United pilots agree to cuts

[gsx1990]

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2003/2003-03-28-united.htm

Since some of the loudest union promoters always
scream about how UPS should match "industry
based wages", I wonder if these same people think
our pilots should be considering pay cuts, now
that much of the "industry" is doing it?

 

[coniferman]

gsx1990,
I see the article is in the "travel" section of USATODAY. I didn't know UPS was in the travel industry. The business plans/business models are completely and totally different. But you already know that. Or do you?

 

[michael]

coniferman...

It makes no difference where the article shows up, the facts are what they are.

gsx has an excellent point and it deserves some discussion.

Michael

 

[coniferman]

Micheal,
You ignore the third sentence of the post. While it is absolutely irrefutable that the major/minor PASSENGER carriers are hurting horribly, that doesn't change the fact that the business plans/business models are completely different. Under gsx's belief, it would be akin to saying that if the vacation passenger cruise lines all were taking a terrible, awful hit and were faced with bankruptcy, and pressure was being applied to the ship captains to take a pay cut to help save "the sinking ship" as it were, then, according to gsx 1990, then the heavy cargo, container ship captains should also be pressured in to pay restructuring. My point in this senario is that while both are captains of large ships, both are responsible for huge ocean going vessels, both must be emminetly qualified for the job, THE TWO INDUSTRIES HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUSINES PLANS/BUSINESS MODELS. The container ship captain's industry is very sound. Record profits are being made,even in a down economy. The fact that the passenger vessel companies are in trouble doesn't really play into the economic realities of the cargo ship industry. Apples and oranges. Both are fruits, both grow on trees, both have vtamin c, the SIMILARITIES are astounding. However that doesn't change the fact, that while both are fruits, THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

 

[moreluck]

coniferman......you into pine cones????

 

[charlie]

Coniferman,

On the other hand, if the supply of passenger captains suddenly increases in the market due to a lack of demand, then supply and demand economics dictate a reduced price for the over supply and lowered demand. An ocean going ship captain is an ocean going ship captain. A 757/767 pilot is a 757/767 pilot....doesn't matter what the ship or plane is carrying. The market will ultimately determine the pay scale.

Charlie

 

[gsx1990]

coniferman,
Pilots are pilots. Mechanics are mechanics.
You union guys always have a way of sneaking
around the real issue.

 

[ups_vette]

coniferman:
I might be missing something, but would please explain what a companys business plan/model has to do with wheather the pilot flys a comerical 757/767/747/etc, or a cargo one? Are you saying if the business plan/model calls for paying a certain amount to pilots and that amount is reduced, the plan/model is no good? I would think just the opposit to be true, less cost. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

 

[over70lbpkg]

Not to downgrade anyone's job and start a controversy, but I think a "travel" airline pilot has a lot more responsibility (passengers lives) than a cargo pilot. One would reasonably think the travel pilot should make more.

 

[mackintosh1970]

>>One would reasonably think the travel pilot should make more.<<

I would tend to agree that a "people" pilot should make more, but I'm sure very few of our guys would agree...

 

[coniferman]

ups vette,
I am merely trying to point out that the major commercial passenger airlines are trapped in the old spoke and wheel plan. They must fly that scheduled route whether there is 1 ticket sold or 10 or a full plane. On the other hand we can truck our premium volume to the next city(if that's where it is going) at a substantial savings.
And to you gsx 1990, ..."you union guys are always trying to sneak around the issue" I am not a union guy. I am not hourly. That just goes to show, how incredibly petty and small minded you are. I thank God evrytime one of "you guys" gets his 30 and is 55!
For anyone one else who is interested. No I am not into pine cones. My family and I operate a Christmas tree farm. Hence "Coniferman" Get it?

 

[gsx1990]

confirman...

Why dont you stick to raising xmas trees. I'm
sure it took many years of education and smarts
to get to where you are at. Perhaps you can
get some workers to organize there, and demand
raises so that they make industry standards...

Pilots are pilots. Period.

 

[fr8dog]

So since Enron and Worldcom have flooded the market with layed off managment, should we expect UPS mgmt to forgo their stock for the year or take a pay cut(supply/demand). mgmt is mgmt

 

[gsx1990]

Management hasnt threatened strikes or demanded
industry leading wages. If you saw recently,
the UPS CEO makes much much less than most other
CEOs of companies the same size of UPS.

Get the facts buddy!

 

[charlie]

fr8dog,

If there was an oversupply of management people the answer would be yes. However, the management employment opportunity market is much larger than the pilot employment opportunity market and the excess management people were more easily absorbed into the labor market.

Unfortunately for the pilot market, there are a fixed amount of positions available based on a fixed amount of aircraft flying. These pilot positions cannot be absorbed back into the market until there are more planes flying.

With thousands of pilots available and more becoming available every day, with no where to go, I believe that salaries will become more negotiable.

At some point in the very near future, the over all business model needs to be updated for the airlines. The current model is not working and we are seeing the results right now.

Do I think senior captians are over paid? Yes.

Do I think pilot unions have become to powerful with their demands and out priced senior pilots? Yes.

Do I think corporate CEO's are over priced? Yes!

I also think the stock options game has gotten out of control and needs a new plan.

I also don't think Mike Eskew deserves a 17% pay increase when the rest of the folks are seeing minimal raises, and I think the amount of options that the directors are awarding themselves is getting out of control!

Charlie

 

[ups_vette]

confierman:
You can't seriously believe the UPS business plan/model calls for all next day and 2nd day packages to be flown? Of course the ones that can reach their destnation by ground as scheduled are moved by ground feeders. There are companies that use our air products to get the early morning guarentee deliver time, rather than the nonguarenteed ground delivery time.