed that mentality. But now it is embarrasing. The Teamsters have no interest in YOU. They have interest in the money going into their pocket, much like everyone else. So why should anyone put them first when they don't put their members first?

 

[tieguy]

Wrong.

We currently have language allowing the 2 least senior employees to be dispatched with a 4 hr gurantee. The company begged for this language for years, citing a need for "flexibility". Now that they have it...they refuse to use it. Apparently, some bean-counter didnt want to pay for one extra drive to-from the delivery area. It is still deemed to be more cost-effective to eliminate routes and work those who remain as many hours as possible.

I can't speak for your center and the wisdom they apply. I just know that overall this company is on a big overtime reduction push. the part time driver would a means to do so.

 

[tieguy]

I worked for three years for a non-union small package delivery company before being hired by UPS 30 years ago. There is no comparison. Not only do the workers need the union, but management (UPS) needs the Teamsters as well. The Teamsters national contract ensures the company uninterrupted service throughout the country, it gives both parties a very defined written agreement as to both parties' responsibilities, obligations and compensation. Do you know of any non-union company that has as good of health insurance plan as UPS workers do? Do you know of any non-union trucking firm that pays any of their drivers what UPS drivers make?

Last time I looked FDX was pretty close. They had some perks we don't have that probably put the overall package very close to ours.

Tie, it amuses me when you say that you wouldn't be discharging so many people if you really knew that they would be discharged. I think that's a poor management philosophy. In most cases it relegates management's authority to a position of the paper tiger. Simply you disempower management by entering into battles that you secretly intend to lose. And, you lose respect of your workers.

Its a reality of the business my friend whether I agree with the tactic or not. Your union loves article seven language. They know the article seven step will end up being another step in the discipline process. So their employees get another step and it makes the union look good when we eventually reduce the discharge to something lesser. If you look at the posts on this thread you can see that many members here have bought into the article seven game.

 

[Dustyroads]

tie, I'm too tired for those kind of games anymore. It just breeds an attitude of contempt. Study the threads here, I think you can notice that as well.