Part Timers, 5.5 hrs vs get your job done

[TxRoadDawg]

I gotta transfer to air. What I've seen of the ground side the only way someone will get canned and it stick is either the 48 hour notice letter or if they shoot someone. I wouldn't doubt there are people that have been terminated over ten times for cause that still work because its contract year, or some higher up is on a crusade to have the highest retention in the region, or some one doesn't want to offend their buddy in hr by firing someone they hired ect ect ect

 

[LongTimeComing]

It doesn't matter whether it's air or not.....discipline is discipline....attendance issues are the easiest things to write up. There is no dispute, no he-said-she-said, it's all cut and dry. You print out the record and show it to people.

The problem isn't that it's 'package' or 'air'...the problem is lazy managers.

 

[curiousbrain]

It doesn't matter whether it's air or not.....discipline is discipline....attendance issues are the easiest things to write up. There is no dispute, no he-said-she-said, it's all cut and dry. You print out the record and show it to people.

The problem isn't that it's 'package' or 'air'...the problem is lazy managers.

I wrote up three suspension letters and sent them to my preload, center, and division managers. It's been about two months.

Not raging on anyone here, but seriously, that's not my problem anymore. I'm not letting people get away with murder, they are - so, what am I to think except that this is the way they want it? So, that's the way it is.

 

[RolloTony Brown Town]

It doesn't matter whether it's air or not.....discipline is discipline....attendance issues are the easiest things to write up. There is no dispute, no he-said-she-said, it's all cut and dry. You print out the record and show it to people.

The problem isn't that it's 'package' or 'air'...the problem is lazy managers.

I agree that attendance is the easiest to write up, but its NEVER cut and dry where I'm from. Stewards fight you tooth and nail the whole way. Very little cooperation. I do my job and document all conversations we have, and if an employee isn't doing what I request (using loadstand, attendance, tardiness, scanning, misloads, etc.) then I get a steward and ask him to have what I now refer to as a "come back to jesus" talk lol. This being a one on one conversation between one of our many stewards and an employee. I give my guys chances to fix their mistakes. If they choose to ignore my requests, and any one of my bosses (coordinator, manager, DM) wants to pursue further discipline (verbal, written, whatever) then they can do that. I'm not in the business of firing employees.

 

[DownTimeIsNeverOnTime]

Sup ya'll... new here...but not new to the shenanigans that occurs on a daily basis at UPS...

Amusing story from last week..... I run Irregs at my hub and last Thursday I had 6 people call in "sick". I've been around the system long enough to know that the guys in my group follow their occasions and know when they "drop off" so they could just call in. So we start up, and my lead asks why we were short-staffed; I told him that 6 had called in. He went on to say: "Write 'em up. Our Manager doesn't stand for this kind of absenteeism. "

I laughed right in front of him after he said that. In my 7 years as a part-time sup, I've worked under 9 managers. All of them have preached about "discipline" and "holding them accountable". I can't count how many times I've discharged an employee who has already had 6 discharges on his or her record ( just on attendance alone ) and the manager "worked out a deal" with the Teamster Business Agent that oversaw the discipline hearing because of backroom deals.

 

[DownTimeIsNeverOnTime]

I agree. But I have to add is that I don't mind helping out my co sups who had a jacked-up day due to my lead's bad decisions. A while back, I wrapped up my area and was making my way to the office to validate my employee's time when my lead caught me and said to go help out so-and-so's wrap up their area.

It's almost like my lead smelled toast and just before having a stroke, he, outta nowhere goes on to cut employees when the volume is the heaviest. So what would be a 30 minute wrap up, turns into almost two hours.

I sometimes wonder how some leads got their promotion. Maybe they like screwing up and being chewed out on a daily basis.

 

[Catatonic]

Sup ya'll... new here...but not new to the shenanigans that occurs on a daily basis at UPS...

Amusing story from last week..... I run Irregs at my hub and last Thursday I had 6 people call in "sick". I've been around the system long enough to know that the guys in my group follow their occasions and know when they "drop off" so they could just call in. So we start up, and my lead asks why we were short-staffed; I told him that 6 had called in. He went on to say: "Write 'em up. Our Manager doesn't stand for this kind of absenteeism. "

I laughed right in front of him after he said that. In my 7 years as a part-time sup, I've worked under 9 managers. All of them have preached about "discipline" and "holding them accountable". I can't count how many times I've discharged an employee who has already had 6 discharges on his or her record ( just on attendance alone ) and the manager "worked out a deal" with the Teamster Business Agent that oversaw the discipline hearing because of backroom deals.

That's the way it has always been.
Attendance based termination is the most forgiven/traded away.
The Union people are elected and UPS has to help make them look good.
An absentee problem either gets solved or after 4 or 5 terminations, they are gone.
I would always ask the person after the 3rd or so termination if they wanted to resign and most did.

 

[Bagels]

That's the way it has always been.
Attendance based termination is the most forgiven/traded away.
The Union people are elected and UPS has to help make them look good.
An absentee problem either gets solved or after 4 or 5 terminations, they are gone.
I would always ask the person after the 3rd or so termination if they wanted to resign and most did.

Not sure I really agree with that. In my experience as a steward, when management wanted a termination based upon attendance to stick, they'd play hard ball & let it go to hearing where the outcome would be 'show up late one time / miss one day of work within the next 9 months and you're done.' By the time it's reached this point, these guys typically have at least 15 call-ins or 30 lates within the last 9 months (and I say "at least" because it's typically significantly more) ... how many of them could realistically go 9 months without another one? When they do screw up again (and they always do), the union won't accept another grievance.

OTOH, I've seen people with similar attendance issues -- but significantly stronger work ethics -- be given deals like 'show up on-time every day for the next month and this will be dropped.' And when they don't, management will key it in so they appear on-time saying something like 'well, it's foggy out this morning ... it's much more important to show up to work safe than worry about the fog and be sorry.' In other words, they'll look the other way & deal with it for the people they want to keep (unless they really force management's hand and then show up late every single day... and yes, I've seen it happen), as they know how difficult it is to retain quality help. I wouldn't give the union too much credit, but just my opinion.

 

[curiousbrain]

Not sure I really agree with that. In my experience as a steward, when management wanted a termination based upon attendance to stick, they'd play hard ball & let it go to hearing where the outcome would be 'show up late one time / miss one day of work within the next 9 months and you're done.' By the time it's reached this point, these guys typically have at least 15 call-ins or 30 lates within the last 9 months (and I say "at least" because it's typically significantly more) ... how many of them could realistically go 9 months without another one? When they do screw up again (and they always do), the union won't accept another grievance.

OTOH, I've seen people with similar attendance issues -- but significantly stronger work ethics -- be given deals like 'show up on-time every day for the next month and this will be dropped.' And when they don't, management will key it in so they appear on-time saying something like 'well, it's foggy out this morning ... it's much more important to show up to work safe than worry about the fog and be sorry.' In other words, they'll look the other way & deal with it for the people they want to keep (unless they really force management's hand and then show up late every single day... and yes, I've seen it happen), as they know how difficult it is to retain quality help. I wouldn't give the union too much credit, but just my opinion.

I would kind of agree with the sentiments here; I recently fired two guys, after having dealt with them for months. Both solid guys, and I liked them both - I must have talked to them a thousand times before I sat them with the steward, and gave them their warning letters. I could not have been any clearer (to paraphrase): This is the end of the line, if you do not improve your attendance I will fire you; if you get your job back, I will fire you again.

And, when their coworkers asked me what the deal was, I simply asked them "what would you do? Let them be late constantly, which is an insult to the guys who show up on time every single day for years on end?" Didn't get much of a response, as no one can really argue that point.

Currently, they are both gone with zero chance (that I know of) to get their jobs back.

 

[TxRoadDawg]

if yall can get one to stick i'm amazed, my area every hourly is made of teflon. how people can go to the panel 10+ times and keep their job amazes me including the ones termed for violations of that work place violence stuff.

 

[curiousbrain]

if yall can get one to stick i'm amazed, my area every hourly is made of teflon. how people can go to the panel 10+ times and keep their job amazes me including the ones termed for violations of that work place violence stuff.

I've worked every day this week because I fired so many damn employees; I'm not saying I'm "tough" in any regard, but quite the contrary - so many employees want to test the rules, that they wind up having no job. I'd rather work every day for the next year then be a slave to some idiot wanting to show up late everyday.

 

[Bagels]

if yall can get one to stick i'm amazed, my area every hourly is made of teflon. how people can go to the panel 10+ times and keep their job amazes me including the ones termed for violations of that work place violence stuff.

If somebody's going to panel 10+ times and retaining their job it's because either a) the "offenses" you're writing them up for are petty or unjustified and/or b) your documentation is poor. Especially for workplace violence.

 

[BrownBM]

First ill address PTRS and helping your fellow partners - Record what you work, if you go over 5.5 hrs, you record it, do not work for free, its my job (the managers) to answer for it and chances are you went over because I needed you 2. If you are under I will let my PT sups go unless someone needs help. Why let 15 go in 4.5 hours when the other 15 will be there for 5.5 when you can all go in 5 if you help each other and truthfully you should want to help each other. I preach to my group that its 1 sort 1 team. You walked in together, you will walk out together. If you ask my Ft and Pt sups what thier area of responsibility is, you won't hear a outbound belt or unload section said..the reply you will hear "all areas of this building are my responsibility" I promise you that.

Second lets address the discipline - I like the we are mentioning documentation. I hear all the time that we as a company can't fire anyone. This is false, I have terminated employees for just about everything that violates the ups contract and our policies. Documentation is key. Train an employee to do the job and document it. Hold them accountable to do the training as you provided. Once and if you need to start discipline start with a verbal warning or "talk with" document this and then retrain the employee and document it as well. Document when an employee does well so you can prove they are capable of doing the job you assigned. Document defects and the circumstances at the time of the defects. If you must progress in discipline go to warning letter and repeat all the steps after verbal warning, most important is "retrain" then 3 day-5day and discharge. Each time repeating all the steps above, especially retraining. When it goes to panel you will be able to say I have givin you X number of chances, invested a lot of time in training/retraining you and you've proven your capable of doing the job at time. Keep a timeline and stay organized so its easily presentable for whoever goes to panel. And always remember they can win 10 times at panel and chances are they will see another panel but we only have to win once and its game over!

I read earlier in the post a pt sups does the documentation but leaves it to his ft sup or manager to discipline the employee. (In a perfect world we wouldnt need the discipline process and we dont go to work thinking who can i fire today but unfortunetly its neccessary at times)Discipline should come from the immediate supervisor, my role is to back you. If the next level sup or manager does it, it takes away from your role as an important part of the team. You are equally empowered as I am or the next. Your employees will respect you if it comes from you, may not like it, but will certainly respect it.

I like most of what I read in this thread and good to see that some are willing to help others.

Remember your area is your own little buisness and you should take pride in that and run it as such

If you folks ever have questions, need advice, or seek guidance, please feel free to reach out for me here.

 

[RolloTony Brown Town]

That was my post BrownBM so let me clarify. I document everything. Any time they are late or absent and the employees reason for why. Any training or retraining I provide is documented. If it happened, it is typed up in the electronic employee record system that we use. I work in a building where my DM has back room deals with the union. For example, I have an employee (sorter) who is an attendance problem. He's been an attendance problem for as long as I've been in the primary, even before I was a supervisor on his side of the primary and before I was his lead supervisor. This employee was documented for his poor attendance and each time he booked off it was documented what his reason was after we would talk about it the next day. We went through every step in the process and he was given many opportunities. This employee is on a notice of term from documentation that was done by myself and his supervisor. I stick by my initial statement. I am not in the business of firing people. Apparently my manager isn't either, because THIS SORTER has been on a notice of term since august, had a local level hearing where the BA said he wasn't going to defend him anymore and he needed to be at work everyday. His attendance has been as poor as it ever was. Since the start of the new year he has been out 6 times. I approach my coordinator who is in charge of the primary. I ask him what he would like to do. We can't walk him out because our DM has a deal with the BA.

If managers want their pt sups to take their job seriously then they need to do their jobs too. We have policies and procedures and methods for a reason. They are to be followed, but don't preach to me if I don't have your support. I do my job very well. I am only a pt supervisor. I do not have the authority to sign a warning letter or a notice of term. I do not have the authority to issue either of these either, but if you're a manager and you won't do your job then I need to find another way to make it work. Letting the stewards know whats going on and communicating to people who actually care. Where I'm from upper management (center manager's and dm's) talk a big game but rarely back it up

Does the documentation stop? no. That's my job, but don't think that its my responsibility to do anything beyond writing it down. I can express all of the things I want but rolls down hill and if you take a dump on top of your hub mountain, I will get hit at the bottom.

Not to be taken as an insult or directed towards you BrownBM, but do not confuse my statement about what my coordinator or manager wants me to do and what I actually do. "Excuse me mr. coordinator, so and so has continued to (pick something) even after we had a few talk withs and a verbal was done with the steward. what would you like me to do?" I treat my operation like its my business. It just happens to be my business that I have very little control over when it comes to decisions about discipline or staffing.

 

[TheFigurehead]

So 12 days off in a matter of 6 months after your cavalier 'declaration' to management? You must work for some true nitwits if you believe that you are magically untouchable and can do what you want.

5 of those will be personal days I assume? Does your local have sick days? Did you plan on using these? If they are just call-in's, you would be fired by the time June got around if you worked for me, especially after you puffed your chest about it.

Furthermore, attendance is the easiest thing to sling disciplinary action on....so I'm a little confused as to how you are so assured you are 'safe'. Your record of the past 7 months does not give you the authority to claim 12 extra days off.

You must have it so nice working for management people who are invertebrates and have no knowledge of progressive disciplinary action.....

I'm willing to bet, were BearcatShane to bump this thread come October, he'll have had his 12 days and no discipline... provided he's one of the better workers.

Is it right?

I'm not sure... but when it comes right down to it, UPS need workers. There are only so many people who are willing to work those hours for that pay... and only so many of those who are willing will have the necessary work ethic to do it effectively. An employee who misses one day a month but works hard every other day is worth more than a guy who shows up every day and puts in 2 hours worth of work in a 3.5 hour shift.

Beyond that, due to the culture at UPS, hourlies and management operate under a perpetual shaky truce... and both need to carefully choose their battles. Personally, I show up and show up on time... so I don't have to concern myself with any of this... but if management wants to start nitpicking hourlies, then hourlies can do the same.

It easily can turn into a battle of progressive discipline vs piles of grievances. I could file 5 grievances a day... sups handling packages, ignoring seniority, etc... I could demand assistance with every 70+ pound package I unload from the endless trailers full of bulk we receive...

but I don't.

I would, however, if I felt unnecessarily singled out... and management is more than aware of it. In return, I show up and work hard, and expect them to keep the B.S., power trips, and whining to a minimum. There are plenty of other guys on the sort who will find your blustery grandstanding intimidating. I don't. I give no one any reason to criticize my performance. The operational failures are yours to own.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

I treat my operation like its my business. It just happens to be my business that I have very little control over when it comes to decisions about discipline or staffing.

Delusional if you ask me. It's hard to imagine, from the outside, the POV of a part-time supervisor at UPS at times. Especially the 18-year-old pawns. It's not your operation or business, it's UPS's. You are a part-time supervisor. FT sups and lower management have relatively very little authority...where does that leave you, the lowest on the totem-pole? An operations facilitator.

 

[RolloTony Brown Town]

Agreed that pt sups have no authority and we are the lowest man on the totem pole.

That being said, it isn't delusional to treat your operation like it's your own.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Agreed that pt sups have no authority and we are the lowest man on the totem pole.

That being said, it isn't delusional to treat your operation like it's your own.

"Act as if"
I believe any part-time supervisor "showing ownership" is simply inflating their ego and deluding themselves. Run the operation like it's your own, even though you aren't really running it? Sounds complex. All for menial pay and benefits (less than hourlies). UPS corporate loves it - full-time dedication and commitment from part-time, underpaid slaves.

 

[RolloTony Brown Town]

As far as I'm concerned we're all underpaid slaves. The difference? you move packages. I tell other people to move packages. Am I really running it? Yea I am. This isn't about inflating ego. The part time supervisors that take their jobs seriously and do well run it like its their own. I don't disagree about the menial pay or benefits or corporate loving the full time dedication for part time pennies. I'm assuming you haven't worked with or know many part time supervisors based on your opinion. This is just my experience. Take it or leave it.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

As far as I'm concerned we're all underpaid slaves. The difference? you move packages. I tell other people to move packages. Am I really running it? Yea I am. This isn't about inflating ego. The part time supervisors that take their jobs seriously and do well run it like its their own. I don't disagree about the menial pay or benefits or corporate loving the full time dedication for part time pennies. I'm assuming you haven't worked with or know many part time supervisors based on your opinion. This is just my experience. Take it or leave it.

I do understand your "feel good" stance, and yes I've worked with probably hundreds or thousands of PT supervisors. Watching someone move boxes and shuffling paperwork is not "running an operation", it's facilitating someone else running it. No problem.