Progression pay

[OopsDriver]

Thanks Randy and Jon for the replys. I am Local 177 in the Northeast by the way.
So you guys are saying I should be up to 16.10 and under the old contract, with full rate in 30 months, correct?

 

[gandydancer]

Thanks Randy and Jon for the replys. I am Local 177 in the Northeast by the way.
So you guys are saying I should be up to 16.10 and under the old contract, with full rate in 30 months, correct?

Exactly. You're owed back pay. Some apparently say you shouldn't have gotten the first contractual raise until you made seniority rather than on 8/1/08 (I disagree) and there's a literal but implausible reading of the contract that would deny some (but not, I argue, you) any contractual raises ever (see your other thread), but there's no doubt in my mind that you should be making $16.10 and that others similarly situated ARE making $16.10.

 

[JonFrum]

Thanks Randy and Jon for the replys. I am Local 177 in the Northeast by the way.
So you guys are saying I should be up to 16.10 and under the old contract, with full rate in 30 months, correct?

Not quite.

The Contract says you are not entitled to any General Wage Increases on August 1 and February 1 during the life of the Contract.

The Contract says you are under the "old" progression language.

The Contract says you will hit Top Rate after 30 months, rather than 36.

The Contract says you should be currently getting $15.75 per hour, not $16.10. Are you currently getting $15.75?

It's up to you what you want to believe.

My logic is here in Post #10:
http://www.browncafe.com/community/threads/getting-screwed.225584/

 

[OopsDriver]

Yes, I am at 15.75, started at 14.90 I think it was. "What I believe"? What does that mean? I have to believe what I see, which is I haven't gotten a raise in over 8 months. And that sux.

Stumbled across a email from my building manager and someone up in payroll. I asked him about all this back in November when I first noticed a difference in my check and a friend who started a month before me.When my BM couldn't answer me he went online and asked payroll (wherever that is). My BM gave me a copy of these conversations so I could "see for myself". In the email the guy from payroll explains I didn't get the 8/1 increase cause I hadn't made book yet, (ok fair enough). But that I was entitled and would receive the 2/1 increase. Which I never did. Also says I am in the old progression and should reach full rate in 30, not 36 months. So I made a copy and gave it to my BM this morning after our PCM. He didn't seem happy I held on to this paper, but's thats me. I save everything.
My question to him was how can they say one thing in Nov and now the opposite? More to follow I guess........

 

[OopsDriver]

Oh and one more thing, if I were under the new contract/progression wouldn't I be at like 17.25 now? Or am I reading that wrong too?

 

[jasyatz]

I think thats what the ruling was on the Feb minutes...That we'll neevr reach that rate due to "the old contract progression" we were hired under.. I know for a fact our local 177 is looking into us 07/2008 hires that didn't make book by the contract date.. Seems if they don't fix it now, we'll end up getting the contract raise before our yearly Progression bump and we'll be out of sync since the HIGHER rate takes precident.

From what I understand there are 8 of us in 177 this falls under but hundreds in the country (Hired in summer of 2008 but reached seniority after 08/01/2008.

I have been told 3 different things from all the same people. 2 o which change their story mid stream..

1) We are entitled to ALL contract raises on 08/01/08 just as if we had reached seniority.
2) We are entitled to the contract raises BUT effective our seniority date
3) We are not entitle to EITHER of the 2008 raises (part 1 08/2008 nor Part 2 02/2009) because we did not reach Seniority by the contract date (08/01/08)

2 statements of the 3 are false, one is true. Haven't heard from anyone in 60 days as to exactly which scenario is true.

 

[WyoBrown]

On the subject of progression pay...I hit my 1 yr as a driver March 3rd, 09. My paycheck this week shows a pay increase from 16.45 to 16.80 a pay rate that is in accordance with the previous contract. But, we have had a .70 cent increase since the new contract was ratified, which I received. So, shouldnt my pay rate now be 17.50?

 

[jasyatz]

Our local is having a meeting tonight, to answer alot of these questions (I hope)

I'll let you know what they come up(if they address any of these progression salary items)..

 

[OopsDriver]

Hey Jazy, where was this local meeting? Hillside? How can I find out when the next one is, I'd like to try and make it. Thanks for listening brother, keep in touch...

 

[JonFrum]

On the subject of progression pay...I hit my 1 yr as a driver March 3rd, 09. My paycheck this week shows a pay increase from 16.45 to 16.80 a pay rate that is in accordance with the previous contract. But, we have had a .70 cent increase since the new contract was ratified, which I received. So, shouldnt my pay rate now be 17.50?

Wyo, your current pay rate of $16.80 is what the Contract dictates. You started at $14.70, went to $15.75 at Seniority, got a 35-cent raise on August 1, 2008 to $16.10, another 35-cents on February 1, 2009 to $16.45, and now are up to $16.80 at your one year anniversary.

You get all the split General Wage Increases because you attained Seniority by August 1, 2008.

You are under the "old" progression language because you were in progression prior to August 1, 2008.

Someone with one year seniority under the "new" progression will make $18.45, but the very earliest that could happen is August 1, 2009. And they would have to wait three years to reach Top Rate, while your progression is only two-and-a-half years.

 

[jasyatz]

Looks like we'll have to wait on the ruling as UPS is not budging on the "attained seniority by" clause in the wording of the contract. Basically I was told last night "We're trying to fight it, but because you DID NOT obtain seniority by 08/01/08, you are not entitled to ANY contract raise throuout the life of this agreement until you FINISH your progression" He alos stated that even if it goes to arbitration, could be years until they come to a ruling. Only then, will I/us receive any back pay. Right now, they are scheduling cases for 2011. So don't hold your breath.

Also we were told could be mid to late summer before we are back on the road unless "substantial increases in volume occur, or unless our full time drivers start watching their routes, taking lunches, following methods and not taking shortcuts"
Every shortcut saves UPS time and allows them the financial opportunity to take us off the road.

Other than that, there was alot of talk regarding OJS and how to CYA regarding over/under allowances..

 

[gandydancer]

On the subject of progression pay...I hit my 1 yr as a driver March 3rd, 09. My paycheck this week shows a pay increase from 16.45 to 16.80 a pay rate that is in accordance with the previous contract. But, we have had a .70 cent increase since the new contract was ratified, which I received. So, shouldnt my pay rate now be 17.50?

No, the contract semi-anniversary raises are not added to the progression, just to the rate you are earning on the semi-anniversary dates. Your raises are according to the old 30 month progression under the "Article 41 Section 2(c) of the prior Agreement shall remain in effect" language. Therefor your progression should be/have been:

March 3, 2008 $14.70 start -- 70% of $21
Seniority -------15.75 75% of $21
Aug 1, 2008 ----16.10 $0.35 contract semi-anniversary raise
Feb 1, 2009 ----16.45 $0.35 contract semi-anniversary raise
March 3, 2009 --16.80 1 year - 80% of $21
Aug 1, 2009 ----17.175 $0.375 contract semi-anniversary raise
Feb 1, 2010 ----17.55 $0.375 contract semi-anniversary raise
March 3, 2009 --18.90 2 year - 90% of $21
Aug 1, 2010 ----19.275 $0.375 contract semi-anniversary raise
Sept 3, 2010 ---30.175 "top rate" at 30 months (per regional supplement)
Feb 1, 2011 ----30.55 $0.375 contract semi-anniversary raise
etc.

 

[gandydancer]

Looks like we'll have to wait on the ruling as UPS is not budging on the "attained seniority by" clause in the wording of the contract. Basically I was told last night "We're trying to fight it, but because you DID NOT obtain seniority by 08/01/08, you are not entitled to ANY contract raise throuout the life of this agreement until you FINISH your progression"...

What happened to the "Full-time employees still in progression on the effective date of this Master Agreement shall receive the above contractual increases" language? Were you not "in progression" (part time) on the Effective Date? Or were you an off-the-street hire into Package?

 

[UnconTROLLed]

What happened to the "Full-time employees still in progression on the effective date of this Master Agreement shall receive the above contractual increases" language? Were you not "in progression" (part time) on the Effective Date? Or were you an off-the-street hire into Package?

The GWI's are not considered a progression. A progression has a beginning and end point, the wage increases do not. At least to my knowledge.

 

[JonFrum]

What happened to the "Full-time employees still in progression on the effective date of this Master Agreement shall receive the above contractual increases" language? Were you not "in progression" (part time) on the Effective Date? Or were you an off-the-street hire into Package?

This particular group of full-timers did not attain Seniority until after 8/1/2008. Therefore, it is all but guaranteed that they were not in full-time progression on 12/19/2007, the effective date of the Master Agreement.

[Part-time progression is a completely different matter, and is not what "Article 41 - Full-time Employees" is talking about.]

 

[WyoBrown]

What happened to the "Full-time employees still in progression on the effective date of this Master Agreement shall receive the above contractual increases" language? Were you not "in progression" (part time) on the Effective Date? Or were you an off-the-street hire into Package?

Gandy, first of all, thanks for the breakdown of rates/dates, very helpful. Secondly, I am not an off the street hire, I attained seniority Mar 03 of 2008 and before going full time as pkg driver, was part time preload and air exception driver.

 

[OopsDriver]

WHAT?!? no raises at all till I/we hit full rate? I NEVER heard anything like that when I asked about going full time driving from my pre load position. Everyone said start before August, and you'll be fine. EVERYONE. Could drivers, sups, management all really be so misinformed? This really sux. Have they figured if we get to full rate in 30 or 36 months at least. Jeez, gimme something to aim for. IM SO DEPRESSED NOW........

 

[gandydancer]

...[Part-time progression is a completely different matter, and is not what "Article 41 - Full-time Employees" is talking about.]

Sez you. I've already pointed out that the failure to replace "effective date" with "August 1, 2008" in this case but not Article 21, Section 5 is an obvious drafting error, but anyone insisting on ignoring the obvious in favor of a literal reading is going to have a hard time explaining why "in progression" shouldn't be read equally literally. Oops and Wyo were "in progression" on the effective date. It doesn't say anything about having to be the full time progression. You can't insist on literalism only when you want the implausible.

And big_arrow_up has chimed in on the other thread to say that he, as well as Wyo ("$16.45"!) has gotten the contract raises. You analysis indicating otherwise is meeting resistance from reality. Get over it.

 

[gandydancer]

The GWI's are not considered a progression. A progression has a beginning and end point, the wage increases do not. At least to my knowledge.

You seem to have misread me. Never said the GWI was a progression. Point is the contract says you GET the GWIs if you were "in progression" on the "effective date"(sic!) (41(1)) or "August 1, 2008" (21(5)). Everyone we've encountered was in progression on BOTH dates and should be getting the GWIs. Frum is determined to maintain he was right, but he's wrong.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

You seem to have misread me. Never said the GWI was a progression. Point is the contract says you GET the GWIs if you were "in progression" on the "effective date"(sic!) (41(1)) or "August 1, 2008" (21(5)). Everyone we've encountered was in progression on BOTH dates and should be getting the GWIs. Frum is determined to maintain he was right, but he's wrong.

No I think I read what you had said correctly. you said a part-timer is in progression, but I have never heard of such language unless it's Article 40. part-timers do not have a progression.