consolidation/EBO...so what happens now...

Dustyroads

Well-Known Member
Interesting idea. I remember when we were paid extra for turning in address corrections for a while.

It could work if there was a way for the customer to agree to the indirects. I would hate to have customers feel that we were short changing them on service or inconveniencing them at work.


Those who have worked on very rural areas know it's a different game in the country. Customers actually are flattered and pleased that a driver gives them their package in person where they work. The one in a thousand who prefer to have their package waiting on their porch when they get home will let a driver know.

Another idea I have along that same line is creating a virtual card file. Drivers would submit information as to where a package could be indirected, then a supervisor would input that into the notes, so that when that address comes up, a cover driver would know the tricks. A rural cover driver could pull their really rural stops up, without scanning the packages, see if notes exist, void back the stop without scanning a package, and indirect it to the address on the note.

In rural areas drivers indirect residentials to businesses frequently. However, some choose not to, in an effort to "bring in those miles" so neccessary for running underallowed.

The real question is, could management accept a driver or center no longer running underallowed if they were saving 15% on their miles. That would be the difficult pill for the numbercrunchers to swallow.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
When I got hired as a part-timer 23 years ago, the starting wage was $9.50 per hour with benefits after 30 days of seniority. The minimum wage at that time was $3.25 per hour, so a new hire made 3x the minimum the day he started.

Today, the starting wage has decreased to $8.50 per hour, with benefits unavailable for an entire year. The minimum wage here is now $8.25.

2/3 of UPS's workforce is part time, and even the ones with several years of service arent making 3 times the minimum. And they never will.

Adjusted for inflation, the wages and benefits of the majority of UPS's workforce are at an all time low.

Concessions? We have been making them for the last 20 years.

Sober,
I am not attacking you --from your point of view --I understand the point you made. Just ask you to consider the following:
1. What was the Driver rate 23 years ago ?
2. What was the cost of medical coverage 23 years ago ?
3. What were pension and other benefit cost 23 yrs ago?
4. What was the price of gas 23 years ago ?
5. What ground competition did UPS face 23 yrs ago ?
6. What were our labor relations like 23yrs ago ?
7. Never experienced a Nationwide strike 23 yrs ago
8. Teamsters never placed public billboards 23 yrs ago
9. Operating restrictions very few 23 yrs ago
10. Unemployment payments for companies alot less 23 yrs ago
11. Compensation costs alot less 23 years ago.
12. Customers demanding huge discounts did not exist 23 yrs ago

Point is the past is the past --no comparison to today.
Twenty three years ago the part timers had it made ---today it has all caught up with UPS ---not my fault nor yours --I am just stating obvious facts --but just like the "messinger" I get shot from many posters !!:sad-little:
Sorry --for stating the obvious !!! Reality can be cruel !!
 

Dustyroads

Well-Known Member
Just a couple observations, or perhaps rhetorical questions. What was the price of a 1 pound package sent to zone 2, 23 years ago? How many dollars in profit did UPS make 23 years ago? UPS didn't even deliver packages that weighed over 50 lbs, 23 years ago, what about this additional volume? As for never having experienced a nationwide strike 23 years ago, UPS, had, in fact, experienced a number of very costly regional strikes before the National Master Freight Agreement. The Island guy is right, there is really no valid comparison for either side.

We can say that lots have things have changed in the last quarter century. One thing is certain in our recent memory, both UPS and the IBT strongly endorsed the 2008 contract; and as always in contract negotiations, there were concessions made by both sides.

UPS has made the bed of paying their part timers progressively lower and lower wages. We will continue to reap the benefits and the costs of this decision to tier the wage scale. If the trend continues as it has in the past 20 years, part time jobs at UPS will soon be minimum wage jobs, and only 4-5 hour minimum wage jobs, at that.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Those who have worked on very rural areas know it's a different game in the country. Customers actually are flattered and pleased that a driver gives them their package in person where they work. The one in a thousand who prefer to have their package waiting on their porch when they get home will let a driver know.

Another idea I have along that same line is creating a virtual card file. Drivers would submit information as to where a package could be indirected, then a supervisor would input that into the notes, so that when that address comes up, a cover driver would know the tricks. A rural cover driver could pull their really rural stops up, without scanning the packages, see if notes exist, void back the stop without scanning a package, and indirect it to the address on the note.

In rural areas drivers indirect residentials to businesses frequently. However, some choose not to, in an effort to "bring in those miles" so neccessary for running underallowed.

The real question is, could management accept a driver or center no longer running underallowed if they were saving 15% on their miles. That would be the difficult pill for the numbercrunchers to swallow.
Dusty,
You sound like a very "stand up" person --someone who I always enjoyed working with. So let me be clear --this is not a personal attack on you.
Some posters have suggested that I am singing the same old "management fear" song. Obviously they can believe what they want.
I am a retired UPSer for some time now --while I still own some UPS stock --I have smartly and greatly diversified over the past five years. I do not have a "Horse" in this race. I do have a great respect for all UPS people -Management and hourly ----I was part of both during my 36 years.
What is happening now --is truly major but I am not surprised that so many people are in denial.
First of all --do not confuse the reciever or consignee with the customer.
Sure the person way out on the rural route loves to see the friendly face of the UPS driver --I am one of those people now !! The "customer" who is paying the shipping bill wants huge discounts .
With Competition --like Fedx --non union being much able to control their cost ---they can still make a healthy profit and give huge discounts.
This can get complicated --but it comes down to two simple numbers ---cost per piece---and-- Revenue per piece.
Ups has reached a point of no return ----much of this discounted volume is driving overtime,grievances,feeders, drivers, miles , benefits --that will never be covered by the present revenue per piece.
Yes ---cutting top management will reduce some cost ----but it does not compare with the high cost --mainly unhappy unionized workforce.
Many feel they are overworked --the partimers under paid --file grievances like falling rain--fight against sales leads "not my job" --Have the attitude the UNION will save them -----By the way I am tired of being accused of bashing the union ---Just open your eyes --you know what is going on.
I feel the bridge has been crossed --If you believe that management will cut their very top people and life will go on the same merry way ---there is nothing more to be said.
It is sad --this is purely simple math ----I have no desire to hammer ups mgmt nor the people or union.
I would hope that many ,many things will change for the better ----but being a "realist" I doubt it.
Again -Sorry for posting what I believe is Obvious ---did not mean to offend anyone ----I truly hope I am very,very, wrong ---The very near future will tell !!!!:peaceful:
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Just a couple observations, or perhaps rhetorical questions. What was the price of a 1 pound package sent to zone 2, 23 years ago? How many dollars in profit did UPS make 23 years ago? UPS didn't even deliver packages that weighed over 50 lbs, 23 years ago, what about this additional volume? As for never having experienced a nationwide strike 23 years ago, UPS, had, in fact, experienced a number of very costly regional strikes before the National Master Freight Agreement. The Island guy is right, there is really no valid comparison for either side.

We can say that lots have things have changed in the last quarter century. One thing is certain in our recent memory, both UPS and the IBT strongly endorsed the 2008 contract; and as always in contract negotiations, there were concessions made by both sides.

UPS has made the bed of paying their part timers progressively lower and lower wages. We will continue to reap the benefits and the costs of this decision to tier the wage scale. If the trend continues as it has in the past 20 years, part time jobs at UPS will soon be minimum wage jobs, and only 4-5 hour minimum wage jobs, at that.


Dusty,


Forget the rhetorical questions !!!
This is REALITY:

Total Cost per piece Vs Total revenue per piece. That is all that matters !!!

UPS has been forced to create twenty profit centers !!!!

?????????????????????????????????????????? I give up !!
Sorry --Just vented a bit:wink2:
 

Dustyroads

Well-Known Member
IslandFox, first, let me note that with regard to indirecting a rural delivery to a commercial address should have no impact on the shipper. And, rest assured, I do know the difference between a shipper and a consignee. If the shipper sent the package to a residential address that the consignee provided, and if the consignee is pleased that we indirected their package, I'm not sure how the shipper would be impacted. We indirect a lot of packages for lots of different reasons. In rural areas it happens every single day we operate.

As for your prediction that the number of cars that ups puts on the street every day will shrink from 65,000 to 25,000, it is pretty unrealistic. If that were to happen, it would be, volume wise, similar to the day after christmas every day.

As for your belief that this is the ultimate goal of the downsizing that started with 1800 management jobs being eliminated, I have never heard anyone from management, or anyone, at all, say that this is a goal of our new corporate strategy. To suggest that we want to reduce our volume by more than half, just keeping the very profitable packages, isn't much of a growth strategy.

Finally, addressing your belief that it is the high cost of union workers that have put us in a competitive disadvantage, I think that the opposite is true. You could never, ever, get a non-union Fedex driver to deliver 25 stops an hour. UPS gains ITS competitive advantage and financial advantage by economies of scale. If we can put 500 pieces on a package car, and get our driver to deliver 25 stops an hour, our profit margin is high. Our volume gives us an advantage that far outweighs any advantage that FedEx has with cheap labor. On my area, FedEx uses three package cars, an express, a ground and a home delivery car on a rural area where I take care of everything for ups in one car, and deliver more packages that all three of those drivers combined. Who has the competitive advantage now. To throw away the advantage of economies of scale would be foolish.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Why don't you old timers go settle it in a game of roshambo! :peaceful:

Buffalo,
Sorry it would interfere with my daily golf game !!!!:happy-very:
P.S.
Don't knock the old timer's -like me and Dusty --believe me we have paid our dues --and some are still paying them. Peace !!!
 

Buffaloaf

Well-Known Member
Buffalo,
Sorry it would interfere with my daily golf game !!!!:happy-very:
P.S.
Don't knock the old timer's -like me and Dusty --believe me we have paid our dues --and some are still paying them. Peace !!!

I'm not knocking on ya, I just thought maybe an interjection would lead to less e-peen flexing. :funny:
 

Dustyroads

Well-Known Member
Buff, I always appreciate reading Islandfox's posts. They are well written, I never have to try to figure out what word he may have being trying to spell, and I have this huge respect for anyone who has put 35 years of their life into a company. He understands that I have 31 years as a proud member of the IBT, and as a part of that Teamster pride, I give 100% that I have, every day I show up. He has always demonstrated respect for me and for the work that I do. We're just having fun here, bantering around and, it's free and we can do it from the recliner.
 

Buffaloaf

Well-Known Member
Buff, I always appreciate reading Islandfox's posts. They are well written, I never have to try to figure out what word he may have being trying to spell, and I have this huge respect for anyone who has put 35 years of their life into a company. He understands that I have 31 years as a proud member of the IBT, and as a part of that Teamster pride, I give 100% that I have, every day I show up. He has always demonstrated respect for me and for the work that I do. We're just having fun here, bantering around and, it's free and we can do it from the recliner.

Okay, sorry guys. There have just been too many ugly banters going on and I didn't want to see another one. Don't know your guys' history of banter between you, but understand now. Carry on, sirs!
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Okay, sorry guys. There have just been too many ugly banters going on and I didn't want to see another one. Don't know your guys' history of banter between you, but understand now. Carry on, sirs!


Dusty and Buffalo,
This "Bud" IS for you both. To repeat what Dusty so eloquently stated --I too enjoy the banter ----I have full respect for all present and past --and hopefully future UPS people --Hourly and Mgmt --In my humble opinion --the best people in the world. I did my 36 years --had more ups than downs --Looking back --I would not have changed too much.
Botom line --BC --and the ups posters here --still keep me attached --so many years of my life were spent there --can never go cold turkey.:peaceful:
 

satellitedriver

Moderator
I love the banter.
Both, Island and Dusty, are intelligent, well spoken and respectful posters.
I am jealous of their intellects, and verbal/grammatical skills.



 

purplesky

Well-Known Member
socal,
Regions have been reduced drastically--Districts are being reduced drastically---Cost per piece continues to rise---Revenue per piece is not growing --customers looking for more discounts -cheaper delivery.
Ups with high union paid employees cannot continue as the ups we all know.
High pay,health benefits,Pensions, Compensation,gas etc --will continue to rise.
Ups cannot afford to pay in the area of fifty bucks an hour to deliver discounted volume.
Solution --1. Reduce management
NEXT: Keep and maintain only high revenue per pc volume- low discounted volume --this will cause huge declines in volume ---through the contract ---massive layoffs -less feeders,drivers, trucks, bldgs, etc.
Will have a much smaller company with high revenue volume and hopefully a much wiser union workforce. Sorry for the bad news --but the plan is very clear !!!! As you can see steps two -three -four are just a matter of time ---many UPSers still do not get it !!! This is just the start of MAJOR changes !!!!:sad-little:

Islandfox,
You do make some great points and you might be right. But its also possible that we could have a huge economic recovery here in the states and worldwide. Just like the 90s and just like the housing boom. The potential for International shipping is still huge if this happens. An economic recovery will happen its just how faraway and how big will it be? Things can change fast in this world as we have all seen in the past 15 years. Yes UPS like all other companies will be streamlined but companies will at sometime start hiring workers again and making product and we will see growth in the volume at UPS. With online sales growth each year I just dont see massive layoffs on the frontlines. UPS is by far better positioned than any other delivery company in 2010. The Post Office is going to fail and Fed Ex ground is not going to have a couple hundred thousand drivers that work for contractors pretending to be contractors. That model will not work if it gets UPS big. Not in CA. and not in NY. or PA. so I feel pretty good about UPS and its chances to survive this recession.
 
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