Fast And Furious Takes An Interesting Turn

[bbsam]

I would like to know what level of gun control the NRA would be comfortable with. If we agree that letting the weapons go south of the border without tracking is bad, what about north of the Rio Grande? Should we have gun registration? Waiting periods? Background checks? Or should obtaining firearms in the US be fast and furious?

 

[moreluck]

Wait, is this all about Obama's plan to revoke the Second Amendment by doing a 'Rope-a dope'?

FWIW, The hair brained idea was cooked up by the Arizona office way back when that 'other guy' was president. We all know you can't spell 'Crazy' without 'AZ'. Not one of the people who cooked up this idea has been asked to testify. Issa is requesting documents that were produced well after the operation was ended.

I found this tidbit, and rather than paraphrase, I'll just quote it:

Issa’s uncovered no evidence showing Holder bears any blame for the botched operations begun under George W. Bush, even though the Justice Department turned over thousands of pages of documents concerning the operations. Instead of accepting this fact, Issa has requested many more documents containing confidential information regarding ongoing law enforcement investigations, and is now threatening to hold Holder in contempt if these documents are not turned over. Holder is entirely correct to withhold these documents, however, because Justice Department documents are not subject to congressional subpoena if they would reveal “strategies and procedures that could be used by individuals seeking to evade [DOJ's] law enforcement efforts.”

Reagan’s Justice Department Agreed With Holder: President Reagan’s Justice Department warned in the 1980s that the Constitution’s separation of powers prevents the kind of documents Issa is seeking from being revealed to Congress because of the risk that the legislature could “exert pressure or attempt to influence the prosecution of criminal cases.”


How about the Congress has a vote on something that would help the country, instead of this crap? I believe there are a number of bills that the Speaker won't bring to the floor.

The House keeps passing bills about jobs and all sorts of topics and doing their job, but Harry Reid and the Senate refuse to bring anything to a vote. I forget the number, but it was big!

 

[The Other Side]

I find it hilarious how GUN owners (note: i didnt say gun nuts) always claim that its the person who kills someone and not the gun, YET, in operation fast and furious, it wasnt the mexican who killed the border agent, but it was the GUN.

Which is it?

Why when convenient, is the shooter responsible and the gun held harmless, and with the death of the border agent, the GUN is responsible?

SOBERUPS has been on this site a Kajillion times saying that GUNS dont kill people, people do, and now you all want to take a different approach.

I am willing to agree that GUNS kill people like the border agent since you ALL are embracing this theory. ITs all FOX news wants to talk about, "the gun" this and "the gun" that... and NO MENTION OF THE SHOOTER, or his prosecution.

I would like everyone to accept this new theory that GUNS kill people and I hope you ALL embrace it as strongly with every KILLING in this country as you do in this case.

peace

TOS

 

[roadrunner2012]

The House keeps passing bills about jobs and all sorts of topics and doing their job, but Harry Reid and the Senate refuse to bring anything to a vote. I forget the number, but it was big!

Err, not exactly so. Devil's in the details and that sort of thing.

I suppose that's why the House has an approval rating of around 10%.

 

[over9five]

I find it hilarious how GUN owners (note: i didnt say gun nuts) always claim that its the person who kills someone and not the gun, YET, in operation fast and furious, it wasnt the mexican who killed the border agent, but it was the GUN.

Which is it?

Why when convenient, is the shooter responsible and the gun held harmless, and with the death of the border agent, the GUN is responsible?

SOBERUPS has been on this site a Kajillion times saying that GUNS dont kill people, people do, and now you all want to take a different approach.

I am willing to agree that GUNS kill people like the border agent since you ALL are embracing this theory. ITs all FOX news wants to talk about, "the gun" this and "the gun" that... and NO MENTION OF THE SHOOTER, or his prosecution.

I would like everyone to accept this new theory that GUNS kill people and I hope you ALL embrace it as strongly with every KILLING in this country as you do in this case.

peace

TOS

A PERSON did kill our border patrol agent. It was the PERSON that authorized the foolishness of allowing untracked guns into Mexico. It was the PERSON that is using Executive Privilege.

 

[roadrunner2012]

A PERSON did kill our border patrol agent. It was the PERSON that authorized the foolishness of allowing untracked guns into Mexico. It was the PERSON that is using Executive Privilege.

It was authorized by the local AZ ATF chief, who has not been subpoenaed. He started the program under the former president. The Attorney General at that time (his boss) has also no been subpoenaed.

The documents that are requested by Issa have nothing to do with the death of a Border Patrol agent. They have to do with discussions that took place well after the fact, that dealt with a variety of matters that are beyond the scope of Issa's powers.

The guns found at the scene, while part of the flawed AZ ATF plan, have never been linked to the actual murder, just so you know.

Subpena the AZ ATF head, William Newell (bet that's a new name for you) and Michael Mukasey.

 

[over9five]

Keep drinking that kool-aid, kid.

 

[moreluck]

Aren't discussions 'after the fact' the definition of a cover-up??

 

[over9five]

Keep drinking that kool-aid, kid.

Sorry, let me expound on that:

You are really going to give it the ol' Obama "Blame it on Bush" spiel? Did this not happen while Obama was President? Do you HONESTLY believe he knew nothing about it?

Let me tell ya, America LAUGHS when they still hear "Blame it on Bush". It's getting really old. This one's on Obama.

 

[Babagounj]

The operation started under Bush was called something like Line Backer, which did result in arrests.
friend & friend was another operation which to date has not made a single arrest.
Except for the Reese family of NM.
U.S. family jailed for Holder’s gun crimes

 

[ibslick50]

A PERSON did kill our border patrol agent. It was the PERSON that authorized the foolishness of allowing untracked guns into Mexico. It was the PERSON that is using Executive Privilege.

ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you serious with your thought process? The guns were sold out of local gun stores in az. and nm. The program was ran by the local atf. If these gun stores didnt sell the guns to gun runners (straw purchasers), we wouldnt have to have these programs in the first place. By the way, the progam was started by Bush.

 

[The Other Side]

What i find amuzing is the lack of understanding this board has on what happened with fast and furious. First things first, you have to KNOW when the operation started. UNFORTUNATELY for you C9ers, the program used by the ATF at "local" levels was started under GW BUSH and called OPERATION WIDE RECIEVER.

The BUSH administration SIGNED OFF on this program and the term GUN WALKING was first used. The ATF under BUSH was doing the same thing as Fast and Furious.

When OBAMA took office, the ATF near the border simply changed the name of the operation to FAST AND FURIOUS.

It had NOTHING TO DO WITH OBAMA, HOLDER or any of OBAMAS staff. These decisions are made at a local level and a paper trail sent up through the chain of command to the justice department.

Fox Tries To Defend Bush-Era Gun Walking Operation | Media Matters for America

So far, ISSA has nothing. A witch hunt in order to try to embarrass the president.

If it wasnt for the gun freaks in AZ and NM selling weapons to gun runners in the first place, sting operations like these wouldnt need to be conducted. What is left out of the conversation on the GOP part, is the gun dealers who have been arrested.

Arent they just as guilty for selling the weapons to "gun walkers" in the first place?

If you want to blame anyone, blame the NRA for fighting to allow gun dealers to secretly sell arms to mexican cartels and PROHIBIT regulations.

Peace

TOS

 

[moreluck]

Same old, same old....ONLY you could possibly uderstand a situation, the rest of us are too stupid. At least I wouldn't be stupid enough to turn guns free without a GPS on them...............Eric 'Stupid' Holder!!!

And, I seem to remember gun dealers being told to sell the large number of guns by some authority....either FBI or ATF.........

 

[moreluck]

 

[over9five]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Keep drinking that Obama kool-aid!!!!!!!!! I love the ATF "local level", like it has nothing to do with the federal government!!!!

Holy Crap, did you really say that??? You CAN NOT really believe what you're saying!

LOLLOLLOLLOL, omg......

 

[trplnkl]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Keep drinking that Obama kool-aid!!!!!!!!! I love the ATF "local level", like it has nothing to do with the federal government!!!!

Holy Crap, did you really say that??? You CAN NOT really believe what you're saying!

LOLLOLLOLLOL, omg......

He believes everything MSNBC and Bill Maher tells him. He thinks the C9 (hahaha I love that), should believe him.

 

[moreluck]

Same old, same old....ONLY you could possibly uderstand a situation, the rest of us are too stupid. At least I wouldn't be stupid enough to turn guns free without a GPS on them...............Eric 'Stupid' Holder!!!

And, I seem to remember gun dealers being told to sell the large number of guns by some authority....either FBI or ATF.........

This is what I was referring to....


"The Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives apparently ordered one of its own agents to purchase firearms with taxpayer money, and sell them directly to a Mexican drug cartel.

Let that sink in: After months of pretending that “Fast and Furious” was a botched surveillance operation of illegal gun-running spearheaded by the ATF and the US attorney’s office in Phoenix, it turns out that the government itself was selling guns to the bad guys.




Agent John Dodson was ordered to buy four Draco pistols for cash and even got a letter from his supervisor, David Voth, authorizing a federally licensed gun dealer to sell him the guns without bothering about the necessary paperwork.

“Please accept this letter in lieu of completing an ATF Form 4473 for the purchase of four (4) CAI, Model Draco, 7.62x39 mm pistols, by Special Agent John Dodson,” read the June 1, 2010, letter. “These aforementioned pistols will be used by Special Agent Dodson in furtherance of performance of his official duties.”


Read more: --Michael A. Walsh - NYPOST.com



also:

federal agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives encouraged gun stores to sell weapons to an arms smuggling gang, then watched as the guns crossed the border and were used in crimes.

 

[wkmac]

ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you serious with your thought process? The guns were sold out of local gun stores in az. and nm. The program was ran by the local atf. If these gun stores didnt sell the guns to gun runners (straw purchasers), we wouldnt have to have these programs in the first place. By the way, the progam was started by Bush.

Are you blaming the gun stores owners exclusively? You don't think there was some "arm twisting" from ATF or at least the appearance the gun store owners were working for the gov't "in doing the greater good?" Is it possible some of these gun stores owners have some twisted idea of patriotism and what they were doing was even patriotic?

Katie Pavlich's book "Fast and Furious" makes the following point on page 58 as it relates to the relationship between the ATF and gun store owners.

”Not only did Voth encourage the gun shops to make illegal arms sales, but he and Hope McCallister actually instructed gun shop owners like Andre Howard of Lone Wolf Trading Company on how to file their taxes in such a way that would prevent IRS inquiries, which otherwise might happen because of the spikes in their shops’ incomes.”

ATF was acting as facilitator and if gun stores were so eager to do this (not suggesting all gun stores are above reproach either) ATF could have done this all by undercover with even the gun stores not aware who they were doing this for. If you are suggesting the US gun stores as criminal, then why have none been criminally charged for doing what is obvious to all as being illegal? If ATF was telling them how to off book profits, where is the IRS?

And as to when all of this started, under Bush or Obama, this is so easy to resolve as ATF itself fully admits this right off their own website. ATF under Project Gunrunner ran Operation Wide Receiver during the Bush years and did the same with a name change under Obama being Fast and Furious.

The problem in Mexico in many respects was created by our own gov't. The drug problem in Central and South America is created by our gov't mostly by the CIA who use the money for off book black operations. Al Qaeda and the forces of radical jihadism are again mostly outcrops of gov't action just as many of our domestic problems are direct or indirect blowback of central planning interventions by our own gov't most often at the behest and benefit of a few regardless of the negative outcome to the many.

I posed the following question in the original post:

Now will the bleating partiarches be able to see beyond and begin to follow to the conclusions?

And I see for the most part that the answer to that question just as I felt when I first posted it is still "NO!"

 

[Babagounj]

Anyone who thinks Obama and Holder were unaware of the Fast & Furious gunrunning operation must not have seen this press conference from March 2009

 

[The Other Side]

ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you serious with your thought process? The guns were sold out of local gun stores in az. and nm. The program was ran by the local atf. If these gun stores didnt sell the guns to gun runners (straw purchasers), we wouldnt have to have these programs in the first place. By the way, the progam was started by Bush.

They wont accept the truth SLICK, the narrative has already been sold to them. TO them, OBAMA directly sells guns to the cartels. If you listen to FOX, or RUSH, thats the impression they give.

Drones.

Peace

TOS