USERRA Rights

[cachsux]

Easy there, cowboy. The OP has a valid point. Yes, I am a vet, but there is no way I would expect my employer to keep my job open for 10 years while I played soldier. Serving for 10 years means he reenlisted at least two times which would make him a career soldier.

.

Some people play soldier. Other people are soldiers. And some soldiers even though they have served their tour reenlist so that they don't leave their squad mates behind because they feel their presence will help get them all home. They don't do this thinking of themselves. They put others first.

So just as I'll hold the door for him, let him be seated at a restaurant before me and maybe even pick up his check, yea he can have that hypothetical precious vacation week pick ahead of me. I would have gotten to pick for ten years ahead of him and the odds of me getting shot at while I did so were probably not quite as high.

Out of 80+ or so of this persons available years of his lifespan on earth he has sacrificed 10 of them in the service of his country and people are really going to squabble over his place in line? Here's a little test. Those people who are at the building who did not serve, who got to go through a menial job at UPS those 10 years, speak up and tell us what they did with their lives during that 10 year period. If it's equally as valuable and selfless then let them stay in their place in line. The rest can step to the right and let a soldier through.

 

[Catatonic]

Let's suppose you were a 9 year employee and, due to high turnover in your hub, you were the top seniority PTer, which meant you got first dibs on vacations. Along comes this guy who used to work there 10 years ago and he is not only given his job back but is now the top seniority PTer in the hub, which means he get first dibs on vacations before you. How would you feel about that?

As I said, I am a vet and appreciate this guy's service, but the legislation was written in such a way to protect the rights of both the service member and the employees. Holding a position for 5 years is fair to all involved---holding it for 10 is fair only to the service member. When I was active duty and deciding whether to reenlist for a second time I was told numerous times that if you stay for eight you may as well stay for twenty. I got out at just under 8 years. Someone who has served for 10 years is a career soldier and IMO has given up any claim to his former job and any seniority within said job.

If he wants to come back to work he should be treated like any other new employee.

We can disagree on this one.

 

[washington57]

Everyone who is getting all uppity should remind themselves that there isn't a draft, this guy CHOSE to reenlist. Save the crap about dying for our country and patriotism. I would be angry if this happened at my hub, IMO this guy should go to the bottom. Let him keep his payrate but he should go to the bottom of the list. He hasn't been paying dues and hasn't earned his seniority at UPS. Just my opinion.

 

[cachsux]

Everyone who is getting all uppity should remind themselves that there isn't a draft, this guy CHOSE to reenlist. Save the crap about dying for our country and patriotism. I would be angry if this happened at my hub, IMO this guy should go to the bottom. Let him keep his payrate but he should go to the bottom of the list. He hasn't been paying dues and hasn't earned his seniority at UPS. Just my opinion.

You said it yourself. He CHOSE to serve. No one FORCED him to. I hope he has more time than you. It would be fun to watch you cry.

 

[kingOFchester]

Everyone who is getting all uppity should remind themselves that there isn't a draft, this guy CHOSE to reenlist. Save the crap about dying for our country and patriotism. I would be angry if this happened at my hub, IMO this guy should go to the bottom. Let him keep his payrate but he should go to the bottom of the list. He hasn't been paying dues and hasn't earned his seniority at UPS. Just my opinion.

I tend to agree. There are many many ways to thank a Soldier. Suggestions:
Volunteer at the VA hospital.
Contribute to non-profits that help our Heroes.
get involved in sending care packages to the active.
Reach a hand out, and just say Thank you.

But, I do not agree with overlooking the law and contract in order to show gratitude. Our union has enough issues with not following the contract.

 

[over9five]

You know, I was a little pissy when I read the first post. But now I applaud 10yearteamster for doing the right thing as a shop steward. He is investigating whether employees are being deprived of their seniority, that's all. If the returning soldier is eligible under the USERRA "more than 5 years rule", than he deserves his seniority. If he's not eligible, he does not.

I hope 10yearteamster returns to let us know what happens.

 

[menotyou]

Pat the guy on the back, shake his hand, say Thank you, and let the guy have his seniority.

I understand someone looking into it, and there is no harm in that; just, be sure to thank that gentleman for what he gave.

 

[washington57]

whatever, not going to argue about this. nevermind.

 

[10yearteamster]

You know, I was a little pissy when I read the first post. But now I applaud 10yearteamster for doing the right thing as a shop steward. He is investigating whether employees are being deprived of their seniority, that's all. If the returning soldier is eligible under the USERRA "more than 5 years rule", than he deserves his seniority. If he's not eligible, he does not.

I hope 10yearteamster returns to let us know what happens.

I'll definitely keep you guys posted. But I am on vacation this week, so it might be a while

 

[menotyou]

Question? Was his FT bid passed while he was gone? How does that work, if it was?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Question? Was his FT bid passed while he was gone? How does that work, if it was?

This is a very good question. The OP did say that the vet would be placed at the top of the PT seniority list so I would think that had any FT bids been posted during his absence he most certainly would have among those eligible to sign the bid sheet. Obviously it would be unfair to take away a FT job and give it to the vet; however, IMO it would be equally unfair to simply give him the next FT bid over the employee who is currently next in line to get this bid job. This is why it is so important to follow all of the rules all of the time.

If the time period was 5 years (or less) we would not be having this discussion as this is covered in the legislation. The vet would come back with his seniority intact and would take his place in line for the next FT bid. However, because we are talking 10 years, this fall outside of the rules and in to a gray area.

I would think that, to be fair, the vet should be given his job back at the same wage and position on the seniority list as when he left. It would be as if he put his job on hold for the 10 years that he was gone and is now going to pick up where he left off. To arbitrarily place him at the top of the seniority list would not be fair to those who put in their time.

 

[menotyou]

I agree that no one should be displaced. Beyond that, I am glad I am not involved.

 

[tourists24]

Its nice to have the knowledge of what the law says on this, but I guess I would be one of those slimy stewards that would let it go. There is no way in hell I would be the man to tell this veteran he cant come back if UPS allowed it. That can be someone else's fight.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Its nice to have the knowledge of what the law says on this, but I guess I would be one of those slimy stewards that would let it go. There is no way in hell I would be the man to tell this veteran he cant come back if UPS allowed it. That can be someone else's fight.

No one is denying him his right to come back---it is his place on the seniority list that is in question.

 

[tourists24]

No one is denying him his right to come back---it is his place on the seniority list that is in question.

yeah, I knew that. I didnt word that right I guess..... I feel the same either way though.

 

[Dragon]

This is a very good question. The OP did say that the vet would be placed at the top of the PT seniority list so I would think that had any FT bids been posted during his absence he most certainly would have among those eligible to sign the bid sheet. Obviously it would be unfair to take away a FT job and give it to the vet; however, IMO it would be equally unfair to simply give him the next FT bid over the employee who is currently next in line to get this bid job. This is why it is so important to follow all of the rules all of the time.

If the time period was 5 years (or less) we would not be having this discussion as this is covered in the legislation. The vet would come back with his seniority intact and would take his place in line for the next FT bid. However, because we are talking 10 years, this fall outside of the rules and in to a gray area.

I would think that, to be fair, the vet should be given his job back at the same wage and position on the seniority list as when he left. It would be as if he put his job on hold for the 10 years that he was gone and is now going to pick up where he left off. To arbitrarily place him at the top of the seniority list would not be fair to those who put in their time.

The way we have done it here is, his route is put up for bid while he is gone (since we do not know when he will return) when he returns to work, he is a cover driver until the next bid. We have never had a problem ( in 25 years) with it and the employee was always happy with it.

With the end of the IRAQ war and Afghanistan war winding down alot employees will be returning to their former jobs not only at UPS but other companies as well and I am sure this is generating some questions within the HR functions across the nation.

 

[menotyou]

The way we have done it here is, his route is put up for bid while he is gone (since we do not know when he will return) when he returns to work, he is a cover driver until the next bid. We have never had a problem ( in 25 years) with it and the employee was always happy with it.

With the end of the IRAQ war and Afghanistan war winding down alot employees will be returning to their former jobs not only at UPS but other companies as well and I am sure this is generating some questions within the HR functions across the nation.

That seems like it would work.

 

[808183]

I am a returning Vet after four years, I have 23 years with UPS and 29 years with the military. When I came back to work my route was dissolved my hours from my old route taken away and my retraining was a two day pencil whip where my supervisor did a ride along and spent most of the time on the phone. I filed a USERRA complaint but during the process I got injured on the job. I received a memo from UPS stating that I have to bump someone from my center that is junior and if I cannot drive due to my injury, UPS will try and look for a job for me under the ADA Americans with Disability Act.

No one in my area UPS or union has a clear understanding of USERRA so I recommended a check list for returning Vets. HR, union rep, center rep, USERRA rep, and myself would go over my rights to ensure all parties understood my rights and the rights of my company. Just to let you know I was laughed at from HR and was told if they needed help they would ask me for it.

As far as time away from work due to the military should be on a case to case process because some reserve units have a real world mission assigned to them. Also the more senior in rank comes more time away to attend schools and training not just for war or disasters but to stay proficient at your military skills. My unit is one of only two Guard units assigned to active duty unit and my unit is also my state Quick Reactionary Force.

 

[808183]

Be advised that states cannot take away from a federal regulation USERRA but they can add better benefits and change law so that the service member can take companies to court at the state level. Usually you can go to your state DOJ site and look under veterans benefits when absent for military duty.

 

[808183]

If you have been forcing a driver after coming back from military service to become a cover driver till another route comes open you are wrong, you are supposed to use the "Bump" system. The only way that works is the driver has to give up his route before they leave and be at the mercy of the management team when he gets back. That is so WRONG!