He said, she said Termination

[klein]

FEDEX,
I appreciate the vote of confidence. I am hopeful..... not sure if they offer me my job back with no pay if I should take the offer....I don't want to go to panel and take the risk of losing out..... but if I win, and receive even some back pay.....what kind of huge target will I be placing on my back......

Hey, I was there and thought about it, as days and weeks went on..
Thought if I do get rehired, first thing is going to center manager and saying, no hard feelings towards you at all. Let us work together.
And in time, everything should pass by, anyways.

 

[1989]

You have nothing to worry about because the union will fight for you and you will get your job back guaranteed.

What's your point fdx boy? He probably shouldn't have been fire in the first place.

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

Went out this am and took some quality pics of my delivery area (it is only two miles from my house).....Got clear images of the location in question including the still posted sign which clearly lists business hours (Friday is still closed)...... also took pics of several other (7 in fact) businesses that I have sheeted religously CLOH over the course of my stay on this route....I compiled a list of the other stops that are constant or weekly stops that have been sheeted as CLOH (there were 15 of them)....I was amazed that I had that many..... I guess you don't realize it till you really start dwelling on your rte... got some really good advice from Ms. PacMan....THANKS!!!!!!
I sent all acquired info to the Hall and my BA... he is supposed to go out early this coming week and conduct interviews before the last chance meeting which is scheduled for the 8th of September..... this is where they (the BA and the Company Rep) discuss what they are going to present at the panel......

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Another option that has not been discussed yet is indirecting pkgs for the 15 CLO H stops that you have. I have 4 CLO H and all 4 have asked me not to indirect their pkgs. Have you asked any of them if they would let you indirect or would they prefer that you did not indirect their pkgs on the day(s) that they are closed?

The fact that the pkg was NDA SVR means that it is something that they were looking for. The fact that they tracked the pkg and flipped out when they saw the CLO H tells me they were looking for that pkg. The fact that they called the center tells me they were looking for that pkg. Hindsight is 20/20 but had you taken the time to indirect the pkg or at least left an info notice the worst that would have happened is you would have received an ODS asking you to go back to reattempt.

I still think escalating this to a corporate complaint resulting in your termination was not warranted and do hope that you get your job back with time served. Dave.

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

Dave,

I've not really spoken to many customers about re-directing.... I have maybe two that I do that for and that was because they asked or suggested I could take them next door or similiar..... I did it because they asked......I know the circumstances of the delivery portrays me in a bad light... Their story is as much a mystery to me as it apparently is to UPS management.... I just don't know????? If I could just get those GPS coordinates that would clear my name.... Customer and UPS can say what they like but if the GPS shows my diad board there at the time the delivery records show I made the attempt..... what more needs to be discussed?

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

As a further post, I might add that a couple of years ago, I compiled a list and gave it to my dispatch supe to have pulled from my car as known closed.....it worked for about a month..... I don't know about other centers but our dispatch is craaazzzzzzy... we have a different plan about 3 or 4 times a week... splits here one day....... there the next......so if adjustments get made to somebody's plan for monday... tuesday, wednesday, thursday, and friday are not going to be affected.....I just gave up trying to get them to do their job.... it is hard enough for me to do mine....

 

[Mike23]

Went out this am and took some quality pics of my delivery area (it is only two miles from my house).....Got clear images of the location in question including the still posted sign which clearly lists business hours (Friday is still closed)...... also took pics of several other (7 in fact) businesses that I have sheeted religously CLOH over the course of my stay on this route....I compiled a list of the other stops that are constant or weekly stops that have been sheeted as CLOH (there were 15 of them)....I was amazed that I had that many..... I guess you don't realize it till you really start dwelling on your rte... got some really good advice from Ms. PacMan....THANKS!!!!!!
I sent all acquired info to the Hall and my BA... he is supposed to go out early this coming week and conduct interviews before the last chance meeting which is scheduled for the 8th of September..... this is where they (the BA and the Company Rep) discuss what they are going to present at the panel......

I would think (and this is just a rookie talking, maybe somebody could back me up or shoot me down but the real importance is you getting the support and advice you need for this) that you sheeting years of CloH would therefore set a precedent? If they wanted to shoot this down earlier they had years to do so? If they claim ignorance then you could claim, 'why's it ok for you to be ignorant but not myself?' After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander? If they want to claim you can't be ignorant after 20 years

Also see if they other driver is willing to speak up on your behalf about CloH if he/she did it in the past as well? Or if they were informed by management to do this?

Also, at least where I am (Calgary) we get new rules, it seems like, weekly that contridict everything that we were told when I started a little over a year ago. Ie...International express pickups need to be entered as nonscheduled as opposed to oncall like it was last year.

Remember the old saying, balls to the walls Good luck, we're all rooting for ya

 

[The Other Side]

I have read all the posts, and looked over all the responses.

There is one question that comes to mind.

"Why have you not mentioned anything about an INDIRECT attempt anywhere as required by standard 3/40 methods?"

Georgiabrown, you also stated that the company said you "were sheeting the pkg someplace else rather than in front of the actual address".

If not for GPS, how would they know this? Telematics is problematic and not 100% accurate as we have shown here in so. cal, but when it comes to placing you somewhere, they are pretty close.

So, if they have you on GPS in a position other than the actual address, then you would be guilty of defrauding the company out of a legitimate delivery attempt. Is it possible that you merely "believed" no one would be there on that day, and make a decision to record the package as closed at a different location to avoid going there?

This does happen to alot of drivers who are not expecting a person to be at the place on a day that no one would otherwise be there...then they are there waiting and the driver does not show up.

If so, maybe you and the agent could just state the facts and take the time off as a suspension and get back to work? Why go thru all this hassle if you truly just made a mistake?

If the companies position is that you "smoked" the pkg and did not make a legitimate delivery attempt, then in panel, the company would have to PROVE you were not there. The fact that there may not be a record of the delivery is NOT proof that you did not attempt the pkg.

Remember, you are INNOCENT until proven guilty, not the other way around. The onis on the company to prove you were not there and did not make an attempt.

Regardless of the "recorded" error (CLO H) this will prove to be irrelevant to the panel. The panel is quite aware of sheeting err's and this would not constitute dishonesty.

What WILL prove dishonesty is if the company can prove you were somewhere else when you recorded the pkg. Just because you have not gone online with telematics yet does not disqualify the company from using it against you. The new contract sealed our fates there.

If they are in testing mode, then they have access to the data and it DOES NOT have to be TURNED On to be used. This is a myth.

I have been trained by the company on the telematics system even though I am the senior steward just so that I can understand the operation of the software.

As I said before, the system is chock-ful of glitches but the majority of info is pretty close to accurate.

My main focus on your case is this:

1) why no indirect attempt as required.
2) Has any package been sheeted as CLO H for that address in the past.
3) Is there an establish business pattern of Closed on that day going back....how long?
4) What do the printed sheets show as a record of delivery/attempt..time is critical.
5) What is the recorded transit pattern of the tracking number involved.
6) Can the company place you at a different location when the stop was completed.

These are my questions for you..

Good luck,

 

[Dustbunny]

Do you really work for Fed-Ex? Not sure what Union you are talking about. My current union will NOT FIGHT for Georgiabrown's job. They will go thru the motions and HOPEFULLY get the job back (after GB does all the legwork alone). My current union can get a job back for someone who really needs to be fired (have been 6-7 times), but rarely helps those who deserve their job back (fired for no good reason for the first time.).

 

[grgrcr88]

Went out this am and took some quality pics of my delivery area (it is only two miles from my house).....Got clear images of the location in question including the still posted sign which clearly lists business hours (Friday is still closed)...... also took pics of several other (7 in fact) businesses that I have sheeted religously CLOH over the course of my stay on this route....I compiled a list of the other stops that are constant or weekly stops that have been sheeted as CLOH (there were 15 of them)....I was amazed that I had that many..... I guess you don't realize it till you really start dwelling on your rte... got some really good advice from Ms. PacMan....THANKS!!!!!!
I sent all acquired info to the Hall and my BA... he is supposed to go out early this coming week and conduct interviews before the last chance meeting which is scheduled for the 8th of September..... this is where they (the BA and the Company Rep) discuss what they are going to present at the panel......

The only question I am having in all this is were you actually at the customer location when you sheeted the package?

I know from experience sometimes we have a business closed on the same day every week and sometimes do not want to take the time to drive out of the way to the business when you know it will be closed when you get there anyway!!

GPS can and will show where your exact location was when the package was scanned.

If you were at the customer location and simply sheeted as CLH to give them an extra day then you should have no wories.

If the company is not using the GPS technology in your case you should put in a written request for that information.

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

88,

I have been on this route for around 5 years.... there are some stops which I have sheeted as CLOH without being at the physical address........This particular stop was NOT one of those cases.... I have only delivered about 10 or less packages to this location in over 5 years.... they are an infrequent recipient of deliveries.... I was not familiar with their hours of operation because of this.... I was at the location when I made the attempt... carried the package to the front door and tried the doorknob... it would not turn, it was locked. It is my understanding that the BA has requested the GPS information from the center manager and has been told it does not exist or is no longer in the system because of the passage of time.....the incident happened on July 24, 2009

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

88,

As a follow up to your post:

"I know from experience sometimes we have a business closed on the same day every week and sometimes do not want to take the time to drive out of the way to the business when you know it will be closed when you get there anyway!!"

The stop in question is on a main street that runs just about dead center of my delivery area... I have stops all along that particular street on a daily basis.... so it was not out of my way to run the stop..... I would have had to drive by the stop regardless in order to run my route, the front door of this stop is approximately 30 feet from the street which is where I have always (without a single exception) parked to make a delivery to this business.

 

[Dustbunny]

GPS doesn't exist!!!! How convenient for them. The tiny piece of info that would clear all this up DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE!!! UPS controls all info, that is why some of us here take pictures of all messages we receive. It is too easy for important info to disappear.

 

[The Other Side]

88,

I have been on this route for around 5 years.... there are some stops which I have sheeted as CLOH without being at the physical address........This particular stop was NOT one of those cases.... I have only delivered about 10 or less packages to this location in over 5 years.... they are an infrequent recipient of deliveries.... I was not familiar with their hours of operation because of this.... I was at the location when I made the attempt... carried the package to the front door and tried the doorknob... it would not turn, it was locked. It is my understanding that the BA has requested the GPS information from the center manager and has been told it does not exist or is no longer in the system because of the passage of time.....the incident happened on July 24, 2009

I am a 20 year driver myself, yet something about your story just dosent add up. You said in teh begining that this stop was always closed on that day and yet, now you say you pulled up, walked up and tried the door only to sheet it as cloH? Why then not clo 1 if you made an actual delivery attempt.

However, if you indeed went thru the trouble of walking up and trying the doorknob, why not then indirect the package and leave a note?

Now, my interest isnt in the use of the cloH code, thats irrelevent to the issue of smoking this stop. I just dont see why the need to use this code, you dont get a stop credit for the use of cloH and why would you cheat yourself out of stop credit?

I have many questions, but the more you say, the more fishy your story is getting.

As a steward, all the facts need to be disclosed. I am not taking sides, I am just trying to find some consistency in your decision making.

The cloH code is used only for those stops where "we" will not be physically going to for the most part, and those stops will not count towards production.

Maybe you dont know this. If you use this code, you are shorting yourself a legitimate stop credit.

This was a next day air saver pkg you claim? Why not give it the level of importance it deserved? Legit knock, indirect, note and such?

I dont see where you believe this was necessary to do.

I am just puzzled.

 

[grgrcr88]

Georgia,

Not trying to question your integrity, I believe you 100% I just had not seen that bit of info in any of your previous posts and thought it might be relevent.

If all you say is true I cannot imagine that any panel would uphold the companies position. That being said they will most likely try to offer you a return to work withh all time served as a suspension. Tough decision you will have to make then, do you allow the company to do whatever they want without regard to the contract but are assured to come back to work, or do you hold them accountable for the back pay and take the chance with the panel!!

Either way I would not want to be in your shoes!! Good luck to ya, and let us know how it comes out!!

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

Last Conversation I had with the business agent was a couple of days ago...."He said, I'm gonna see if I can't work some things and get some good news for you".....to me that means he going to angle to get me put back on with a suspension and no back pay.....don't get me wrong I would be happy to have my job back IN SPITE OF the fact that I am innocent in this situation and AM NOT dishonest.....my goal for my career at UPS has always been 25 and out...I suppose if I am lucky enough to get back to work then I will have to look at the rest of my time with brown as a prison sentence and all the dangers that come with it...watch your back in the shower and don't get shanked in the yard....sad to say it, but with the economy the way it is and apparently UPS's newfound fascination with getting me discharged has changed my mindset in this environment....

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Last Conversation I had with the business agent was a couple of days ago...."He said, I'm gonna see if I can't work some things and get some good news for you".....to me that means he going to angle to get me put back on with a suspension and no back pay.....don't get me wrong I would be happy to have my job back IN SPITE OF the fact that I am innocent in this situation and AM NOT dishonest.....my goal for my career at UPS has always been 25 and out...I suppose if I am lucky enough to get back to work then I will have to look at the rest of my time with brown as a prison sentence and all the dangers that come with it...watch your back in the shower and don't get shanked in the yard....sad to say it, but with the economy the way it is and apparently UPS's newfound fascination with getting me discharged has changed my mindset in this environment....

Hold out for the back pay. Don't let em get away with this. I know, easy for me to say from my cozy little perch. I think I would hold out if I was in your position.

 

[tieguy]

I am a 20 year driver myself, yet something about your story just dosent add up. You said in teh begining that this stop was always closed on that day and yet, now you say you pulled up, walked up and tried the door only to sheet it as cloH? Why then not clo 1 if you made an actual delivery attempt.

However, if you indeed went thru the trouble of walking up and trying the doorknob, why not then indirect the package and leave a note?

Now, my interest isnt in the use of the cloH code, thats irrelevent to the issue of smoking this stop. I just dont see why the need to use this code, you dont get a stop credit for the use of cloH and why would you cheat yourself out of stop credit?

I have many questions, but the more you say, the more fishy your story is getting.

As a steward, all the facts need to be disclosed. I am not taking sides, I am just trying to find some consistency in your decision making.

The cloH code is used only for those stops where "we" will not be physically going to for the most part, and those stops will not count towards production.

Maybe you dont know this. If you use this code, you are shorting yourself a legitimate stop credit.

This was a next day air saver pkg you claim? Why not give it the level of importance it deserved? Legit knock, indirect, note and such?

I dont see where you believe this was necessary to do.

I am just puzzled.

Georgia,
many posters here giving you support and sympathy. That won't help you at the panel. You need to pay attention to the other side and the questions being asked. These you could hear at the panel and these you have to be prepared to answer.

The I've always done it this way and I never knew it was wrong defense is weak. It won't help you.

You mentioned earlier that the divison manager also threw in other write ups and talk withs into the case. Was the discharge strictly for dishonesty or did they also throw in your overall work record.

What documented training have you had. If they have anything in your file that shows you were trained on the correct exception codes to use then that will make things more difficult.

You have to accept the point that their argument is a convincing one. You have twenty years with the company and claim you did not know the code you used was wrong. You have delivered the same route for five years and did not know what you were supposed to do. You can't dispute the argument that you used a holiday exception code on a non holiday.

The question I would have is what would possibly make you think you would use a closed holiday code on a non-holiday. You're not answering it very well though and I don't know that there is a good answer for it.

In either case I don't think the punishment fits the crime. If you're intent was to be dishonest then what was the gain? not filling out an info notice? Laziness.

But at some point when things get better you have to do some soul searching. You clearly did something very odd that led up to these events. The prisoner UPS did not make you code that as a closed holiday. You have to fix yourself and your logic process so you don't face this situation again. Blaming ups even if this discharge is a little extreme does not fix the root problem here.

Not trying to offend you just trying to give you a little honest feedback.

 

[chopstic]

I googled the definition of "holiday". One definition I found is "a day on which one is exempt from work". If you had reason to believe that that particular day is a non-working day for the business, then it is by definition a holiday for that business.

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

Tieguy and Otherside,

I recognize that you have doubts in this situation....having said that I think you are misinformed about of couple of things.

To start you said "You said in teh begining that this stop was always closed on that day and yet, now you say you pulled up, walked up and tried the door only to sheet it as cloH? Why then not clo 1 if you made an actual delivery attempt." Yes the stop was always closed that day and the way that I knew it was closed is because I read the sign on the door after I took the package to the door and tried to gain entry. This is not hard to understand. I have stated that this stop was an infrequent recipient of deliveries....(approximately ten or fewer times in five years) I was not familiar with their hours of operation hence my attempt at their door..... when I realized (after reading the sign that they were not open on Fridays) I sheeted the pkg as closed holiday.

Second part to that.......I was not aware that no credit was given for sheeting a package as CLOH..... If I had been aware that I have been cheating myself out of time all of these years I certainly would have been more reluctant to have done so.....(notice the word reluctant, that means I had no question in my mind that sheeting packages CLOH was any attempt at dishonesty) I am not sure that you are correct on this either....When I sheet a package a CLOH my stop count increases and the piece(s) go into my tally for the days work....not like when a package is sheeted as Missed for instance.

You stated further "However, if you indeed went thru the trouble of walking up and trying the doorknob, why not then indirect the package and leave a note?" As I said in an earlier post it really was not any trouble at all to make this delivery attempt..... the front door is only about 30 from the street, I park in the street to make the delivery and the package was neither bulky, heavy or time constrained (made attempt at 11:52, when 3:00 was commit time) as for indirecting.... it is a museum so therefore it is set back from any nearby locations for indirecting (nearest location would be across the street which is a 3 lane one way with pretty heavy traffic volume speed limit 45, that location is also one which is often closed however..... it is a lawyers office and he is often in court. No secretary).... it has a large side parking lot and a fairly large landscaped yard surrounding the building.....having said that I did not really attempt to redirect this package, actually I did not even consider it....... taking into account it's location and the likelihood of finding a nearby location to leave it....how is that for honesty?



I appreciate the feedback. Once again if I can just get the GPS information which will show without doubt that I was where I said I was during the time in question then this issue should be resolved.....

The discharge (termination letter) says "dishonesty".......nothing else....my previous displinary issues were brought up by the Division HR Manager during the local hearing just so he could be able to bring that to the table if and when this goes to panel... but no my discharge just said dishonesty.

As far as documented training, I could not tell you what training they have on record for me.... I try not to think much about UPS and their brown centered universe when I am not at work. I have a wife, a 4 year old son, am a landlord, a junior in college and an expectant father for the second time (february). My plate is/was full so I try not to concern myself with UPS when I am not in browns.

As one final thought.... try looking at the whole CLOH vs CLO1 situation like this..... try the customers perspective.... that is what we are supposed to be about right?..... the customer maintains a schedule which only has them working 3,4 days of what we consider a normal work week. They work days (Saturday, Sunday) which we do not...regardless of whether I sheet the package as CLO1, CLOH, CAN'T GET OFF THE CRAPPER, OR WHATEVER DESIGNATION YOU CHOOSE that does not mean the customer is going to be open to receive the package (with the disputed exception of this one case, which ain't bad considersing how many I have sheeted this way over the last five plus years) maybe UPS should have a option called CLOWEEKEND because regardless of what UPS wants to call it that is what it is for the customer and the closest option available to me to describe what the circumstances are is CLOH.....so if anything I guess I am guilty of super honesty.... and God forbid we don't want any of that going on around here.....

Having said all of that..... I will sheet the packages however in the hell UPS wants them sheeted from now on if I am lucky enough to get my job back.