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Blue in Brown
An excellent point.
Oh Boy! Here we go
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Blue in Brown
I don't see adequate mitigation here. If these workers are in this country illegally and have made no attempt to secure proper documentation, then they must be held accountable.I don't know for sure but it seems the I-9 certification was originally to be done by almost all employers but only on New Hires. Anyone remember "Simpson-Mazzoli;" the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, which applied only from that day foreward. That's why those of us hired before the Act didn't have to be verified, and don't have to be verified now even if we went to kindergarten with Osama. (He was such a hellraiser even then.)The bill contained a limited amnesty provision incidentally.
The Act required employers to verify the documents of New Hires but specifically prohibited re-verifying people thereafter. Look on your official bulletin board at UPS and you should see a light blue poster saying that the employer may not verify before actually hireing a job applicant, and cannot re-verify current employees!!!!!!! The verification on New Hires hired after November 1986 must be kept for three years.
However, recent government contracts contain a clause that all employees who may handle the contracted items must be currently verified. Thus, although the government requires it, it is only a requirement if UPS voluntarily applies for and gets a government contract. It's like the requirements to recite all that safety dribble. The government requires it only because UPS was repeatedly caught violating OSHA regulations, was fined heavily, and UPS cut "plea-deals" known as a Corporate Settlement Agreements, to lessen the fines and the extent of the charges. Obligating us to recite the safety dribble gets UPS off the hook, or at least on a smaller hook.
So when UPS says, "It's not us, it's the government making us do it," that's not quite true.
Since applying for a government contract is an optional thing, if any bargaining unit member looses their job, they may have a case that UPS got the government contract without negotiating with the Union over the adverse effects as labor law requires. My concern is not for true illegals that snuck across the border, but for long time residents and union members with strong cases to make.
Let's wait and see exactly who looses their jobs. It's too early to tell, and we don't know the particulars in each case. I do know of one driver with nine and a half years with UPS, who I'm told came to the USA as a child, grew up and was educated here, and who is no longer working. Not sure of the details, or if he is gone for good or on some kind of emergency I-9 related leave or what. And here I am, hired (long) before 1986 and so exempt from verification.
Thank you for saying this Upstate. This political hot topic frustrates me to no end and it's something I'm extremely passionate about. It's not that they're all criminals or are lazy, it's that they're trying to help their families the best way they can and know how to. It was no different 403 years ago (yes, 403 years ago, for those who need a history refresher, Jamestown was settled in Virginia in 1607 as the first British colony) when the English began to settle their colonies along the eastern seaboard, except they were stealing land from the Native Americans at that point. So it's kind of a monkey see, monkey do" theory at work here. Except the only thing the aliens are doing is "stealing" work that natural citizens don't want to or refuse to do because we feel it's beneath us or beneath our pay grade because we want bigger and better and more of it. Americans are so entitled and so wrapped up in themselves they don't/can't/won't see the bigger picture (gee, that sounds familiar). Nor do they understand the ramifications of early American history. They're only doing the same thing our ancestors did 400 years ago. Yet, we still deny the Native Americans their rightful land and give them a "lease" on the land which they reside on.
These people want nothing more than to become residents and citizens and make everything right not only for them, but for their families. I have several friends who have recently become residents and citizens after their parents brought them here as small children. They've graduated from school here, they speak better English than most people that were actually born in the United States, and they work very hard for what they have. They came here under circumstances out of their control and actually worked diligently to make their unfortunate circumstances right in the eyes of the government and narrow-minded individuals. They still get crap for it just because of a stupid stereotype. Either way, they can't win. Regardless of their status situation, I'm still proud to call these people my friends and family.
Camping Nana
Well-Known Member
I take issue with the "red" remarks above - IF they REALLY want "nothing more than to become residents and citizens" then they WILL have proof of their efforts to do so. If they have no proof that they have taken (or even begun taking) the steps to obtain residency and/or citizenship legally - then they just want what America has to offer - free and clear.
As a previous poster stated - I have NO problem with those who come into this country LEGALLY and take all the necessary steps to become citizens and/or LEGAL residents! I admire and respect them! I have several close friends who have done so - from several different foreign countries. But I also have been acquainted with some who are illegal --
JUST FOLLOW THE GUIDELINES !!!! That's all I ask! I totally respect and admire the ones referred to above in the "blue" bolded!
Highwayman
Well-Known Member
I have heard that in certain areas when these "undocumented" workers heard about this they just stopped coming to work.
More often than not, there's an issue of money, which is something they can't make a lot of here, even after they send a vast majority of what little they do make back home to the family that was left behind. Because they're willing to take a huge pay cut because someone like you or me wouldn't want to work in the fields, I'll admit it. I don't want to work in the fields, not because I feel it's beneath me, but because it'd be a huge pay cut for me because I've worked for what I have. They're doing the exact same thing.
It takes a lot of time and money to become a resident or citizen. More so to become a resident than a citizen. Again, I will reiterate that more often than not, people are here "illegally" due to circumstances out of their control. Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't people here of their own volition, because that's certainly the case for a lot as well. Let us never mind the fact that a large portion of the western United States actually belonged to Mexico before we got our grubby and greedy hands on it, no matter how much we paid for it after a war that started because Americans couldn't agree with Mexico's laws.
What is truly wrong about this whole immigration thing is the amount of arrogance and ignorance Americans have. What irks me to no end is that it is primarily Mexicans that are targeted by this, you know, the ones that pick our produce from the fields and orchards, wash our dishes at a restaurant, clean up after our mess in a movie theatre or a weekend away in a hotel. Jobs we'd stay away from because you find it's beneath you or it's not the pay you were looking for, or we feel we're way too over qualified for, that's not what we spent $20,000 a year for 4-5 years to do. Never mind those from Europe, China, Japan or any other country who let their work or school visas expire and continue to stay here, some for decades, undetected. But what saddens me the most is that very, very few realise that legal or illegal immigrants are people too. No matter the language barriers, their feelings get hurt just as easily as ours do and to be exiled, reviled and humiliated only worsens the matter. How would you like to see the news and see your people beaten down and ridiculed? There would be a public outrage. How would you like it if you were in that position? Look at it from a HUMANITY standpoint. We're all people and deserve to be treated as such regardless of status.
It seems to me that we have forgotten what was etched into the tablet of the Statue of Liberty.
“The New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
705red
Browncafe Steward
I am using your quote to respnd to many, The problem here is that many people are in the process of doing it the right way, its not as easy as going to a court house and getting a mariage certificate. It is a timely process that takes months and even years. That is a beef that I have with the process.
UPS is saying March 31st is the deadline, not the government, and this is where I have a problem. We will lose employees, good employees because they have dates in April, May and June to finalize their papers. UPS says too bad we are giving you til the 31st.
You will see lawsuits against UPS, you dont have to like it, but imagine if you couldnt work here anymore. For the most part everyone of us has immigrant blood in us.
raceanoncr
Well-Known Member
I was when I came back in '69 but the Doc cleared it up and ain't had no trouble since!!!!!
Benben
Working on a new degree, Masters in BS Detecting!
"Most of the jobs that these people are more than happy to do Americans are too lazy to do. Day laborers, migrant farm workers, etc., are issued temporary work visas but are not citizens.
Where I live we have a number of apple orchards. We also have 10% unemployment. You would think the logical thing to do would be to hire some of these people to pick, sort, crate and ship the apples. The orchards have to bring workers in from Jamaica to pick the apples and prune the trees and use locals to sort, crate and ship because the locals are just too lazy to do the work. The workers are flown in and housed in dorm style housing. They send back 80% of their wages to their families. They also love to play the lottery, especially Power Ball."
>>ENOUGH OF THIS #$%^!!! Lazy my ass!! You need to stop regurgitating junk that others say without actually thinking about it, makes you look like an idiot! If the employers pay a fair days wage for the work done then you would fill those jobs with "americans"! 9.4% unemployeement attests to that!! Instead, they bring in "illegals" (which in and of its-self should be a crime) pay them pennies on the dollar and justify this by saying, "we can not get americans to do the work!" Nobody but illegals will pick up trash for 8 hours and take $20 as payment when you can go flip burgers for $7. PAY WHAT THE JOB IS WORTH AND YOU WILL HAVE AMERICANS DOING THE WORK!!
SO LETS THINK THIS THROUGH!! "they" come here illegally, get paid a rate, that even if they didn't send 80% back home(READ REMOVING AMERICAN DOLLARS FROM OUR ECONOMY) would keep them under the poverty level. They do this by "undercutting" american workers BY THE WAY!! This, in-turn, forces them to "live" (I use the word loosely) together. Cramming 2 and 3 families into residences that are zoned to be single family dwelings. This drives DOWN the values of neighboring properties. Why should anybody "have to" live in "DORM STYLE HOUSING" to make $20 a day? FAIR DAYS PAY FOR A FAIR DAYS WORK! Couple this with their lack of health insurance which sees them clogging our county health departments which forces taxpayers to cover! OH NO, I used the word taxpayers!! I love it when idiots calim they pay taxes! How do you pay taxes without a valid SSN? You use a bogus number or someone else's, and claim 9 deductions thus getting virtually nothing taken out of your check. THATS NOT PAYING TAXES!!
ANd who in this tread tried to claim that the majority of illegals are here not by choice?!?! WHAT IN THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?! Are you trying to say there is some MASSIVE reverse slave trade FORCING people into the US?!?! THEY ARE HERE BY CHOICE....THEIR CHOICE!!! USE YOUR HEAD BEFORE OPENING YOUR MOUTH...Think things through, your life will be better that way!!
Where I live we have a number of apple orchards. We also have 10% unemployment. You would think the logical thing to do would be to hire some of these people to pick, sort, crate and ship the apples. The orchards have to bring workers in from Jamaica to pick the apples and prune the trees and use locals to sort, crate and ship because the locals are just too lazy to do the work. The workers are flown in and housed in dorm style housing. They send back 80% of their wages to their families. They also love to play the lottery, especially Power Ball."
>>ENOUGH OF THIS #$%^!!! Lazy my ass!! You need to stop regurgitating junk that others say without actually thinking about it, makes you look like an idiot! If the employers pay a fair days wage for the work done then you would fill those jobs with "americans"! 9.4% unemployeement attests to that!! Instead, they bring in "illegals" (which in and of its-self should be a crime) pay them pennies on the dollar and justify this by saying, "we can not get americans to do the work!" Nobody but illegals will pick up trash for 8 hours and take $20 as payment when you can go flip burgers for $7. PAY WHAT THE JOB IS WORTH AND YOU WILL HAVE AMERICANS DOING THE WORK!!
SO LETS THINK THIS THROUGH!! "they" come here illegally, get paid a rate, that even if they didn't send 80% back home(READ REMOVING AMERICAN DOLLARS FROM OUR ECONOMY) would keep them under the poverty level. They do this by "undercutting" american workers BY THE WAY!! This, in-turn, forces them to "live" (I use the word loosely) together. Cramming 2 and 3 families into residences that are zoned to be single family dwelings. This drives DOWN the values of neighboring properties. Why should anybody "have to" live in "DORM STYLE HOUSING" to make $20 a day? FAIR DAYS PAY FOR A FAIR DAYS WORK! Couple this with their lack of health insurance which sees them clogging our county health departments which forces taxpayers to cover! OH NO, I used the word taxpayers!! I love it when idiots calim they pay taxes! How do you pay taxes without a valid SSN? You use a bogus number or someone else's, and claim 9 deductions thus getting virtually nothing taken out of your check. THATS NOT PAYING TAXES!!
ANd who in this tread tried to claim that the majority of illegals are here not by choice?!?! WHAT IN THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?! Are you trying to say there is some MASSIVE reverse slave trade FORCING people into the US?!?! THEY ARE HERE BY CHOICE....THEIR CHOICE!!! USE YOUR HEAD BEFORE OPENING YOUR MOUTH...Think things through, your life will be better that way!!
True. But it should be a felony.
And your analogy is not complete. A speeder at least stops speeding when ticketed. The illegal border-crosser continues his crime every day, week, month, and year that he remains here illegally. Furthermore, many of his subsequent everyday activities are also illegal as a consequence of his underlying illegal immigration status.
klein
Für Meno :)
Thats somehting you should point out to the American farmers. They are the ones that own the farm, property, run it, and do the hiring.
But, by all means, they look at the bottom dollar figure.
1 farm, ranch or Ochard hiring only high paid americans workers would be forced into bankrupty.
Because his price of an orange, apple, or potato would be $1.00 each, not $1.00 per pound or less.
Are the american people ready to pay such higher produce prices, including wine and fruit drinks, restaurants, hotels, and yes landscaping ?
Include bennies, such as healthcare, pension, ss, etc, which the american worker no doubtly would want, add another dollar to each veggie/fruit cost.
I tell you, while I was in Florida, I often wondered why Idaho Potatoes and other "northern" veggies and fruits were cheaper in Canada (even though they grow locally where I live).
I know now, it's the cheap labour your american farms take for granted.
However, since ofcourse it's only seasonal work here. It gives students summerjobs, but as well we fly in Mexicans too, but legally, with temporary working visas etc.
And they earn just as much as any other temp worker would earn.
Actually, last summer (I think it was), 1 of our unions wanted to fight for them, so they get an overpaid rate of 1.5X. But, the mexicans said, no, they didn't want that.
Because, they were afraid, thier hrs would be cut, to 8 hrs only per day. And they work 16 if they can.
They want to earn as much money in the short period of time, as they can.
blue efficacy
Well-Known Member
A wonderful employee in my building had to resign due to the I-9 thing. He was a very hard worker, always had a smile on his face, been with the company a good 10 years. He had a family.
Say what you will about illegal immigration, I think it's wrong that someone like this and his family suffer like this. It's bad policy, and it punishes illegals who do the right thing and try to be productive members of society. I think it's profoundly stupid though that they're calling for a latino boycott of UPS, however. As mentioned this certainly isn't UPS' policy, and it would hardly be realistic to expect UPS to decline the government volume they'll be receiving.
The outrage should truly be directed at the paranoid post-9/11 legislation.
As much as Republicans love to paint illegal aliens as bad, they are usually good people who work harder than any Republican I have ever met. Also in my hometown immigrants have revitalized many parts of the city where I would have formerly felt unsafe.
Say what you will about illegal immigration, I think it's wrong that someone like this and his family suffer like this. It's bad policy, and it punishes illegals who do the right thing and try to be productive members of society. I think it's profoundly stupid though that they're calling for a latino boycott of UPS, however. As mentioned this certainly isn't UPS' policy, and it would hardly be realistic to expect UPS to decline the government volume they'll be receiving.
The outrage should truly be directed at the paranoid post-9/11 legislation.
As much as Republicans love to paint illegal aliens as bad, they are usually good people who work harder than any Republican I have ever met. Also in my hometown immigrants have revitalized many parts of the city where I would have formerly felt unsafe.
thelus
Package Car Whipping Boy
Why dont you guys ask the Addison air driver how things are going here. Its not this whole I-9 thing screwed things up big time. Ok i understand the fact UPS has government contracts and has to use the E-verify. I understand if your not legal to work you shouldn't. What i don't understand is most of these guys were combo and they are not refilling the jobs. They made fake bids here that no one is getting. seriously sounds like a District manager said this "Well we have to get rid of illegals, why not kill 2 birds with one stone and also eliminate the combo job they held". All I can say is, I am not doing 5 towns because they refuse to put on a new air driver because they old one was fired for I-9. 
NHDRVR
Well-Known Member
ups1990
Well-Known Member
More towards the posted point, UPS should not face any type of criticism for following Federal guidelines as it relates to verification of employees. As someone working for this company in So Cal, Latinos make a large population of the work force. The fact that UPS could be anti-Latino will not hold water.
The hypocrisy on both sides of the Immigration issue is very evident and only the middle ground will bring an agreement that no political party and advocates will be pleased with.
First, pro-immigrant groups will not admit to the fact a large portion of ilegals make up for instance, a big piece of the California prison population. Which makes the case for those whom say they take state resources away from other services. Again and again we see on the news of a person arrested for a deadly crime as a DUI and others as well, then find out that this individual was deported numerous times. Every time a deportation takes place it cost Federal dollars.
Those taking a strong-arm attitude towards illegals can easily see that many of them are hired by compnaies that know of their illegal status. We see contractors hiring these folks to work on middle class and upper class homes. Let's be honest, to a degree we could care less who is working on our house as long as they do a good job at a fair price. Latinos are seen providing many services in know "White" conservative neigborhoods. We can talk about getting tough on ilegals all we want, but do we really want them all gone?
The faster Americans come to a middle ground solution to this pressing problem the better it will be in the long run. Those meeting citizenship requirement ie.no criminal record, hefty fine...and those not meeting them, unfortunatly will have to be deported. Many people will end up leaving the country and some will take political heat. The true essence of middle ground compromise, it hurts.
The hypocrisy on both sides of the Immigration issue is very evident and only the middle ground will bring an agreement that no political party and advocates will be pleased with.
First, pro-immigrant groups will not admit to the fact a large portion of ilegals make up for instance, a big piece of the California prison population. Which makes the case for those whom say they take state resources away from other services. Again and again we see on the news of a person arrested for a deadly crime as a DUI and others as well, then find out that this individual was deported numerous times. Every time a deportation takes place it cost Federal dollars.
Those taking a strong-arm attitude towards illegals can easily see that many of them are hired by compnaies that know of their illegal status. We see contractors hiring these folks to work on middle class and upper class homes. Let's be honest, to a degree we could care less who is working on our house as long as they do a good job at a fair price. Latinos are seen providing many services in know "White" conservative neigborhoods. We can talk about getting tough on ilegals all we want, but do we really want them all gone?
The faster Americans come to a middle ground solution to this pressing problem the better it will be in the long run. Those meeting citizenship requirement ie.no criminal record, hefty fine...and those not meeting them, unfortunatly will have to be deported. Many people will end up leaving the country and some will take political heat. The true essence of middle ground compromise, it hurts.
UPSF Peeon
Well-Known Member
let the illegales stay, atleast they work unlike another race thats overcrowding america
You mean the ones who invaded, slaughtered most of the indigenous people and put the survivors in camps, and then started making "laws" about who was allowed to come to "their" country? I like how their descendants get all huffy about it too, talking about "criminals" and "illegals" and the importance of obeying the law.....
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