May I present to you, your government health plan!

[brett636]

As you can see our intelligent overlords have come up with a simple, efficient, and cost effective health plan. I feel its time we dump our private health care system in favor of this wonderful system illustrated above.

 

[Jones]

Eh, not saying anything one way or the other about government run health care, but the fact that this chart was put together by republican opponents of the plan doesn't say a whole lot for it's objectivity .

 

[brett636]

Eh, not saying anything one way or the other about government run health care, but the fact that this chart was put together by republican opponents of the plan doesn't say a whole lot for it's objectivity .

Considering its based on a 1200+ page bill this chart may be missing a few more government agencies.

 

[Jones]

Considering its based on a 1200+ page bill this chart may be missing a few more government agencies.

If you could find an objective source for that information, I might believe you.

 

[av8torntn]

You guys are correct that chart probably over simplifies things.

 

[Jones]

Well, from looking at it seems that most of the departments, committees, bureaus, etc that are listed are already in existence and performing essentially the same functions. I have no doubt that this bill, if passed, will add in some measure to the already significant complexity of our bloated government system, but I doubt that it will be to the degree that this chart implies. More like one more drop in already full bucket.

 

[av8torntn]

 

[brett636]

Well, from looking at it seems that most of the departments, committees, bureaus, etc that are listed are already in existence and performing essentially the same functions. I have no doubt that this bill, if passed, will add in some measure to the already significant complexity of our bloated government system, but I doubt that it will be to the degree that this chart implies. More like one more drop in already full bucket.

A trillion dollar healthcare bill is a drop in the bucket? The fact that these healthcare decisions and dollars needs to be routed through so many government agencies is a huge red neon sign flashing STOP. Government social programs and failure go hand in hand, and this chart proves it.

 

[Jones]

A trillion dollar healthcare bill is a drop in the bucket? The fact that these healthcare decisions and dollars needs to be routed through so many government agencies is a huge red neon sign flashing STOP. Government social programs and failure go hand in hand, and this chart proves it.

You're confusing cost with complexity, the two are not necessarily correlated. They're going to get that trillion dollars by through taxation, and the system to do that, the IRS, is already in place. It's a lot of money, but a simple process. They just raise taxes and voila!, they have the money. Most of the agencies that are going to be spending that money are already in place and well versed in the art of spending taxpayer dollars.
I'm no particular fan of this health care initiative, but I've reached a point in my life where I'm resigned to the fact that I have only one vote, and very little impact on what the government is going to do on a regular basis.
I do know enough not to trust the RNC or their press releases to give me any objective facts. If you posted some chart from the DNC telling us how great it was all going to be I wouldn't believe that either. I can assure you that chart doesn't prove a thing beyond some intern in Kevin Brady's office having some rudimentary skills with microsoft paint.
When it's all said and done we'll probably get something like this, and it will still cost 4 trillion or whatever

 

[brett636]

You're confusing cost with complexity, the two are not necessarily correlated. They're going to get that trillion dollars by through taxation, and the system to do that, the IRS, is already in place. It's a lot of money, but a simple process. They just raise taxes and voila!, they have the money. Most of the agencies that are going to be spending that money are already in place and well versed in the art of spending taxpayer dollars.
I'm no particular fan of this health care initiative, but I've reached a point in my life where I'm resigned to the fact that I have only one vote, and very little impact on what the government is going to do on a regular basis.
I do know enough not to trust the RNC or their press releases to give me any objective facts. If you posted some chart from the DNC telling us how great it was all going to be I wouldn't believe that either. I can assure you that chart doesn't prove a thing beyond some intern in Kevin Brady's office having some rudimentary skills with microsoft paint.
When it's all said and done we'll probably get something like this, and it will still cost 4 trillion or whatever:

Cost and complexity do go hand in hand. Every agency that these healthcare decisions get routed through has to take something to cover their own costs. Maybe they have to hire extra help, install new computers, lease or buy more office space. All this increases costs with little to no benefit to the taxpayer. Our healthcare system needs to be fixed, but you don't fix a leak in the roof by blowing up the entire building. Lets be honest here, out of the 48 or so million Americans this is supposed to help only 8-10 million actually need the insurance. The rest comprise of illegal immigrants, people who already qualify for government assistance but do not either want to apply or know how to apply for it, and those that can afford health insurance but choose not to do so because they either don't want it or are between jobs and currently don't have it, but will so in the future.

I am also one person with one vote, but the more people this issue gets discussed with is potentially more people calling the Congressional switchboard to tell their congress person to vote NO.

BTW, if anyone is interested in calling their congress person the number is(and I am not kidding): 1-877-SOBuSOB Now get to calling!

 

[Jones]

Cost and complexity do go hand in hand. Every agency that these healthcare decisions get routed through has to take something to cover their own costs. Maybe they have to hire extra help, install new computers, lease or buy more office space.

Well sure, I agree with that. But the chart is suggesting that the bill would create the bureaucracy that it depicts. It won't, that bureaucracy already exists.

All this increases costs with little to no benefit to the taxpayer. Our healthcare system needs to be fixed, but you don't fix a leak in the roof by blowing up the entire building. Lets be honest here, out of the 48 or so million Americans this is supposed to help only 8-10 million actually need the insurance. The rest comprise of illegal immigrants, people who already qualify for government assistance but do not either want to apply or know how to apply for it, and those that can afford health insurance but choose not to do so because they either don't want it or are between jobs and currently don't have it, but will so in the future.

8-10 million is a lot. If you're one of those 8-10 million, it's everything.
I watched an interesting interview on Bill Moyers with Wendell Potter, the former head of public relations for Cigna Health Care, which coincidentally is our PPO here in local 639 (They are currently trying to put us through the ringer on a charge that they are supposed to pay, but that's another story). The scene he describes at the health care fair in Wise, Va. is pretty disturbing. You would think that in a country as rich as ours we could do a little better than a "doctors without borders" style intervention at a county fair ground for our rural poor.

 

[brett636]

Well sure, I agree with that. But the chart is suggesting that the bill would create the bureaucracy that it depicts. It won't, that bureaucracy already exists.

Yes, a bureaucracy that is already slow, inefficient, and is famous for its inability to get anything right. Now we are going to put our healthcare under the guise of that same bureaucracy?

8-10 million is a lot. If you're one of those 8-10 million, it's everything.
I watched an interesting interview on Bill Moyers with Wendell Potter, the former head of public relations for Cigna Health Care, which coincidentally is our PPO here in local 639 (They are currently trying to put us through the ringer on a charge that they are supposed to pay, but that's another story). The scene he describes at the health care fair in Wise, Va. is pretty disturbing. You would think that in a country as rich as ours we could do a little better than a "doctors without borders" style intervention at a county fair ground for our rural poor.

So lets come up with solutions that empower that 8-10 million to purchase their own healthcare. Not burden the other 290 million of us that are able to get or currently have health insurance. Indiana did just that when it instituted the HIP program or "Healthy Indiana Plan". It allows families who otherwise would not have health insurance the ability to purchase low cost health insurance. In fact my state's budget has been run so well by our Gov. Mitch Daniels that we not only can run such a program, but have been cutting taxes as well.

The program proposed by house democrats mandates health insurance to everyone, increases tax burdens on not only wealthy Americans, the ones who invest in this great nation, but small businesses who have to either raise prices to cover the new costs, layoff employees, or close up shop. None of those options are sound when we have an economy in the shape its in and is based on small business. As a UPS driver I pickup small businesses, and if enough of them close myself and or fellow drivers could be out a job.

 

[Jones]

Yes, a bureaucracy that is already slow, inefficient, and is famous for its inability to get anything right. Now we are going to put our healthcare under the guise of that same bureaucracy?

So lets come up with solutions that empower that 8-10 million to purchase their own healthcare. Not burden the other 290 million of us that are able to get or currently have health insurance. Indiana did just that when it instituted the HIP program or "Healthy Indiana Plan". It allows families who otherwise would not have health insurance the ability to purchase low cost health insurance. In fact my state's budget has been run so well by our Gov. Mitch Daniels that we not only can run such a program, but have been cutting taxes as well.

The program proposed by house democrats mandates health insurance to everyone, increases tax burdens on not only wealthy Americans, the ones who invest in this great nation, but small businesses who have to either raise prices to cover the new costs, layoff employees, or close up shop. None of those options are sound when we have an economy in the shape its in and is based on small business. As a UPS driver I pickup small businesses, and if enough of them close myself and or fellow drivers could be out a job.

HIP sounds great, but you do realize that it is funded by Medicaid, paid for by the taxpayers, and controlled by the federal government. Are you telling me that you would be in favor of expanding Medicaid to provide coverage to an additional 8-10 million people? I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but there's no question that it will cost a lot of taxpayer money and increase the size of government bureaucracy, which you seem to be against.

 

[pickup]

As you can see our intelligent overlords have come up with a simple, efficient, and cost effective health plan. I feel its time we dump our private health care system in favor of this wonderful system illustrated above.

you can combine candyland, monopoly, the game of life, chutes and ladders, and a host of other games into one game and it will still be less confusing than this chart

 

[pickup]

here's another very significant twist: someone mentioned the added cost of running a business with this plan. One more incentive to have your staff consist of illegal aliens that you pick up off the street. Undocumented workers means your business doesn't have to pay for their healthcare.

Dear lord, I wish there were a republican majority in the senate or at least just one more republican so that there could be a filibuster.

 

[Babagounj]

I kinda like the "home visit" idea.
Where the gov't decides if you or your family has had the right shots. Where they can drop by your house at any time.
Or the part where private health insurance becomes illegal. Now that will really help this economy to start humming again when all those hmo employees are let go.
Try to remember that theses great "reforms " are coming from the same people who currently provide healthcare to The American Indians, which is so bad that many have to have their own private insurance to cover the gaps that the US Government neglects.
Or the VA system that is so broken today that no one has any idea of how to fix it.
Just remember that if you are over the age of 60, your gov't has already written your health off.

 

[pickup]

I kinda like the "home visit" idea.
Where the gov't decides if you or your family has had the right shots. Where they can drop by your house at any time.
Or the part where private health insurance becomes illegal. Now that will really help this economy to start humming again when all those hmo employees are let go.
Try to remember that theses great "reforms " are coming from the same people who currently provide healthcare to The American Indians, which is so bad that many have to have their own private insurance to cover the gaps that the US Government neglects.
Or the VA system that is so broken today that no one has any idea of how to fix it.
Just remember that if you are over the age of 60, your gov't has already written your health off.

can you give any links to the "homevisit " part?
I tried looking it up but can't find anything.

 

[pickup]

I kinda like the "home visit" idea.
Where the gov't decides if you or your family has had the right shots. Where they can drop by your house at any time.

And I believe there is a provision where your medical records are now going to be in "electronic form" and centralized in a data bank somewhere. So that the government will be able to see all the information from all the medical visits and issues a person has had or has " they will be able to determine at a glance which shots you haven't got that they think you should have.

Ironically, you will probably get paid a visit by someone who is in worst physical and mental shape than you and that person will be telling you how you can get healthier. Ever notice that the ones who catch the flu are the ones who got the flu shots? (and the government whitewashes that fact with the statement that the flu virus they caught was of a different strain than the one they were vaccinated for)

Maybe they will make multiple uses of these homevisits. In addition to using the visit to tell you about the wonders that GlaxoSmithKline, Phizer, et al are making available for you. Perhaps the visitor can take a peak at the books on your shelves and cross check them against a government provided list in order to determine if you are cultivating and thinking "ungerman thoughts" or not .

Or maybe the home visitor can carry a detector that will pick up on high amounts of nitrogen and if it goes off, that will trigger a later visit from homeland security. And if the homevisitor sees you don't have a television, he/she will definitely refer you for a future mental evaluation because after all, this person(the home owner) is passing up chances to see the savior, Obama and no one in his right mind would do that.