Gov healthcare

wkmac

Well-Known Member
There may be someTownhall folks who show concern and are REPECTFUL, epesically at the Presidential townhall meeting, and may not trust what the Whitehouse proposes, but you have to admit, change the scenery, and many of these boisetress Townhall folks at Congressional Townhall meetings start spewing mis-information and verbal garbage word for word that comes from the pie holes of Conservative talk radio/blogs, Fox, and even Rep Iowa Senators and ex-Gov's from Alaska. At least, if these folks are going to lash out at a public official, you better have your facts and concerns checked and verified by someone smarter than you, otherwise you'll look like another American Idiot....BTW, with all the potentially loose cannons in the protest confines, must your NH libertarian friend bring a gun to a Presidential townhall demonstration. Still trying to figure that one out...:wink2: I know, I know... We should trust him like we trust the gov't ?...lol

PS Don't flame me to hard Satan...I still value your opinion.

If you consider my non-aggression point earlier, it won't take long to discern my brand of libertarianism and our NH "friend" are quite different. Besides I'd drink a beer with the President but I'd insist Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers were with us. Not only would it drive the republican "so-called" right absolutely nuts but it would make the corp. elite who own Obama very nervous and wonder if he might be slipping. I keep telling you people I really am an anarchist!

Also not having attended a Town Hall meeting nor a Tea Party, if I did such as say a Town Hall, I'd do so with respect and absolute kindness. I have no need for being a YouTube sensation via Huffington of Democratic Underground so why act like an emotional idiot? Besides, when your support of a party and political belief is not really that much different than what you are trying to oppose, about all you got left is to scream and exaggerate the issues IMO.

Now like a sniper in the weeds, I'll drill them between the eyes with some questions that they least expected with some source information the typical public isn't suppose to have but I'd ask the question, smiling and thanking them for their time and then sit down and watch them squirm as they try to answer or I'd enjoy the Oscar performance in creative lying to at least save face with the other lemmings in the room.

You see the politician is nothing but the excuse because the question's real purpose is to provoke the people attending the meeting and there will always be some who come up later wanting to know more. These aren't my first rodeo's either. Never talk to the politician, talk through them!

That's the nature of political warfare and underminding the power of the State!
:wink2:

As for flaming you, I just downed a big glass of southern sweet iced tea and I knocked my pilot light out! And I'm all out of matches.

I've got to upgrade to electronic ignition!
:happy-very:

BTW: Valuing my opinion could get you on a gov't watch list or committed!
:winks:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Tie,

Earlier today I happen to see an interview Wolf Blitzer had with Linda Douglas, an Obama adminstration communication official or propogandist for the State for short. Wolf questioned her about the Drug Industry committing $150 million for advertising to sell the Obama healthcare plan and Fraulien Douglas IMO just "evaded" the question. Now to be fair what she did is not anything new in Washington as this is standard MO but with an issue as flammable as healthcare is, when there appears to be the hiding of something, people will tend to think the worse and when they hear worse they will tend to go with it.

The Obama adminstration ran on transparency and change and now it appears neither is taking place.

Here's a transcript of the interview so you can read for yourself and make up your own mind. The facts are so hard now that even the MSM can't ignore and is having again to follow the alternative media in America and ask the adminstration directly even though they know the $150 million is true!

I do think like you that a whole lot more of the TownHall "protestors" are ordinary folk and not political operatives. With more and more info coming to light that the healthcare industry is in bed with the adminstration, it seems foolish to then turn around and spend money on the other side unless this is pure dialectics at play.

More and more me thinks something is rotten in Denmark via Washington DC.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Sorry couldn't resist.


"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Sorry couldn't resist.


"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

Good morning Devil,

It's no secret. Rising healthcare costs are a burden for Canucks too, and the rest of the world.
Aging population, obesity, and higher costs for technoligy related healthcare equipment, etc.
But, we aren't conservative, we always look for change.
If we can save money and time, and have better service, darn rights, change it.
Atleast arlarmbells are ringing here, even if we only spend 50% per capita, of what the US spends.
I find it good, they went to Europe, to inform themselves, and maybe implement the best things thier plans have to offer.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
The Overlooked Solution for Health Care

Breaking the debate barrier.

By Sheldon Richman
Published: 14 August 2009



Discussing healthcare reform with an advocate of government control is frustrating. It almost feels as if one is speaking a foreign language — and in a sense, the free-market proponent is speaking a foreign language. The meaning usually doesn’t get through.
This is most obvious when the advocate of a State solution says, as President Obama said, “The scary thing is to do nothing.” Anyone who thinks that the free-market solution means doing nothing is either ignorant or dishonest. Sorry, I see no other alternative. It doesn’t take much looking to see that we have nothing like a free market in medical services and insurance. Insisting we do is an effective way to assure that the free market is never considered as an alternative to the current State-ridden system.
The statist also shows his lack of understanding (or of honesty) by loosely accusing the free-market advocate of “being in the pocket of the insurance and drug companies.” Is it impossible that someone could sincerely believe that the market solution is just and efficient? Those who throw this charge around miss a perhaps subtle point. A free-market advocate and big entrenched insurance companies could oppose the same proposal — say, a government-run insurance program — without having any other positions in common. The market advocate rejects not only the so-called public option; he also favors dismantling the entire protectionist-regulatory-monopoly-privilege system the insurance companies have enjoyed for generations. No insurance company favors that. Similarly, libertarians and pharmaceutical companies oppose government’s negotiating drug prices. But no Big Pharma company is likely to favor repealing the FDA, the monopolistic patent system, and other privileges because these interventions protect it from upstart competition.
There’s a deeper barrier keeping the honest advocate of nationalized medical care from truly hearing what the libertarian says: the (implicit) belief that medical care is a right, and its corollary, that no one should have to pay (very much) for these services.
This is where the discussion needs to be but usually isn’t, which accounts for the mostly unsatisfying outcome. There is no meeting of the minds on what is in dispute, much less on what ought to be done.
Someone who believes that medical care is a right will never accept that consumption of medical services should have anything at all to do with one’s income or wealth. That’s just wrong, he will think. What’s more, he’ll think there’s something deeply wrong with the market advocate for thinking this way. “What’s the market got to do with it?” he’ll wonder in horror. “We’re talking about medical care!”
The libertarian may never convince the statist, but the first (and perhaps the last) thing to be discussed should be whether medical care is a right. Of course, it can’t be a right. In the absence of a contract, no one can have a right to anything that must be provided by someone else’s labor. It really is that simple. The alternative proposition is in essence a slave proposition. Most people will never be persuaded by the excellent efficiency arguments against nationalized medicine — the fact that bureaucratic rationing and triage are inevitable with government in charge — if they cling to the medical-care-is-a-right theory. So we may as well have the debate there.​

No Right, No Service?

The libertarian must also head the statist off at this pass: the inference that if you don’t believe health care is a right, you must believe that people of modest means would be — and even should be — without adequate medical attention.
Of course, this is ridiculous. Opposition to nationalized agriculture or housing doesn’t imply that people of modest means should starve or go homeless. When you consider how concentrated wealth was throughout history, it is astonishing how competent market-oriented society — despite all the State’s efforts to cripple it — has been at delivering necessities and one-time luxuries to the masses. From the Industrial Revolution onward, to the extent people have been free to engage in enterprise, it was regular people whose living standard increased by orders of magnitude.
The point is that markets deliver, and medical care has been no exception. If the price of basic care has soared since World War II, we can largely thank all the ways government has unhinged demand from cost considerations. Much medical care is optional or marginal, and if government, by disguising the true cost, makes it possible for people to overconsume it, those of modest incomes who don’t qualify for handouts will suffer the consequences.
It is simply wrong to believe that in a “freed market,” as Charles Johnson calls it, large numbers of people would go without medical attention. A free society would be richer at all levels than our semi-free society because it would have none of the barriers that today impede economic self-advancement. (See Johnson’s article on the matter.) A freed medical system would be competitive, entrepreneurial, and innovative in getting services to greater numbers of people at reasonable prices. How do we know? We’ve see the same pattern in other industries that are far less straitjacketed than the medical industry. In case after case, what began as luxuries for the rich have become commonplace items for nearly everyone. A government-free medical industry would have no income-preserving professional licensing, no paternalistic drug prescriptions, no competition-inhibiting patents, no monopolistic certificates of need, no protectionist medical guild. In their place would be competition and entrepreneurship, the discovery process that serves consumers in ways we cannot imagine in advance​

Demand-Side Innovation

Innovation would also emerge on the demand side. Again we can refer to history. In an earlier time Americans (and Britons and Australians) of modest means, including new immigrants, obtained medical care through sophisticated mutual-aid societies and in particular the institution called lodge practice. Exemplifying what Tocqueville identified as an American penchant for setting up associations, early Americans established “friendly societies” not only for social contact but for the safety net later provided, in coercive and much inferior form, by the welfare state. One member benefit of these societies was access to a family physician with whom the group contracted on an annual basis. “Lodge practice,” historian David Beito writes, “became particularly extensive in urban and industrial centers. In 1915, for example, Dr. S.S. Goldwater, Health Commissioner of New York City, went so far as to assert that in many communities it had become ‘the chosen or established method of dealing with sickness among the relatively poor.’” Lodge practice flourished until State-empowered organized medicine, whose members’ incomes were threatened by this unorthodox competition, put the screws to the “lodge doctors” it reviled. Who knows how mutual-aid would have evolved had it not been crowded out by “Progressives” aping Bismarck and wielding the power of taxation? What we do know is that people found a way to make medical care “universal and affordable,” that holy grail the politicians still haven’t located.
Free people are resourceful even when their resources are modest. The key is to keep government out of the way.
Admittedly, the sick and destitute would have had trouble joining a mutual-aid society. But a free and prosperous society would also be a generous society. History demonstrates it. As in the past, philanthropic foundations, charity hospitals, teaching hospitals, and pro bono medicine would all combine to provide for those who truly could not make it on their own. Government intervention undoubtedly makes these things less common. If laws mandate that all hospital emergency rooms treat whoever shows up with whatever ailment, we can anticipate that charitable efforts will be less abundant than in a free society.
We will never achieve the medical system — indeed, the society — worthy of free people as long as we are trapped in the juvenile mindset that someone owes us medical care. It is an absurd doctrine — is that someone also owed medical care? But worse, it is fodder for political opportunists, who will exploit this demand to increase State power at the expense of freedom and therefore dignity. If we follow this path, rationing of medical care might be the least of our worries.​
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Rather interesting article from 2000' on mutual aid societies before the welfare state.

The author is:

David T. Beito is assistant professor of history at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa and is the author of From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State: Fraternal Societies and Social Services, 1890-1967 (University of North Carolina Press).
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Canada Care is Imploding

See, how simple it is to fix here though ?
Doctors talk to goverment health officials, about improvements, without adding (too many ) costs. And it gets done !

Something impossible to do in the states.
You would not only need goverment and docs involved, but also all the private clinics, hospitals, and every insurance company in a room, from every single state, too.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Seems from the NY Times that the idea of non-profit health co-ops are getting a little bit of airtime and that's a good thing. Thanks to Senator Conrad for putting this idea of longstanding on the table and instead of the gov't putting $6 bil in as grant/seed money to get one started, why not strip out all the law on the books that give the present system it's dominate or nearly monopoly status so that the economic playing field is level and then the best cream rises to the top.

Funny we want gov't to re-write the labor law that does the same thing for UPS in regards to FedEx but we fail to grasp the cartel elsewhere.

Just for the record, I asked my representatives to just abolish the standing labor laws entirely and then let UPS and FedEx compete head to head and then the IBT or whatever union can also try their best. Nobody has advantage, nobody has disadvantage. I had to send those letters on my own time and stamp because UPS won't condone that either. Imagine that!

From a certain POV of my own self interest, the single payer plan (I know it's off the table, never really was there if truth be told) does have an advantage and for lots of employers it could have a possible unintended consequence. Many employees like myself who are not yet of age to get insurance benefits in retirement but at the same time have years at or very near major service thresholds that still pay pretty well might be tempted to move on down the road. In otherwords, you could leave right now on the monthly pension you have but the insurance is to some degree holding you in place. I'd still work doing something else but that was my intent all along no matter what healthcare did. Single payer would just accelerate my plans out of UPS.

If the gov't did put a single payer plan in place paid for by tax contributions and that no matter where you went you paid the tax and you got medical coverage, I honestly have to wonder at UPS how many of us would take the money and bolt for the door? I'm betting a surprising number of folks, both hourly and management would be doing other things the first chance they got!

That's called making lemonade out of lemons!
:happy-very:
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Funny we want gov't to re-write the labor law that does the same thing for UPS in regards to FedEx but we fail to grasp the cartel elsewhere.

Just for the record, I asked my representatives to just abolish the standing labor laws entirely and then let UPS and FedEx compete head to head and then the IBT or whatever union can also try their best. Nobody has advantage, nobody has disadvantage. I had to send those letters on my own time and stamp because UPS won't condone that either. Imagine that!

From a certain POV of my own self interest, the single payer plan (I know it's off the table, never really was there if truth be told) does have an advantage and for lots of employers it could have a possible unintended consequence. Many employees like myself who are not yet of age to get insurance benefits in retirement but at the same time have years at or very near major service thresholds that still pay pretty well might be tempted to move on down the road. In otherwords, you could leave right now on the monthly pension you have but the insurance is to some degree holding you in place. I'd still work doing something else but that was my intent all along no matter what healthcare did. Single payer would just accelerate my plans out of UPS.

If the gov't did put a single payer plan in place paid for by tax contributions and that no matter where you went you paid the tax and you got medical coverage, I honestly have to wonder at UPS how many of us would take the money and bolt for the door? I'm betting a surprising number of folks, both hourly and management would be doing other things the first chance they got!

That's called making lemonade out of lemons!
:happy-very:

You're a true devil, aren't ya ?
Abolish labor laws , again, eh ?

No more 40hr workweek (no OT thereafter), no min. age to work, no vacation pay, no laborboard to help those without a union,no more stat holidays, no minimum wage, etc. (just to name a few things).
I bet you could compete with China very well, then. Probably outbeat China.
Just you wouldn't have a decent life, anymore.

As for your healthcare thoughts, yes, that's the bonus you'll have, plus cheaper percriptions and medical costs.
Would create jobs, and some people could do thier dream, and start a small home business, or just work pt somewhere easy, for some extra cash. Or even do seasonal jobs, (work 6 mths, take 6 off).

But, America is just to conservative for that.
Still stuck with imperial meassurement (canada changed in the 70's to metric).
Then you wonder why you have a trade deficit. No one wants your big machinery, including cars or trucks, that can't be worked or repaired without your "special imperial tools".(wrenches, sockets, etc). And then where to get these special replacement bolts from? Too much hassle.

But, it sure was simple to have metric for your medical, medication, space-missions, and even Olympics, almost forgot computers, too (megabytes, gigabytes). Opps, very important, almost forgot guns (9mm, etc).
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
You're a true devil, aren't ya ?
Abolish labor laws , again, eh ?

No more 40hr workweek (no OT thereafter), no min. age to work, no vacation pay, no laborboard to help those without a union,no more stat holidays, no minimum wage, etc. (just to name a few things).
I bet you could compete with China very well, then. Probably outbeat China.
Just you wouldn't have a decent life, anymore.

As for your healthcare thoughts, yes, that's the bonus you'll have, plus cheaper percriptions and medical costs.
Would create jobs, and some people could do thier dream, and start a small home business, or just work pt somewhere easy, for some extra cash. Or even do seasonal jobs, (work 6 mths, take 6 off).

But, America is just to conservative for that.
Still stuck with imperial meassurement (canada changed in the 70's to metric).
Then you wonder why you have a trade deficit. No one wants your big machinery, including cars or trucks, that can't be worked or repaired without your "special imperial tools".(wrenches, sockets, etc). And then where to get these special replacement bolts from? Too much hassle.

But, it sure was simple to have metric for your medical, medication, space-missions, and even Olympics, almost forgot computers, too (megabytes, gigabytes). Opps, very important, almost forgot guns (9mm, etc).

Gee Klein, someone expresses a POV and living their own life different than yours and you have a panic attack!

Calm down and sit back and enjoy some music ironically called Panic Attack.

[video=youtube;vEu0Yj9-sM4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEu0Yj9-sM4[/video]

I would tell you to have a beer but last time you did that it cost you your job and I don't want to suggest something to you that causes you to commit another irresponsible act!

People like you do have to have someone watching over them 24/7 because even in the most basic areas you lack basic common sense and to act responsibly. Would you at least let those of us who want too, volunteer out of your utopian dream world or are you like so many others you're nothing more than a slave master too and want to force us against our will?


  • Main Entry: slav·ery
  • Pronunciation: \ˈslā-v(ə-)rē\
  • Function: noun
  • Date: 1551
1 : drudgery, toil
2 : submission to a dominating influence
3 a : the state of a person who is a chattel of another b : the practice of slaveholding

Be honest, how is our political system whether republican, democrat or other any different from slavery when you understand that no matter what a minority group wishes to do, it must first and foremost serve the will of the majority no matter what. Land of the Free, think again!

Opps, time to pick cotton for the new Slavemasters of the State.
:peaceful:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
And since we are talking healthcare, you can revolt in your own way by first learning all you can about health and then doing what you can on you own to reduce risk factors. Here's some ideas you might consider but it negates the needs of the Super State so be warned that you might be entering the underground and dabbling in counter-economics although on a very minor scale.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Good Bacteria Fight the Flu[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Here's What You Need To Know[/FONT]



Don't forget Vitamin C
[/FONT]
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Gee Klein, someone expresses a POV and living their own life different than yours and you have a panic attack!

Calm down and sit back and enjoy some music ironically called Panic Attack.

I would tell you to have a beer but last time you did that it cost you your job and I don't want to suggest something to you that causes you to commit another irresponsible act!

People like you do have to have someone watching over them 24/7 because even in the most basic areas you lack basic common sense and to act responsibly. Would you at least let those of us who want too, volunteer out of your utopian dream world or are you like so many others you're nothing more than a slave master too and want to force us against our will?

Be honest, how is our political system whether republican, democrat or other any different from slavery when you understand that no matter what a minority group wishes to do, it must first and foremost serve the will of the majority no matter what. Land of the Free, think again!

Opps, time to pick cotton for the new Slavemasters of the State.
:peaceful:

Sorry, thought I lived in the land of the free, too, and had my beer when I wanted to.
No, but serious, rules, regulations (laws), are in place for a reason.
Lets say you had your own RV Park or camping ground.
(like you own little town). You would have to put rules in place, too.
Such as no firing handguns, no loud music after 10pm, no littering, etc.

Thats the way life is.
Can't be a free for all , maniac world out there.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Sorry, thought I lived in the land of the free, too, and had my beer when I wanted to.
No, but serious, rules, regulations (laws), are in place for a reason.
Lets say you had your own RV Park or camping ground.
(like you own little town). You would have to put rules in place, too.
Such as no firing handguns, no loud music after 10pm, no littering, etc.

Thats the way life is.
Can't be a free for all , maniac world out there.

And are those rules not voluntary? If I don't want to abide by those rules I don't stay at that RV Park. If I want a park with firing guns, loud music and littering, I'd go to an RV park that had such or if none were found and there was demand I might have an economic incentive to open one up.

If however I want such a park and can not find one it comes down to an economic decision of whether parting with the money to park my RV outweighs any benefits from shooting a gun, cranking my sound system or dumping my trash anywhere I please. If the benefit of parking my RV under the rules outweighs any other benefit, I make the economic transaction and abide by the contracted rules agreed to between 2 traders at common law.

Where again is the force or fraud?

As to you beer adventure, guess you assumed wrong didn't you!
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
AARP supports Obamacare and loses over 60,000 members and counting

by DefendUSx August 18, 2009 13:42 CBS News reporting that 60,000 people have dropped their membership in AARP, over it's apparent support of ObamaCare.

Many are joining an alternative group called American Seniors Association. In fact, they are really giving a boost to this organization, which is strongly opposed to ObamaCare.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
AARP supports Obamacare and loses over 60,000 members and counting

by DefendUSx August 18, 2009 13:42 CBS News reporting that 60,000 people have dropped their membership in AARP, over it's apparent support of ObamaCare.

Many are joining an alternative group called American Seniors Association. In fact, they are really giving a boost to this organization, which is strongly opposed to ObamaCare.

Don't matter anyways which card they rip up, by 2017 or 2019 there won't be anymore medicare, if things don't change.
Can't blame them, just like all others, give , give me, until it's gone, who cares about the others after me.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Don't matter anyways which card they rip up, by 2017 or 2019 there won't be anymore medicare, if things don't change.
Can't blame them, just like all others, give , give me, until it's gone, who cares about the others after me.


Yep, that is how our govt. runs everything. medicare, soc. sec., govt. healthcare. there is no change...We can't even fix what we got before we add more. Saw a guy on CNBC yesterday saying we need to step back and fix our stimulus already.
 
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