"You guys need to get a union!"

PT Car Washer

Well-Known Member
They could try, but most of their soldiers would defect if they did. Their pay checks would be bouncing after not too long.
The U.S. and the rest of the free world had their hands full fighting China during the Korean War. At that time it was an uneducated peasant army with no modern arms. China has dramatically modernize its military although it is still no match to the U.S. and NATO. I fear it would go nuclear if either side felt seriously threatened.
 

Whither

Scofflaw
No one is being compelled to participate in the market by anything other than their own self interest.
To me this post read like a Sunday school lesson. I'll focus on the above point. You might as well say "No one is being compelled to breathe by anything other than their own self interest." On an extreme technicality, yes, since the other option is simply not viable ...

The history of capitalism/global market development demonstrates that people did not volunteer (unless you count consenting under duress) to work the plantations and factories. For example in England, a pioneer in this history, the enclosure of the commons forced people off the land and into wage slavery -- *ahem*, into dependence on selling their labor to earn a wage. In recent history, consider the Soviet and Chinese governments' ruthless treatment of peasants in order to mobilize them to feed (and ultimately become conscripts in) a productive labor force ...

For fun, here's a short article (based off a scholarly work) contrasting the work habits of medieval serfs and those of us who live during the pinnacle of civilization -- The Average American Works Harder And Vacations Less Than A Medieval Peasant

Anyway, when you're born without land and you're trained from infancy to become a participant in the market, you participate in the market. And of course you must surrender plenty of your liberties in order to remain a participant, e.g., to survive. Our contract, in part, is a registry of how many liberties we must surrender and in exchange for what.

Maybe you can get out of Dodge, but you do not leave the Hotel California ...
 

zubenelgenubi

Well-Known Member
To me this post read like a Sunday school lesson. I'll focus on the above point. You might as well say "No one is being compelled to breathe by anything other than their own self interest." On an extreme technicality, yes, since the other option is simply not viable ...

The history of capitalism/global market development demonstrates that people did not volunteer (unless you count consenting under duress) to work the plantations and factories. For example in England, a pioneer in this history, the enclosure of the commons forced people off the land and into wage slavery -- *ahem*, into dependence on selling their labor to earn a wage. In recent history, consider the Soviet and Chinese governments' ruthless treatment of peasants in order to mobilize them to feed (and ultimately become conscripts in) a productive labor force ...

For fun, here's a short article (based off a scholarly work) contrasting the work habits of medieval serfs and those of us who live during the pinnacle of civilization -- The Average American Works Harder And Vacations Less Than A Medieval Peasant

Anyway, when you're born without land and you're trained from infancy to become a participant in the market, you participate in the market. And of course you must surrender plenty of your liberties in order to remain a participant, e.g., to survive. Our contract, in part, is a registry of how many liberties we must surrender and in exchange for what.

Maybe you can get out of Dodge, but you do not leave the Hotel California ...
You misunderstood, then conflated two different points. The minute you engage in trade, you involve yourself in a market. It is almost inescapable, because it is a an integral aspect of society and civilization. To escape markets, you would have to disengage from society entirely. That is admittedly becoming more and more difficult, but by no means impossible. In that sense you are limited only by your imagination.

The point I was making is that you are free to choose your level of involvement in the market. You are never guaranteed success in that engagement, but that is an unavoidable reality. No one is holding a gun to your head telling you that you must work a certain job, or any particular number of hours. It all comes down to your level of self interest, and what you want out of life, and your abilities and willingness to achieve at the level necessary to obtain the life you want.

If you think serfs had anywhere near the standard of living we have, you're in for a rude awakening. We work 160 hrs per year more, and we don't have to walk in human feces everywhere we go. That's a trade I'll gladly, voluntarily, engage in. But if you think serfs had it better than we do, however, then by all means, find a feudal lord to pay homage to.

The point about getting out of dodge was that if you don't like the way your city or state is run, you are at liberty to move somewhere more suited to your tastes, or stay and try to change things.

I hope that wasn't too unsophisticated or hackneyed for your sensibilities.
 
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UnconTROLLed

perfection
To me this post read like a Sunday school lesson. I'll focus on the above point. You might as well say "No one is being compelled to breathe by anything other than their own self interest." On an extreme technicality, yes, since the other option is simply not viable ...

The history of capitalism/global market development demonstrates that people did not volunteer (unless you count consenting under duress) to work the plantations and factories. For example in England, a pioneer in this history, the enclosure of the commons forced people off the land and into wage slavery -- *ahem*, into dependence on selling their labor to earn a wage. In recent history, consider the Soviet and Chinese governments' ruthless treatment of peasants in order to mobilize them to feed (and ultimately become conscripts in) a productive labor force ...

For fun, here's a short article (based off a scholarly work) contrasting the work habits of medieval serfs and those of us who live during the pinnacle of civilization -- The Average American Works Harder And Vacations Less Than A Medieval Peasant

Anyway, when you're born without land and you're trained from infancy to become a participant in the market, you participate in the market. And of course you must surrender plenty of your liberties in order to remain a participant, e.g., to survive. Our contract, in part, is a registry of how many liberties we must surrender and in exchange for what.

Maybe you can get out of Dodge, but you do not leave the Hotel California
Talking about your post? It's hard to tell when you don't quote or reply.
You enjoy arguing, regardless of whether your opinion has any merit or background. That's why I didn't take the time like Whither did.
 

Whither

Scofflaw
If you think serfs had anywhere near the standard of living we have, you're in for a rude awakening.
Wait, they didn't have the interwebs, Netflix, cars or healthcare plans?!

We work 160 hrs per year more
As UPS drivers? :lol: I would kill for 5 days a week/50 hrs right now!

and we don't have to walk in human feces everywhere we go.
San Franciscans would beg to differ. ;)

However. We have gotten far afield from the discussion re: making a stronger, more rank and file driven union. That is my current and longer-term interest.
 

zubenelgenubi

Well-Known Member
You enjoy arguing, regardless of whether your opinion has any merit or background. That's why I didn't take the time like Whither did.
More like you don't have any real counterpoints. He at least tried, even if he was off the mark. Your are entitled to your opinion, as much as I am, and you are even at liberty to believe your opinion has greater merit than mine. Just another reason why America is great. Oh no! I just got illogical again, I guess.
 

DELACROIX

In the Spirit of Honore' Daumier
To me this post read like a Sunday school lesson. I'll focus on the above point. You might as well say "No one is being compelled to breathe by anything other than their own self interest." On an extreme technicality, yes, since the other option is simply not viable ...

The history of capitalism/global market development demonstrates that people did not volunteer (unless you count consenting under duress) to work the plantations and factories. For example in England, a pioneer in this history, the enclosure of the commons forced people off the land and into wage slavery -- *ahem*, into dependence on selling their labor to earn a wage. In recent history, consider the Soviet and Chinese governments' ruthless treatment of peasants in order to mobilize them to feed (and ultimately become conscripts in) a productive labor force ...

For fun, here's a short article (based off a scholarly work) contrasting the work habits of medieval serfs and those of us who live during the pinnacle of civilization -- The Average American Works Harder And Vacations Less Than A Medieval Peasant

Anyway, when you're born without land and you're trained from infancy to become a participant in the market, you participate in the market. And of course you must surrender plenty of your liberties in order to remain a participant, e.g., to survive. Our contract, in part, is a registry of how many liberties we must surrender and in exchange for what.

Maybe you can get out of Dodge, but you do not leave the Hotel California ...
STORM THE BASTILE!!! Off with their heads I say..
:runcirclsmiley2:
 

UnconTROLLed

perfection
Now discussing an opinion on the interwebz is seen as a form of liberty in America...it's amazing, I had no idea the internet was America too. Since we're so much better than everyone, can we just call everything America or is that too arrogant?
 

UnconTROLLed

perfection
More like you don't have any real counterpoints. He at least tried, even if he was off the mark. Your are entitled to your opinion, as much as I am, and you are even at liberty to believe your opinion has greater merit than mine. Just another reason why America is great. Oh no! I just got illogical again, I guess.
I told you why, it's because you were already corrected by Wither. your listening skills are about at the level as a resident knowitall
 

zubenelgenubi

Well-Known Member
Now discussing an opinion on the interwebz is seen as a form of liberty in America...it's amazing, I had no idea the internet was America too. Since we're so much better than everyone, can we just call everything America or is that too arrogant?
The US has, until recently, played a large role in managing the different aspects of the internet. It has stepped back from that, and guess who is rushing in to try to gain greater influence over the management, and eventual global regulatory authority, of the internet? That's right, China. And China would never dare to try to impose their censorship on other countries, right? I mean, the NBA and Hollywood kowtowing to the CCP isn't really anything to worry about, right?

But I never said citizens of other countries don't have the same liberties that we do, you inferred that... incorrectly, I might add. But how many other countries modeled their recognition and protection of individual liberties on the those of the US?
 

zubenelgenubi

Well-Known Member
Wait, they didn't have the interwebs, Netflix, cars or healthcare plans?!

As UPS drivers? :lol: I would kill for 5 days a week/50 hrs right now!

San Franciscans would beg to differ. ;)

However. We have gotten far afield from the discussion re: making a stronger, more rank and file driven union. That is my current and longer-term interest.
Why would you bring up a point about a historical group of people who might have had what you consider to be one thing better than we do, when basically every other aspect of their lives was arguably worse? Then to laugh it off when I pointed it out as if I was being ridiculous. Disingenuity at it's finest right there.

I think we both know why San Fransisco is having the issues it is, and that doesn't exactly bolster your position.

I didn't start this rabbit hole, I was just giving @rickyb a hard time about his obsessiveness about what happens in the US. But I was more than happy to go down it with @UnconTROLLed.

The first step in making conditions for workers better is to have the clearest understanding of their problems, and the causes thereof, as possible. I can't speak to all of the issues workers face in the US, let alone abroad. But arguing about what we do understand can help us gain a better understanding of the views of others, and maybe, just maybe, help us be better equipped to make better decisions.

That is why I like to argue, not to prove that I know everything, which I freely admit I do not, but to try and pry nuggets of wisdom from the clutching grasp of others. I appreciate your input because we align in some ways, and not in others, and you never seem to take the conversation personally. I'd gladly cross swords with you any day, metaphorically speaking.
 
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a911scanner

Well-Known Member
US is not at the top of any lists for "best countries to live" or highest quality of life, to my knowledge.
Overall, for those that are willing to work hard & be respectful of others, it is a pretty dang good country to live in. Especially for those that don't have much to begin with. They are poor no matter where they are from, so they probably have a better chance to change that here.

Those that have money just go where they have the lowest taxes & greatest freedoms. The rest is minutiae for them.

Although there are certainly a select minority, you sure don't hear about millions of ex-pats from the US every year.
 

Whither

Scofflaw
Why would you bring up a point about a historical group of people who might have had what you consider to be one thing better than we do, when basically every other aspect of their lives was arguably worse? Then to laugh it off when I pointed it out as if I was being ridiculous. Disingenuity at it's finest right there.
Not disingenuous at all. I have sincere doubts re: the blessings of modern civilization. Would take a long discussion to address, and we likely would not agree. My point is, do not underestimate the worth of leisure/time off. Nor that our ancestors were somehow able to survive a hundred thousand years without our vaunted standards of living. Do I think it was a primrose path? By no means. Do I think we have sacrificed plenty to get these standards? Absolutely. And of course, the great majority of people don't attain our (UPS RPCD) standards anyway, though they also work hard and under great pressure.

I think we both know why San Fransisco is having the issues it is, and that doesn't exactly bolster your position.
This city is unaffordable and is 'suffering' minor blowback in response. Why did it become so unaffordable? The market, above all. Thanks to the tech boom, abetted in every way by governments from city to state to federal, there's been an influx of people who can afford to pay outrageous rents/mortgages.

The first step in making conditions for workers better is to have the clearest understanding of their problems, and the causes thereof, as possible. I can't speak to all of the issues workers face in the US, let alone abroad. But arguing about what we do understand can help us gain a better understanding of the views of others, and maybe, just maybe, help us be better equipped to make better decisions.
I fully agree with the spirit of your statement here. The humility too. I am willing to jump the gun and admit: personally, I think the interest of workers is to no longer be workers, to no longer live in a society that requires wage labor, which for the most part has been (and still is) a lifelong indenture, to carry on. As workers, we inevitably surrender a priceless degree of freedom (of course, under our conditions, if we must do so, it is always better to surrender this freedom as expensively/painfully as possible). On my view, the same is true of the petty business-owner. As for the big fish that somewhat escape this situation, I don't envy them. I want another world. If that's absurd to say, fine. Let this world answer for its own absurdities.

That is why I like to argue, not to prove that I know everything, which I freely admit I do not, but to try and pry nuggets of wisdom from the clutching grasp of others. I appreciate your input because we align in some ways, and not in others, and you never seem to take the conversation personally. I'd gladly cross swords with you any day, metaphorically speaking.
Right back atcha, brother. I appreciate your attitude even if we sometimes disagree. I'm used to people disagreeing with me. :wink2:
 
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zubenelgenubi

Well-Known Member
I fully agree with the spirit of your statement here. The humility too. I am willing to jump the gun and admit: personally, I think the interest of workers is to no longer be workers, to no longer live in a society that requires wage labor, which for the most part has been (and still is) a lifelong indenture, to carry on. As workers, we inevitably surrender a priceless degree of freedom (of course, under our conditions, if we must, it is always better to surrender this freedom as expensively/painfully as possible). On my view, the same is true of the petty business-owner. As for the big fish that somewhat escape this situation, I don't envy them. I want another world. If that's absurd to say, fine. Let this world answer for its own absurdities.
I'm a philisophical absurdist myself. What do you think is the best path to a worker free world? And what would people do with themselves without some work to apply themselves to?

I think we need two things to make this happen. First, a practically infinite source of free energy. Second, some sort of automated, absolute control over matter (like replicators from Star Trek). Then, when we meet those two conditions, we will have new, existential problems to deal with.

Until those two conditions are met, we are stuck with what we have, and I'm hoping not to devolve to a point where actual slavery becomes an acceptable option again. In the meantime, I do agree that everyone should fight and scrap for every penny they can get for their efforts. Negotiation and objective self-evaluation are skills everyone needs to develop.
 
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