Try this...maybe

[hurricanegunner]

One more thing to keep in mind: If you get injured while working off the clock, you will not receive workman's comp. UPS management will simply say that you were not on the clock and you are out of work with no money. And, since you're violating the rules of the contract while you were injured, they might fire you as well. Is it really worth the risk?

 

[UPS Lifer]

One more thing to keep in mind: If you get injured while working off the clock, you will not receive workman's comp. UPS management will simply say that you were not on the clock and you are out of work with no money. And, since you're violating the rules of the contract while you were injured, they might fire you as well. Is it really worth the risk?

This is where being a locker room lawyer can get you in big trouble.

UPS is liable to pay worker's comp any time you are on property...PERIOD. Depending on what state you are in, there are state laws that can also come into play.

Please do not make statements you do not have a clear understanding of. You are making an argument that has no basis in merit.

Again there are state laws that prohibit employers from firing employees for getting injured.... HOWEVER, as an employee if you continue to fail to follow methods after being trained and re-trained etc etc. Then you could be separated from the company but you also can take it to panel. Remember, if you fail to follow methods and there is a trail of documentation and training you will certainly pay the price in the end.

 

[UPS Lifer]

What can honest drivers do to counteract this when so much pressure is coming down the pike now on numbers? working hard,being consistent, doing the methods, but numbers are way off daily...isnt that a red flag also???

As far as my above statement going to harassment... I am not sure what statement you are referring to. I hate the use of the word harassment. It is a buzz word just like racist or discrimination. It is often used to put fear into management. I never worked with me! The language is spelled out in the contract on OJSes and harassment. That has to be your guideline.

I stand by my statement. An honest driver trying to do a fair days work for a fair days pay has nothing to fear.....unless you let them get to you. Do what the supervisor asks you to do within the confine of the contract. If you are not doing a certain method start doing it. As long as a supervisor does not compromise your safety, do the job as they ask you to do it. If you continue to go in the hole, don't fret.

Remember - every Teamster has the union and the labor board they can go to. Every management person has the labor board they can go to. If the company is doing something wrong or illegal it will come out. If you are being unreasonable the same process will result.

Red flag - As most drivers can attest to... the allowances are tight. There is only so much time you could make up per stop. Anything else means you are short cutting the methods. There is two - exceptions. An allowance that is purely wrong in the favor of the driver (as was my case with a street allowance for driving on a highway) OR the driver has created and encouraged a tremendous amount of customer help. Customer help is anything that a driver should be doing that a customer does to help. Loading - bringing the packages to the car on a pick up - meeting the driver at the car instead of the driver going 100 feet into the business or residence - locking off an elevator. If you are being time studied the TS observer is supposed to take the customer help out but I would be extremely leary of this. I would tell the customers not to help that day. This is a catch 22 problem. Without the help you may have to have your route cut because of service issues.

If a supervisor can't find much wrong with what you are doing, you are absolutely right that is a red flag that you are not the problem. Ask the supervisor to quantify the time lost for the method they say you are not doing. I routinely put a time factor to a method that was not being done to show the driver how much time they were losing. I was usually within 10 minutes of the over-allowed for the day of the ride. A lot of the time can correspond to excessive customer contact. This is hard for a driver to understand but that extra minute taken talking with a customer can add up to a lot of over-allowed. You may feel that this is against the nature of "providing service" to the customer but I look at it as taking service away from another customer who now is getting their delivery or pick-up 20 minutes later than they should have.

Hope I answered all of your questions! Thanks for taking the time to ask them.

 

[hurricanegunner]

This is where being a locker room lawyer can get you in big trouble.

UPS is liable to pay worker's comp any time you are on property...PERIOD. Depending on what state you are in, there are state laws that can also come into play.

Please do not make statements you do not have a clear understanding of. You are making an argument that has no basis in merit.

Again there are state laws that prohibit employers from firing employees for getting injured.... HOWEVER, as an employee if you continue to fail to follow methods after being trained and re-trained etc etc. Then you could be separated from the company but you also can take it to panel. Remember, if you fail to follow methods and there is a trail of documentation and training you will certainly pay the price in the end.

I never said he would be fired for getting hurt. I said he could be fired for violating the contract. Working off the clock violates the contract. Sure, it will go to panel. Whenever management allows it to. And don't think they won't drag it out. They love doing that.
UPS can certainly deny workers comp. They simply call Liberty Mutual and tell them the claim is denied. They did it to me when I was injured ON the clock. I then had to hire an attorney to deal with that mess. It took 3 months to get all my benefits. The union did not pay for the attorney. I did. Now he might hire an attorney and get his workers comp. But I ask again, is it worth it? And as far as the state laws regarding workers comp go, that requires an attorney. The union will not pay for the attorney. The hourly does.
My point is, if he is injured while working off the clock, he's asking for an awful lot of trouble. Trouble that he could avoid by simply not working off the clock. I'm not trying to be a locker room lawyer. I'm just trying to help him avoid a lot of hassle. Don't work off the clock!

 

[Dragon]

When I am with a driver and I know the customer helps. I tell the customer don't mind me I am here to observe, feel free to do what they normally do when I am not around. It's worked everytime, the customer helps out and the driver asks me if I am going to count that as part of the OJS. My answer: absolutely, I even include in the letter of record.

 

[UPS Lifer]

I never said he would be fired for getting hurt. I said he could be fired for violating the contract. Working off the clock violates the contract. Sure, it will go to panel. Whenever management allows it to. And don't think they won't drag it out. They love doing that.
UPS can certainly deny workers comp. They simply call Liberty Mutual and tell them the claim is denied. They did it to me when I was injured ON the clock. I then had to hire an attorney to deal with that mess. It took 3 months to get all my benefits. The union did not pay for the attorney. I did. Now he might hire an attorney and get his workers comp. But I ask again, is it worth it? And as far as the state laws regarding workers comp go, that requires an attorney. The union will not pay for the attorney. The hourly does.
My point is, if he is injured while working off the clock, he's asking for an awful lot of trouble. Trouble that he could avoid by simply not working off the clock. I'm not trying to be a locker room lawyer. I'm just trying to help him avoid a lot of hassle. Don't work off the clock!

WOW! 36 years working for the company and this is the first time I have ever heard of an assumption that UPS would fire you for working off the clock! I guess it could happen! If I were a BA I know I could make that go away.

Also, you should never have had to hire a lawyer to get workers comp. If you had a legitimate injury on the job any BA worth their salt should be able to help you. In fact, if the union does not represent your interest you can take recourse against them. Hopefully, you won't have that kind of problem in the future. On the same note, if you hired a lawyer before allowing the union to help you with the matter you probably took the power away from them to help you. As soon as you get a lawyer involved UPS severs all basic contact with the employee and deals only with the lawyer... as you probably found out.

Always let the union represent you before taking further action.

 

[hurricanegunner]

WOW! 36 years working for the company and this is the first time I have ever heard of an assumption that UPS would fire you for working off the clock! I guess it could happen! If I were a BA I know I could make that go away.

Also, you should never have had to hire a lawyer to get workers comp. If you had a legitimate injury on the job any BA worth their salt should be able to help you. In fact, if the union does not represent your interest you can take recourse against them. Hopefully, you won't have that kind of problem in the future. On the same note, if you hired a lawyer before allowing the union to help you with the matter you probably took the power away from them to help you. As soon as you get a lawyer involved UPS severs all basic contact with the employee and deals only with the lawyer... as you probably found out.

Always let the union represent you before taking further action.

Actually, I went to the union at first, and they referred me to an attorney. They said it was not their responsibility to pay, but they did refer me. The lawyer was brilliant, and had dealt with UPS several times in the past with similar situations. He has represented several employees whose workers comp had been denied. I'm not the only one. While it would be nice of the union to pay, my main beef is with UPS for denying my claim, and many claims of fellow hourlies in our building. My own injury happened at 3:30pm, and was incapacitating. Could not continue to work. Why deny the claim??? Anyhow, you are right about one thing: I never want to go through that idiocy again.

 

[UPS Lifer]

Actually, I went to the union at first, and they referred me to an attorney. They said it was not their responsibility to pay, but they did refer me. The lawyer was brilliant, and had dealt with UPS several times in the past with similar situations. He has represented several employees whose workers comp had been denied. I'm not the only one. While it would be nice of the union to pay, my main beef is with UPS for denying my claim, and many claims of fellow hourlies in our building. My own injury happened at 3:30pm, and was incapacitating. Could not continue to work. Why deny the claim??? Anyhow, you are right about one thing: I never want to go through that idiocy again.

If the union recommended that to you I am sure that is the correct policy for your area. I can only speak about California law and workers comp. UPS could get in a lot of trouble if they didn't honor a legitimate claim. The union and the company handled WC conflicts and if an employee gets a lawyer involved it usually becomes a protracted situation.

I am glad everything worked out for you in the long run.

 

[Coldworld]

As far as my above statement going to harassment... I am not sure what statement you are referring to. I hate the use of the word harassment. It is a buzz word just like racist or discrimination. It is often used to put fear into management. I never worked with me! The language is spelled out in the contract on OJSes and harassment. That has to be your guideline.

I stand by my statement. An honest driver trying to do a fair days work for a fair days pay has nothing to fear.....unless you let them get to you. Do what the supervisor asks you to do within the confine of the contract. If you are not doing a certain method start doing it. As long as a supervisor does not compromise your safety, do the job as they ask you to do it. If you continue to go in the hole, don't fret.

Remember - every Teamster has the union and the labor board they can go to. Every management person has the labor board they can go to. If the company is doing something wrong or illegal it will come out. If you are being unreasonable the same process will result.

Red flag - As most drivers can attest to... the allowances are tight. There is only so much time you could make up per stop. Anything else means you are short cutting the methods. There is two - exceptions. An allowance that is purely wrong in the favor of the driver (as was my case with a street allowance for driving on a highway) OR the driver has created and encouraged a tremendous amount of customer help. Customer help is anything that a driver should be doing that a customer does to help. Loading - bringing the packages to the car on a pick up - meeting the driver at the car instead of the driver going 100 feet into the business or residence - locking off an elevator. If you are being time studied the TS observer is supposed to take the customer help out but I would be extremely leary of this. I would tell the customers not to help that day. This is a catch 22 problem. Without the help you may have to have your route cut because of service issues.

We are encouraged to get customers to help out a much as possible. If you have a route where you bonus or run scratch without customer help, then that is just extra frosting on the cake. If you have many customers helping and you are still hour or more over I feel something is seriously wrong with route allowance...because this customer help time can add up.



If a supervisor can't find much wrong with what you are doing, you are absolutely right that is a red flag that you are not the problem. Ask the supervisor to quantify the time lost for the method they say you are not doing. I routinely put a time factor to a method that was not being done to show the driver how much time they were losing. I was usually within 10 minutes of the over-allowed for the day of the ride. A lot of the time can correspond to excessive customer contact. This is hard for a driver to understand but that extra minute taken talking with a customer can add up to a lot of over-allowed. You may feel that this is against the nature of "providing service" to the customer but I look at it as taking service away from another customer who now is getting their delivery or pick-up 20 minutes later than they should have.

It seems like the big ones are selection and customer interaction. They say that there is time "built in" to allowances for some interaction...is this right? Do you know the allowance drivers get for selection??If so maybe you can quickly break it down from the time the wheels stop at a delivery..might help some here, including me, understand the process better.

Hope I answered all of your questions! Thanks for taking the time to ask them.

Finally, are drivers able to request a new time study? If a sup goes out and can only find a few minutes lost and a driver is an hour or two over somethings not right...can they request a new one?

 

[UPS Lifer]

Finally, are drivers able to request a new time study? If a sup goes out and can only find a few minutes lost and a driver is an hour or two over somethings not right...can they request a new one?

Kind of.... a manager has to ride with (unless this has changed in the last two years) the driver also and recommend the study. With all the advancements in technology there may be some things the IE group can do without getting on the car.

Other posters have said that getting a time study is like pulling teeth. So, I would say it depends on the clout of the manager on whether or not you get a study. All I can speak for is my experience. If I requested a study, it was put on the calendar. Within a month the study took place.

Here is another example.... I recommended against a study for a very influential shop steward. He just didn't have an allowance problem and he didn't have an over-allowed problem. I got on the car.

My division manager know he could get this shop steward in his pocket with a favorable study. Guess what! He got a study and the allowance went up by 40 minutes. This is not my way of doing things but I was the pawn in this game. Of course this was 20 years ago and I think you won't see this happening too much any more.

But the point is it has happened and could happen again!

How did the steward react?
The shop steward had a great attitude from that point forward and saw things from a more favorable point of view for UPS. But what do you think happened when he left that route... It dropped by 40 minutes of course.

 

[jimstud]

(Article 36 says that's a threat and harassment so maybe i will have to do something with ) you are wrong article 37 is the management employee relations part of the contract. stop working off the clock and don't make stupid threats.

 

[dannyboy]

Normally, you would think that an injury off the clock would not be a workers comp claim.

We had a driver that punched out, went home, only to realize that he had left his cell phone in the truck. Went back to the center, hopped across the belt, got his heal caught in the grating, and went down on the floor. Shattered his kneecap.

It was ruled workers comp.

But that is all a side issue, and does nothing but confuse what is actually the issue.

1 You are in an active work area. Until you are punched on the clock, you are not to be in an active work area. You are to stay in the common or break areas and wait for your start time.

2 When you are in the active work area, you are in the way of the preload. Yeah, Ive heard all the BS on this one, but you are in the way.

3 And this is the biggie, you are falsifying your time card. So far, I have yet to see someone file on this, but it is coming. You are doing what you normally get paid to do, but yet you have not started. Its the same as if a sup took 45 minutes off the end of your day.

So please, quit with all the "I dont see anything wrong with what I do" crap. Its wrong, dont do it.

d