Low IQ's and Conservative Values Linked

curiousbrain

Well-Known Member
I'm sure of what I have seen you posting here that you will learn to think for yourself and develop your beliefs based upon your observations of the world.

As I read back through my post I noticed something that did not come across the way I meant.

The word was "garbage" ... I think maybe "junk" is maybe a better word but I am still not satisfied because that is not clear.

What I mean is that you are taught a large and broad knowledge base in grades 1 - 12 and college.
Most of which has no direct bearing on your life once you get out of school. That stuff is junk that you throwaway.

One decides which stuff to throwaway based on their personal experiences and what they observe in the real world.

Schools don't know what each person will be doing so it is broad based knowledge. Almost all become specialist once they get out in the real world. Even at UPS, the generalized training and exposure to all facets of the business is not really done any more.

I will respond at a future date - probably tomorrow after the shift. Your posts demand my attention, as always.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
The purpose of the education is to present to the students a variety of subjects whose knowledge will help them become active contributors to society. When I went to school in the rural deep South which was so much more conservative than anything you are exposed to today. We were taught evolution but church teachings were discussed too. People are going to believe what they want to believe and I have not heard anyone asking that evolution not be taught and replace it with Creationism.
I was taught Pluto was a planet and now it is not.
I believe that anyone that believes in Creationism does so at a faith level and if that is taught, the students will ignore the irrationality of it. Much as we do with the beliefs we are taught at work.
You are aware that Creationism was and is taught to many people over the last 50 years and that these people function and contribute to Society? Anybody that believe half the stuff they are taught in government schools 50 years ago or today are fools anyway so it doesn't really matter what you teach them.
BTW - I do not believe in Creationism in any form - it is simply people trying to reconcile the "infallibility of the written word of the Bible" against the objective analysis of the observed world.

I don't know your age but by the time one is 30 or so, they have replaced all the garbage they learned in school with real life observations - theory only goes so far. That is, unless they are involved in the school system. Teachers teach and do'ers do.

The Dept of Energy was formed in 1977 and most nuclear power plants were built by then. Revert back to the means by which the US managed nuclear materials prior to the formation of the Department of Energy. The problem with forming National Departments is that the things they regulate/control become increasingly politicized and bureaucratic which means wasteful spending.

Ok, but creationism should nto be taught in schools. They get enough fiction watching tv and videos,etc.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Also, you should go to the TED website and view the numerous videos of lectures on education and it becomes very obvious that the US education model is outdated and totally dehumanizing.

Therefore doing a good job preparing the students for the workplace.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Ok, but creationism should not be taught in schools. They get enough fiction watching tv and videos,etc.

When you say not taught, what does that mean?

Not mentioned?

Not included as a sidebar discussion of alternative thoughts?

Not discussed in the realm of evolution is a theory based on observable data in the physical world versus a metaphysical explanation?

I certainly do not support censoring it's discussion in school ... that will only drive people towards it.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Ok, but creationism should nto be taught in schools. They get enough fiction watching tv and videos,etc.
Oh really? and why is that? because you believe in evolution that teaches that everything comes from one source?... sludge? and just how did it all begin? ...... you have your faulty faith too
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
Oh really? and why is that? because you believe in evolution that teaches that everything comes from one source?... sludge? and just how did it all begin? ...... you have your faulty faith too

I could go on about evolutionary theory. But Im sure it is just a click away for you to go to yourself. You choose to be blind to our history as a life form on this planet. So be it. But even the catholic church has come around to reason and evolution.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
I could go on about evolutionary theory. But Im sure it is just a click away for you to go to yourself. You choose to be blind to our history as a life form on this planet. So be it. But even the catholic church has come around to reason and evolution.
Not really.... go on and on about evolution please.... Ive done my homework and it all boils down to your faith.... you choose to believe that everything came from one source without being able to prove where it all began or even where humans come from exactly.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
Not really.... go on and on about evolution please.... Ive done my homework and it all boils down to your faith.... you choose to believe that everything came from one source without being able to prove where it all began or even where humans come from exactly.

I thought you already knew the answer: Adam and Eve!!
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Not really.... go on and on about evolution please.... Ive done my homework and it all boils down to your faith.... you choose to believe that everything came from one source without being able to prove where it all began or even where humans come from exactly.

Take a close look at your little toe, or consider your appendix. There are thousands of documented evolutionary changes in the animal world. Look at the way animals have adapted to their environment as it changed. Science has proof of the evolutionary process taking place, yet you deny it. Or do you believe that God gave animals the capability to adapt?
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Take a close look at your little toe, or consider your appendix. There are thousands of documented evolutionary changes in the animal world. Look at the way animals have adapted to their environment as it changed. Science has proof of the evolutionary process taking place, yet you deny it. Or do you believe that God gave animals the capability to adapt?
yet there is no step by step process showing every evolutionary place of every change... at evolutions best it says that monkeys and humans share a common ancestor, yet never shows that exact link (because it cant). It also cant show how humans came from sludge. There is a lot of ancestry that would come from ONE original source...... "everything" comes from it...... right? Evolution can show change in DNA code but cannot show new DNA information that never existed.... thats why birds will always be birds,,, felines will always be felines,,, and humans will always will have human DNA in some form
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
When you say not taught, what does that mean?

Not mentioned?

Not included as a sidebar discussion of alternative thoughts?

Not discussed in the realm of evolution is a theory based on observable data in the physical world versus a metaphysical explanation?

I certainly do not support censoring it's discussion in school ... that will only drive people towards it.

I would agree and I know many christians want this but I think in a truly pure educational forum of true inquiry, especially with younger kids, it may prove far more problematic for christians than the current situation. Some cans of worms in the long run are best left not opened.

To say that the evolutionary process is just another form of faith based belief is not entirely correct either. But what happens in the context of the educational classroom when someone also wants to discuss the Sumerian creation story in the Enuma Elish that date to around 1800 BCE in written form on a stone stele? How about the written creation story of Egypt that dates from 2700 to 2200 BCE? In the context of the bible, what if someone wants to raise the issue of the documentary hypothesis in regards to how and when the bible was written? Would christians be prepared to have their children discuss the fact that in Genesis chapter 1 the creation order is literally in reverse of the creation order in Chapter 2? Or that god in one chapter is called by the name of the Canaanite chief diety (El) while in the other story god was called by the name Yahweh.

On the one hand I can understand christians wanting the creation story to be held as true because to be honest, if there is no creation story, there is no fall of man, no original sin, so sinful nature of man and therefore man is not sinful and therefore in no need of an salvation so in that context I can understand the huge importance the creation story is to the faith itself. However, I do think christians fail to consider the many unintended consequences of opening up a discussion on the creation story and where that could end up especially being discussed among impressionable children. Does one not think for a moment that a parent like myself would not arm his kid loaded for bear going into a classroom where the biblical creation story is taught along side evolution?

I'm happy with the idea that science can't prove the source of power that took place in the first few gazillionth of a second of the big bang and that's true, science can't and science generally admits that and the same is true in regards to a primordial soup. It is just as speculative as a creation myth and that is right to point that out but to then take that and discount obvious evidence of later evolutionary forces at work IMO begins to discredit your correct points on the soup bowl. There are very respected and knowledgeable people who are christians and yet still believe in evolutionary forces in life on planet earth. A good example is Dr. Bob Bakker who as a paleontologist was the one who first suggested that modern birds evolved from dinosaurs and this is now accepted as fact by almost all scientists and yet Dr. Bob as he likes being called is a Pentecostal Preacher so the idea that science of evolution and the bible are in conflict is just not true IMO.


BTW Hoax, this post is not directed at you per se but just using your post to make a greater point on the issue.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
I am glad you at least admit that "to each his own" belief is what it is (or at least it ultimately appears that way). No matter what your "faith" is you have to believe your way is right. When talking origins science, science can only go so far. It takes a real faith that what you learn is true. No different in biblical teaching and creation science. Everyone needs to do their own research and reach a conclusion.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
lol.. ok,,,, but if something could come from nothing.... now that would be a breakthrough

True but the way I see it, in ALL cases, something doesn't come from nothing.

Hmmm, bet you didn't expect to see me say that now did ya!
:wink2:

BTW: Read the chapter 2 creation story from the standpoint of man moving from being a hunter-gather to an agrarian type existence and the story begins to reflect a much more observant writer as to the nature of mankind 10k years ago as he began a transitional process. Adam being made of the soil and in fact the hebrew for Adam being more a transliteration from the word aw-dam or ha-adom (the man) meaning ruddy or red which again can reflect the color of some soils. If you have a Strong's Concordance, you can look up the words translated Adam and man to see what I'm talking about.

Adam was instructed in regards to the garden almost in similar ways someone might tell a person to work the land and what about the word translated garden? In the hebrew it means a walled up or protected area or in another sense you could say that Eden instead of a garden was a kingdom or early city state of some kind. The hebrew word translated garden being gan gan meaning fenced but reflects back to a primitive root word ganan or gaw-nan meaning protect or defend.

When you consider the way the early "Kingdom" of Israel and it's religious symbols in the temple reflect back to the presence of god in the garden, the idea that Jesus was the last Adam so to speak, the idea of the Eden story begins in a way that early semitic man might have by oral traditions told his story of transitioning from hunter-gatherers to agrarian and then with the early Patriarchs, the building of the first city states and organized empires. The metaphysical aspects and the moral implications may have been added later, say during a Mosiac influence or priestly influence (see the "P" source in the documentary hypothesis) and the 2 stories are thus combined into the Eden story we know today.

These are the kinds of discussions that can open up as a result of discussing the creation story and I do agree they have merit but are christians ready for this? Especially in the face of impressionable children? I'd warmly welcome it but I can see real problems especially for fundamental christians.

And even the bible is evolutionary. Read it in relation to god, how god interacts with man and even the nature of how god manifests himself and god is a idea in continuing flux. For example, Adam and even Abraham walked with god almost in the same manner and we would walk with each other (even ate a meal with) but Moses was not allowed to see god except as a manifestation of a burning bush or as a mountain spewing fire and smoke. No man but the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies out of fear of seeing god and thus be struck down with death. And it's the Moses god that so resembles the Midianite volcano god and it's worth noting that Moses spent much time in Midian before returning to Egypt and this region does have active volcanic activity. And then in early means, god had man redeem for his sin by one measure of sacrifice and then during the temple era of ancient Israel, the method of sacrifice was done in numerous methods and then we have the final sacrifice in Jesus. Regardless of the reasons, it's still a evolving process to salvation throughout time so god's way are evolving ones. Can we be sure he won't change his mind again?

Again, are christians prepared to have their children exposed to such ideas and such discussions in the first place?
 

texan

Well-Known Member
True but the way I see it, in ALL cases, something doesn't come from nothing.

Hmmm, bet you didn't expect to see me say that now did ya!
:wink2:

BTW: Read the chapter 2 creation story from the standpoint of man moving from being a hunter-gather to an agrarian type existence and the story begins to reflect a much more observant writer as to the nature of mankind 10k years ago as he began a transitional process. Adam being made of the soil and in fact the hebrew for Adam being more a transliteration from the word aw-dam or ha-adom (the man) meaning ruddy or red which again can reflect the color of some soils. If you have a Strong's Concordance, you can look up the words translated Adam and man to see what I'm talking about.

Adam was instructed in regards to the garden almost in similar ways someone might tell a person to work the land and what about the word translated garden? In the hebrew it means a walled up or protected area or in another sense you could say that Eden instead of a garden was a kingdom or early city state of some kind. The hebrew word translated garden being gan gan meaning fenced but reflects back to a primitive root word ganan or gaw-nan meaning protect or defend.

When you consider the way the early "Kingdom" of Israel and it's religious symbols in the temple reflect back to the presence of god in the garden, the idea that Jesus was the last Adam so to speak, the idea of the Eden story begins in a way that early semitic man might have by oral traditions told his story of transitioning from hunter-gatherers to agrarian and then with the early Patriarchs, the building of the first city states and organized empires. The metaphysical aspects and the moral implications may have been added later, say during a Mosiac influence or priestly influence (see the "P" source in the documentary hypothesis) and the 2 stories are thus combined into the Eden story we know today.

These are the kinds of discussions that can open up as a result of discussing the creation story and I do agree they have merit but are christians ready for this? Especially in the face of impressionable children? I'd warmly welcome it but I can see real problems especially for fundamental christians.

And even the bible is evolutionary. Read it in relation to god, how god interacts with man and even the nature of how god manifests himself and god is a idea in continuing flux. For example, Adam and even Abraham walked with god almost in the same manner and we would walk with each other (even ate a meal with) but Moses was not allowed to see god except as a manifestation of a burning bush or as a mountain spewing fire and smoke. No man but the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies out of fear of seeing god and thus be struck down with death. And it's the Moses god that so resembles the Midianite volcano god and it's worth noting that Moses spent much time in Midian before returning to Egypt and this region does have active volcanic activity. And then in early means, god had man redeem for his sin by one measure of sacrifice and then during the temple era of ancient Israel, the method of sacrifice was done in numerous methods and then we have the final sacrifice in Jesus. Regardless of the reasons, it's still a evolving process to salvation throughout time so god's way are evolving ones. Can we be sure he won't change his mind again?

Again, are christians prepared to have their children exposed to such ideas and such discussions in the first place?

Your study and knowledge of the Bible is impressive sir.

I have ran these thoughts through (your post above) my head many times in an attempt to understand in the past.

Years ago I had an encounter with Elohim when I put my faith in His Son Yeshua, Ben Elohim.
So something happened on the inside with my human spirit that no one can take away.
It is not that I no longer question, but that I trust Him, and Know that He is.

I am not eloquent with words, and I am not a good debater.

But again your post is impressive.

Sheh-Elohim Yivarech Otcha
Shalom
 
To say that the evolutionary process is just another form of faith based belief is not entirely correct either.
I did say something close to this so I don't know for sure if that is what you are drawing from. I said that, in effect, science is a theory that is accepted with a faith that the studies and tests are all correct and none are fabricated or tweaked to show the results they want.

True but the way I see it, in ALL cases, something doesn't come from nothing.

For something to come from nothing there must be a miracle involved.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Your study and knowledge of the Bible is impressive sir.

I have ran these thoughts through (your post above) my head many times in an attempt to understand in the past.

Years ago I had an encounter with Elohim when I put my faith in His Son Yeshua, Ben Elohim.
So something happened on the inside with my human spirit that no one can take away.
It is not that I no longer question, but that I trust Him, and Know that He is.

I am not eloquent with words, and I am not a good debater.

But again your post is impressive.

Sheh-Elohim Yivarech Otcha
Shalom

Appreciate the compliment. I would highly encourage every christian to read the bible cover to cover and to use concordances and lexicons looking back as best as possible to original wording. Also don't be afraid to consult biblical archeology in relation to the actual source texts that made up the bible. We don't have original, first person documents but at best copies of copies of copies. Understanding this and understanding how mistranslations can and do occur IMO makes one better appreciate the bible as it truly is and yet also gives one a far better understanding of the book and the people who influenced it's presence in our lives today. Also learn to read the bible horizonially rather than just vertically. What I mean is when several books or even chapters within a book are covering the same subject and timeline, read across to compare passage to passage that covers the same subject or topic. In the Old Testament doing this begins to show elements of the documentary hypothesis and a bias in the text as for example written from a Northern Kingdom POV of Israel and another may show a bias from the Southern Kingdom POV. It's very important to remember that after King David the Kingdom of Israel split and remained so for around 400 years until both were overthrown and the biblical writers of those times clearly showed a political bias in the stories told.

When one is able to see the bible not only as a source of spiritual truth but also a guide for societal organization even political structure, a history and yes even a book of science, it presents itself as a far more interesting read than many may think. Even god is shown with different personalities and even names, Elohim for example is associated with Northern Kingdom sources while the name Yahweh was associated with the Southern Kingdom. Elohim was described as a god who would physically manifest himself to man, Genesis 18 where god came to visit Abraham and Sarah and even shared a meal but then in Exodus, god or Yahweh would be a mystery and take the form of a burning bush (you could not know his name either) or a fire belching mountain as a symbol of power.

Karen Armstrong's "A History of God" is a very worthwhile view in regards to historical research on the names of god and how in various settings the writers manifested the view of god. Gaining a view from historicity for any student of the bible is very important IMO to understanding the message it brings.

Best wishes in your own search for personal and spiritual truth!
 
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