Got rid of ORIAN

[pretzel_man]

P-man, is Orion better suited for a city run as opposed to a rural or is the basic application the same for both?

A computer program cannot make up for the stupidity of some of the dispatch.

From what they showed me, it works with most runs (except super urban-no miles to reduce).

Yep.... Won't fix a bad dispatch, but if it comes up with ways to reduce miles with the existing dispatch, that's a start.

 

[hellfire]

so basically ups is spending more money to compensate for incompetent operations management

 

[menotyou]

Once again.

 

[Re-Raise]

It still seems useless to me to have the board regroup the stops to tell the driver which stops are close together. Who doesn't know that?

But the route driver knows other things too that won't show up.

I know which route the local school bus takes and at what time dropping off kids. I know what time the shipping department goes on break making you wait outside the dock. I know which roads are impassible in bad weather. I know how much of an area to bite off to make pickup compliance.

It just irritates me that someone thinks they need to have a program make every decision for me. I already try to reduce miles.

If we get it I will keep an open mind and see if it helps in any way. Unfortunately I feel Sober is right about it just being another number to make look good on a report.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

It just irritates me that someone thinks they need to have a program make every decision for me.

Our center nicknamed the most recent DIAD upgrade "UPS for Dummies"--sounds like Orion has taken that to the next level.

 

[soberups]

Will ORIAN be able to comprehend the fact that your route (that should be loaded in a P-10) has instead been forced into a P-7 which requires you to deliver the bulk that is clogging up the middle of the package compartment before you can get anything done?

Will ORIAN be familiar with the schools on your particular route so that you can avoid delivering to them at the same time that the students are all being dismissed? Will it be "smart" enough to keep you from getting stuck behind a school bus that stops at every 5th house for 10 miles ?

Will ORIAN know which driver in your loop has an 8 hr request that will require you to meet him and take his remaining stops at 5:00, and will it plan for that contingency?

Will ORIAN know which roads get plowed and which ones are impossible to drive on until the snow melts?

Will ORIAN know which businesses have a shift change at 3:00 so that you dont get stuck in the parking lot behind 200 employees who are all trying to leave at the same time?


I suspect that the answers to these questions are "no". Which is fine....as long as the driver with years of area knowledge is still allowed to use common sense in order to deal with the variables. Unfortunately, common sense has little or no relevance in the metrics-obsessed cult of UPS management. Whatever benefits ORIAN might have to offer will be offset by the absurd lengths that operations management will go to in order to generate whatever metric Corporate is demanding.

The system wont fail. We will fail the system.

 

[soberups]

so basically ups is spending more money to compensate for incompetent operations management

First rule of UPS management; it is perfectly acceptable to spend $500 in order to save a dime, as long as the dime shows up on your report and the $500 shows up on someone elses.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Will ORIAN be able to comprehend the fact that your route (that should be loaded in a P-10) has instead been forced into a P-7 which requires you to deliver the bulk that is clogging up the middle of the package compartment before you can get anything done?

Will ORIAN be familiar with the schools on your particular route so that you can avoid delivering to them at the same time that the students are all being dismissed? Will it be "smart" enough to keep you from getting stuck behind a school bus that stops at every 5th house for 10 miles ?

Will ORIAN know which driver in your loop has an 8 hr request that will require you to meet him and take his remaining stops at 5:00, and will it plan for that contingency?

Will ORIAN know which roads get plowed and which ones are impossible to drive on until the snow melts?

Will ORIAN know which businesses have a shift change at 3:00 so that you dont get stuck in the parking lot behind 200 employees who are all trying to leave at the same time?


I suspect that the answers to these questions are "no". Which is fine....as long as the driver with years of area knowledge is still allowed to use common sense in order to deal with the variables. Unfortunately, common sense has little or no relevance in the metrics-obsessed cult of UPS management. Whatever benefits ORIAN might have to offer will be offset by the absurd lengths that operations management will go to in order to generate whatever metric Corporate is demanding.

The system wont fail. We will fail the system.

This is where I feel tempted to say, why are you using common sense then?

When a driver does the "right" thing instead of, trace for ex, aren't we burying ourselves?

Why do we not go 100% by edd. Why do we not exercise 12 hour real-world days by doing exactly by the 340 methods and as these insulting attempts at technology predict us to do ?

 

[pretzel_man]

I guess there is no point in letting facts get in the way of your opinions.....

You already think you are as efficient as possible. If that's true, ORION won't find any mileage savings.....

I wonder why each of the locations found savings? I guess everyone else is just not as smart as you.

 

[soberups]

This is where I feel tempted to say, why are you using common sense then?

When a driver does the "right" thing instead of, trace for ex, aren't we burying ourselves?

Why do we not go 100% by edd. Why do we not exercise 12 hour real-world days by doing exactly by the 340 methods and as these insulting attempts at technology predict us to do ?

Art 37 requires me to "perform my duties in a manner which best represents the interests of the Company." I interpret that to mean that I should use common sense and logic to be as effective as possible within the constraints of the labor agreement and the need to work safely.

I am also required to work as directed...also within the contstraints of the labor agreement and the need to work safely.

Sometimes, these two requirements are mutually exclusive. If that is the case, my first priority will usually be to comply with Art 37 and get the job done. But if I am dealing with an irrational and unreasonable management person who insists upon micro-managing me, then I will go ahead and oblige him by shutting my brain off and complying with his instructions to the letter. If he wants 100% compliance he will get 100% compliance and when its all said and done he probably isnt going to like the consequences of 100% compliance.

 

[soberups]

I guess there is no point in letting facts get in the way of your opinions.....

You already think you are as efficient as possible. If that's true, ORION won't find any mileage savings.....

I wonder why each of the locations found savings? I guess everyone else is just not as smart as you.

Saving miles does not always equate to saving time.

All roads look flat and paved and traffic-free when you sit behind a desk and look at them on MapQuest. They arent always that way out there in the real world where the packages are actually getting delivered.

I dont know anything about ORIAN. Heck, it could very well be the greatest thing since sliced bread. What I do know....is that UPS has a long history of implementing new programs on the cheap, and then drowning them in an ocean of conflicting quotas and metrics and micro-management. Will we be thorough and patient and flexible in our thinking when we implement ORIAN? Will we take the time to work the bugs out of it? Or will we do it half-assed and then chase an impossible number off of a cliff so that we can pretend that it is working the way we want it to?

 

[Re-Raise]

I guess there is no point in letting facts get in the way of your opinions.....

You already think you are as efficient as possible. If that's true, ORION won't find any mileage savings.....

I wonder why each of the locations found savings? I guess everyone else is just not as smart as you.

Yeah right and telematics is primary a tool to anticipate automotive problems.

I guess everyone else is just not as smart as you think you are in the office.

Do you really think we are so stupid that we don't know which stops are close together? I can look at my edd in the morning and know what roads I will be on, who I will deliver to at their workplace and which dogs bite.

Whoever said we should follow trace 100% might be on to something. It might help to prove how taking the decision making ability from your $30 + an hour workforce is nuts.

 

[pretzel_man]

Yeah right and telematics is primary a tool to anticipate automotive problems.

I guess everyone else is just not as smart as you think you are in the office.

Do you really think we are so stupid that we don't know which stops are close together? I can look at my edd in the morning and know what roads I will be on, who I will deliver to at their workplace and which dogs bite.

Whoever said we should follow trace 100% might be on to something. It might help to prove how taking the decision making ability from your $30 + an hour workforce is nuts.

I never have said drivers are stupid. Of course you know what stops are close to each other.

However, why do you think that every one of you are doing things in the most efficient way? Maybe there is a better way??

Tell me why every single one of the locations significantly saved time AND miles.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Art 37 requires me to "perform my duties in a manner which best represents the interests of the Company." I interpret that to mean that I should use common sense and logic to be as effective as possible within the constraints of the labor agreement and the need to work safely.

I am also required to work as directed...also within the contstraints of the labor agreement and the need to work safely.

Sometimes, these two requirements are mutually exclusive. If that is the case, my first priority will usually be to comply with Art 37 and get the job done. But if I am dealing with an irrational and unreasonable management person who insists upon micro-managing me, then I will go ahead and oblige him by shutting my brain off and complying with his instructions to the letter. If he wants 100% compliance he will get 100% compliance and when its all said and done he probably isnt going to like the consequences of 100% compliance.

It is in my opinion that the best interest of the company is the order the diad prints out the stops in EDD, regardless whether it is right or wrong. Why is there any order if they are not the most appropriate? Why can't the DRIVER command what order they are in, if that is the companies best interest, after all? Seeing the driver has no control from the start, why should the driver have to work harder to compensate for dispatch or ORIAN or whatever best-guess technology is available?

Yeah, can't wait for OMS to tell me I'm not in compliance with the pickups. That is when I comply, customers become unhappy or call me unpredictable and I'm out later at night. However, it looks amazing on paper to be 95% compliant and not get a talk-with.

 

[bottomups]

I throw PAS/EDD out every morning. The first few minutes of my day, after pre-trip of course, is to scan through my EDD and get a pretty good idea of what my day will be like. I then load my truck in what I believe will be the most efficient way to run the day. Preference is given to all air and BUSINESS stops. Doubt that my trace compliance is above 50% but after the couple years I have been satellited I have yet to get any complaints from my management team. In my little corner of the world, commercial stops and customer service come first!

 

[brownmonster]

PAS itself didn't save time or money. Cut routes, increased SPC and production harrasement did. I would love it if I was forced to run the route exactly as the computer tells me. Thankfully my boss knows that would be crazy.

 

[pretzel_man]

Saving miles does not always equate to saving time.

All roads look flat and paved and traffic-free when you sit behind a desk and look at them on MapQuest. They arent always that way out there in the real world where the packages are actually getting delivered.

I dont know anything about ORIAN. Heck, it could very well be the greatest thing since sliced bread. What I do know....is that UPS has a long history of implementing new programs on the cheap, and then drowning them in an ocean of conflicting quotas and metrics and micro-management. Will we be thorough and patient and flexible in our thinking when we implement ORIAN? Will we take the time to work the bugs out of it? Or will we do it half-assed and then chase an impossible number off of a cliff so that we can pretend that it is working the way we want it to?

I am not an expert, but I do know that it will be plagued with the same issues that every other system ever developed by any company has had.

It will be imperfect. As far as I know a perfect one does not exist.

The question remains. Can it improve what you are doing? Can it show you a better way to reduce miles (and time). Yes, I asked that question. It does not only look at miles....

The bottom liine is this... If you are already as efficient as possible in determining how to deliver (order of delivery), the system will find no savings.....

If the system sees a better way, why would you not try it?

Will it be perfect? Of course not. I'm certain it was imperfect in the sites that tested it. They showed large gains.... Why?

Remember where this started. With an incorrect statement that the system showed no benefit. That was an untrue statement.

The system they used will be more imperfect than the one you will have....

 

[UPSGUY72]

I am not an expert, but I do know that it will be plagued with the same issues that every other system ever developed by any company has had.

It will be imperfect. As far as I know a perfect one does not exist.

The question remains. Can it improve what you are doing? Can it show you a better way to reduce miles (and time). Yes, I asked that question. It does not only look at miles....

The bottom liine is this... If you are already as efficient as possible in determining how to deliver (order of delivery), the system will find no savings.....

If the system sees a better way, why would you not try it?

Will it be perfect? Of course not. I'm certain it was imperfect in the sites that tested it. They showed large gains.... Why?

Remember where this started. With an incorrect statement that the system showed no benefit. That was an untrue statement.

The system they used will be more imperfect than the one you will have....

The "system" doesn't find the " better " way the people / person that have no experience delivering packages and very little area knowledge enters the information into the system in the order they came up with because it looks good on paper..

 

[pretzel_man]

The "system" doesn't find the " better " way the people / person that have no experience delivering packages and very little area knowledge enters the information into the system in the order they came up with because it looks good on paper..[/QUOTE]

I will ask you again....

What were the results?

You said initially and imply again that there were no benefits.

Were time AND miles reduced? Paid day? SPORH?

If they reduced why?

 

[UnconTROLLed]

What is ORIAN or ORION, or whatever the name is?

Can someone explain briefly or provide a link? I'm just waiting for the day UPS tries to develop and implement some type of simulation modeling to conceptualize the data into a planned day. Much like environmental modeling (i.e. weather forecasting). Has UPS spoken with EMC?