This is the America We Have Become

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Slothrop, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Slothrop

    Slothrop Member

    Canadian citizen Maher Arar, who is barred from entering the United States, delivered his acceptance speech for the Letelier-Moffitt International Human Rights Award in a pre-recorded videotape. This is a transcript of his speech, which was viewed at the award ceremony hosted by the Institute for Policy Studies on October 18, 2006 in Washington, DC.

    Makes you feel proud. eh?
  2. over9five

    over9five Moderator Staff Member

    I'm not sure how to feel about this.

    If it's true, it's only one side of the story. I have to wonder what he did to be detained in the first place. One respondent said Canadian authorities passed bad information to us. Arar doesn't mention this at all.

    It's unfortunate that we'll never get the whole story.
  3. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    I agree with 'over' on this being only 1 side of the story. If he looked like a duck and walked like a duck and talked like a duck, then we took him for a duck. There had to be some sort of red flag.

    If a U.S. soldier was taken in Iraq, they wouldn't question him. They would behead him and shout, "Next!"

    I'd like to hear the story from the "officials" whoever they are.
  4. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    So what if a few people get their feelings hurt? I wasn't aware that the United States was supposed to consider peoples' feelings when screening for terrorism. And if a few innocent people get detained then oh well. Better safe than sorry.
  5. Slothrop

    Slothrop Member

    Just Google his name:
    Maher Arar - Google Search
    then make up your own mind.

    big_arrow_up, I think more than feelings were hurt.

    I can point to many more cases like this, even worse.

    moreluck, 10 of our soldiers were killed in Iraq today, can you tell me what they died for?
  6. CTOTH

    CTOTH Not retired, just tired

    I'd have to say you've lost sight of what it means to be American and the definition of freedom as outlined in the Constitution. It's not about people's feelings, it's about people's civil liberties.
    If the executive branch continues to grant such authority in all these gray areas, we'll be no better off than a third world country lead by a dictator.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again:
    "He who is willing to sacrifice freedom for security, deserves neither freedom or security." - Benjamin Franklin
  7. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Well said CTOTH. What I just have never understood is how people would on the one hand demand that gov't should do this and do that granting it more and more powers under the name of goodness, charity and nobility then rejoice and campaign when it's gov't does so but then act with disgust, objection, wailing and gnashing of teeth when the very principle nature of gov't itself displays it's true nature for all to see. There's another good quote although the author is unknown to me but it sure has application here IMO.

    "You can't have your cake and eat it too!"

    But then another in relation to granting gov't further and further powers to do this and that also comes to mind.

    "Be very careful in what you ask for because you might get it!"

    There is total and absolute security and it is available right now. It's called a "SuperMax" prison and just something to ponder in that consideration, 1 in 32 Americans are either in jail or on parole or probation at this moment. Ever thought of comparing that ratio to Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union during their most glorious days?

    A 1918' piece may however have said it best:
    Part 1 of the unfinished essay: "The State" -

    We've also done a pretty good job of allowing gov't to build to a point of being a war machine.
    A Century of War - Mises Institute

    "Schumpeter's analysis explains the particularly strong propensity of democratic states to engage in imperialist war making and why the Age of Democracy has coincided with the Age of Imperialism. The term "democratic" is here being used in the broad sense that includes "totalitarian democracies" controlled by "parties" such as the Nationalist Socialist Workers Party in Germany and the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. These political parties, as opposed to purely ideological movements, came into being during the age of nationalist mass democracy that dawned in the late nineteenth century.

    Because the masses in a democratic polity are deeply imbued with the ideology of egalitarianism and the myth of majority rule, the ruling elites who control and benefit from the state recognize the utmost importance of concealing its oligarchic and exploitative nature from the masses. Continual war making against foreign enemies is a perfect way to disguise the naked clash of interests between the taxpaying and tax-consuming classes."

    source for above quote: Imperialism and the Logic of War Making - Mises Institute
  8. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    So occasionally a muslim is mistaken for a terrorist. Big deal. Better safe than sorry. All of the U.S. agenices (official and unofficial) do many things to try and protect this country. Extreme and not so extreme things. Believe it or not this guy, Maher, Arar, is in the minority. It's just like Pacino said in "The Recruit". The failures are known and the successes are not. That is true. I'm sure there are lots of successes from these interogations. You just don't hear about them. So when one man gets nabbed wrongfully, probably because of bad intel passed on from Canada, of course you liberals jump all over it. Moreluck and Over9Five were right. There were probably red flags sent up somewhere. Bad intel. Something. Oh well. If the guy is truly innocent I'd have to say that proves the system isn't perfect. But it does work.
  9. Slothrop

    Slothrop Member


    So you believe that torture is justified?
  10. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Considering this post I thought of an old quote from an english poet and diplomat during the the real greatest time of another empire, the British empire.

    The ends must justify the means.
    Matthew Prior

    You could equate many in history with this thinking but of the many a few by name come to mind.

    Adolph Hilter: Had he succeeded and achieved his goals, we would hail him today on any equal plain with any past leader of mankind. He took a very wrong course to achieve an end but had he been successful, we would not view those means with great remorse and distaste. I say we would hail him because the first principle of history is the victors write the history!

    Stalin: Who massacred millions in order to solidify power in a totalitarian state. Anything outside absolute obedience to the super state was not tolerated.

    Mao Zedong: Also massacred millions and his legacy lives on in this regard. Sure, China plays nice on the international economic stage but let a small group of students rise up to protest lack of freedom and watch the tanks roll.

    Here's you a quote from Chairman Mao that I'm sure you can relate and very much respect!

    "We must affirm anew the discipline of the Party, namely:
    (1) the individual is subordinate to the organization;
    (2) the minority is subordinate to the majority;
    (3) the lower level is subordinate to the higher level; and
    (4) the entire membership is subordinate to the Central Committee.
    Whoever violates these articles of discipline disrupts Party unity. "
    The Role of the Chinese Communist Party in the National War" (October 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, pp. 203-04.*

    I also find it ironic that you make the following statement:

    There was an event in history in which nearly the same words were spoken but with a slight difference.

    You and Saddam have much thinking in common. I'll even bet you'd find a fellow traveler in Osama too!

    Better hope you never find yourself a part of the 49%. Oh wait a minute, your side lost the election didn't they! I might even vote for Hillary in 08' just so I can help you taste firsthand the very vampire...uh I mean empire you have obediently helped to create!

    I guess you'd have never tolerated a Jeffersonian Federal Gov't! Then again we'd have never had a federal gov't that created Saddam, Osama, or for that fact Hitler, Stalin, Lenin or Chairman Mao!
  11. Jones

    Jones fILE A GRIEVE! Staff Member


    Here's a few more quotes along the same lines:

    "Kill them all. God will select those who should go to heaven and those who should go to hell."
    — Abbot Arnold de Citeaux, 1205 (during the Fourth Crusade)

    "Kill them all, for God knows His own."
    — Pope Innocent III, to his troops in the Albigensian Crusade of 1209

    Ironic that his name was "Innocent", no? And it was quite an effective strategy too, wasn't it? Who ended up winning those crusades anyway?:wink:

    It's interesting how easily people display these kinds of attidudes when the "mistakes" (torture is a mistake?) happen to someone else, especially if they belong to a group that the majority has managed to dehumanize (he was just a muslim anyway, right?).

    If, in the wake of bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building,the federal governement had starting profiling young white men with military experience and shipping them off to Syria to be tortured because there were some "red flags" (better safe than sorry!), I suspect you might hear a little more opposition from certain members of the Brown Cafe :cool:.
  12. benschreivogel

    benschreivogel New Member

    Can't say I'm worried.:tank:
  13. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    Oh god you guys are so pathetic it's comical. To compare screening for terrorism to anything Hitler, Stalin, or anyone you can dig up out of your online encyclopedia, is so off it is not even worth arguing. All of you people are the same fools that cried, "where was the CIA?", "where was the NSA?", "where was the Government?", etc., after 9/11 and now everything they are doing to try and prevent another one has you comparing our government and government agencies to the likes of Hitler and Saddam???? Maybe you all should move to China or Venezuela with your commie ideas. I'm sure I would have a hell of a time laughing at you guys as you stand in line at customs begging to get back in the U.S. But of course none of you could ever get back in because being interviewed numerous times is part of the immigration process and I'm sure you'd just cry TORTURE and get denied.
  14. Jones

    Jones fILE A GRIEVE! Staff Member

    Mac old buddy, I guess we're just on the wrong side of history. I remember when sending innocent people off to a secret prison to be tortured was something that good Americans were opposed to, not least because it was something that "commies" did. Apparently it's all reversed now, and we're the "commies".

    We must be pretty easy to spot, what with all our historical references and "online encyclopedias". In addition to supporting torture, all good Americans know that any sign of "book learnin" means the person is a "commie" :ohmy:

    I guess instead of reading history, I should be spending more time down at the multiplex. Then instead of resorting to boring old facts, I can support my position by quoting a Hollywood actor in a fictional movie, completely oblivious to the irony that the guy I'm quoting is the villain who betrays his country :wink:....
  15. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    I guess you're right Jones! Should we explain to "BIG ARROW UP" how the "ignore" mechanism works?

    HELL NO! Let's just post more on-line encylcopedia links and drive him nuts! Maybe helping him to grow some nuts under that BIG ARROW UP might make him not as fearful of everything that is exactly not like him.

    I'll bet he cheered for the firemen in Fahrenheit 451 and prayed they killed Montag!
  16. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    I just found a one sentence quote that I really think IMO sez it all.

    [QUOTE The state's "monopoly of deadly force" means that we hang a man who kills in order to steal a wallet but throw a parade for a leader who successfully kills 500,000 in order to steal the resources of another land. ][/quote]

    I read an article sometime back on the subject of war itself and the writer made an interesting point in the piece. He said "there was no such thing as a just war" which at first I thought that statement was very odd. But as he went on he forced you to rethink the term "a just war" which implies that both sides are holy and absolute just in their reason for invoking warfare. As I began to look back at wars there is always an unjust aggressor and in some wars both sides are in their own way an unjust aggressor.

    Once you understand from that point of view, the quote above has an even greater impact on it's obvious truth. Just thought I'd share that with ya and in all likelyhood piss Big Arrow off and make his day by giving him something to rant about! You know, one commie to another!:wink:

  17. Slothrop

    Slothrop Member