Business and 21st Century: UNION not needed

tieguy

Banned
I'm unsure if anyone here remembers working jobs that weren't union. I've been with UPS for only around a year now and worked nonunion crappy jobs for around 9 years (since I'm still a youngin many of the jobs were student jobs).

1. I recall being laid off from a comic book store (best job in the world by the way) because our manager goofed up and bit off more then he could chew. Someone with less seniority took over the job I had for less pay.

2. I worked janitorial duties at a radio shack (I don't know why radio shack needed a janitor, but what the hay!). Sales went down and I was out the door.

3. I worked security gigs for awhile and wasn't paid $5000 for two weeks work I did with one company and the government couldn't FORCE the company to pay me cash. Instead the company got a note saying, 'please give him his money' and that was all.

4. Working security at another spot I phoned in sick with food poisoning but was told to come in otherwise I wouldn't have a job the next day. Well, I was sick as a dog all night and was terminated the next day anyways for the standard nonunion reason of, 'not performing job expectations'.

Without a union all these lovely things happen on a regular basis. Yes, paying dues stinks but that dues is the only thing keeping us where we are. Think about it this way. In Canada our top wage is around $24 an hour. That's after 2.5 years. Why wouldn't the company terminate all their $24 an hour employees and give it to people for 2 years then terminate them after that for 'not performing job expectations'. I think it was our HR guy that told us it costs around $15 000 to train a new driver. If you do the math it's pretty easy to see how much they would save by doing this.

Good luck proving you were performing as required.

All thats good but realistically its more a reflection on lower paying menial jobs then on the overall job market in general.

Keep in mind approximately 85 percent of the country works non-union jobs.

Do a real estate search in my part of the country and at least 75 percent of the houses that pop up are more then 300 K. Theres a lot of somebodys out there making a lot of money in non-union jobs.
 

tieguy

Banned
tie, I'm too tired for those kind of games anymore. It just breeds an attitude of contempt. Study the threads here, I think you can notice that as well.

I actually agree with you. I've never been a fan of games. You spend too much time trying to figure out what game someone is playing that you could spend productively.

My comments are my opinion on what Article seven and discharges in general amount to in a union shop.
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
So Jimstud you think we should get rid of management......you don't think the drivers could do it by themselves do you? Lets see if you (the driver) can do the following, while all of you are on road of coarse....

1. Plan how many packages are scheduled to come in the next day
2. Make a plan on how many drivers to use, because believe it or not throwing 3 or 4 extra drivers on road doesn't make you any money
3. How many vehicles to use and what type
4. Where will you park all the vehicles
5. Who and how many people are going to park the vehicles
6. Who and how many people are going to unload the vehicles
7. Who and how many people are going to load vehicles
8. Answer the phones in your center, since you are on road
9. Go out and make sales calls
10. Make sure all your vehicles are repaired
11. Decide how many planes we will need for the day
12. How will we repair the airplanes and when
13. Make sure time cards are correct and payroll is submitted daily
14. Plus about 1000 and 1 things I didn't mention that we do
14. and last but not least MAKE SURE THE COMPANY IS MAKING MONEY!! So you can come back the next day and have a job.

You probably "think" drivers could do these things (not saying they are not competent because they are) but you CANNOT because you are delivering all day.

So get over your beef with management, just like I need drivers to deliver packages you need management to do all the things listed above.

Okay, I am stepping down now........

there are small centers who do not have management of any type on property all day. One might come from a larger building once in a while to do a yearly ride or to investigate an accident, but more often than not they are on their own and do fine each and every day.
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
Has anybody brought up the fact that if there was no union at ups that management at the district level, down to the part time sups would probably be lower as well.
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
ok, some of em are doctors and lawyers, but i don't think there are any fedex ground drivers living there

there are so many out there now days that run their own businesses( and Im not talking about avon or ebay) that do very well. This is a sector that has exploded in the last 20 years or so....
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
"Last time I looked FDX was pretty close. They had some perks we don't have that probably put the overall package very close to ours."

Ok then give each ups driver the amount of work that is on a typical fedex express car each day and drop our pay to a top wage fedex driver. But this wouldnt work because ups would not consider the workload a fair days work for fair days pay. So they arent happy with our load vs. pay now and they wouldnt be happy with a fedex style load vs fedex pay rate either.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
you said you have 36 years in..are you close to retirement? somewhere between 2 months and 4 years :anxious:

Is there a limit on years worked before they try to force you out??
I'll let you know ... personally or through my lawyer. :wink2:

Seriously, that would be "age discrimination" so it couldn't be obvious.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
In Germany every job is union (above 5 employees).

If you cut hair, or even a waitress or a cook in a restaurant, your most likely unionized, thru some central union. (retail union, food union, metal union, etc).

Anyways, what I really liked about thier system over there. Is that union pay is basically minimum wage.

And it's normal, that if you're better qualified or work harder.. you'll get over union pay (bonus) on each paycheck.

Doggies don't get anything, the good people they wanna keep, and are doing thier job well, get a discreet bonus added on.

And those bonuses add up.
my first bonus was $100 a month, then $200, then $400., all the way up to $900 per month. (this was early 80's).
And I still could have gone much higher... but left the company after 8 years. (to move here).
But, I must admit, if you have a major friend.up, they can take some or all of that bonus away as recost.

That's whats missing here !
At UPS it's a bit different. But if you work in a factory, that is union, I can tell you, you get some that will just stand and watch you work... while they get the same pay you do.

I guess you could compare it with loaders... some are lazy, some are fast.
The fast ones should get rewarded. Or eventually, they'll slow down , too.
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
I have the answer 2 that 1. It's not really as complicated as u would think either.
We have certain guidelines that has a simple idea in mind. To protect the work force. The IDEA is this, a fair days work for a far day's pay, and job security for those employed by said company. If management was to follow the guidelines than there would be no grievence. Same as our responsability is to do our jobs as productive and little error as possable or we get written up.

The idea is to keep the company accountable just as we are held accountable.

These guidelines have been in agreed on by both said parties throughout all past and present contracts.

The basic grievinces are these:
Over 9.5 because like all peoples, we want a fair days pay but also want a fair time allowance to be home with our families.
Stealing work. It's the idea that managers are to manage and not do the work of an hourly, especially when there are so many of us hourly with insufficient hours work or are on lay off.

Does this sound unreasonable.

To sum things up we union workers at UPS are proudly the most productive, intelligent, and hard working force on this planet and don't deserve criticism over the FACT THAT WE ARE UNION. That is a fact that u cannot argue against. Our pay is HI, but ups gets every penny they can out of us and the fact that we are the only transport in this quarter to claim a decent profit while all others are at record losses proves just that.

Management would piledge us without the union and bring us down to the fast food chain with a revolving door on all four sides of each center.

It's sad really cause there is a real need for the union in AMERICA in many area's to protect the worker. The problem was many workers of those fields toke that power for granted and gave the union worker that bad lazy image but believe me. That worker is not many at UPS.

The KEY is to keep both parties held accountable for their actions, not just management or workers but both.

The desolve of the union force in the USA is #1 reason to blame for the LOW paying overworked jobs that are left and also part to blame for the export of these jobs outsourced to so many 3rd class countries.

Either you R management probing at this idea or are on the outside lookin in without a clue. In either case leave the same way you come in.



:goteam::goteam::goteam::goteam::goteam::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 

705red

Browncafe Steward
Like others have said I would be all for the elimination of the union because no company should have to put up with a terrible employee.

Ups has a probationary time frame to eliminate the ones that don't cut it. If someone that has been here 20 years and cannot work as fast as a 20 year old rookie you fell that they should be fired? Get real!

I just do not trust the way the company will be run and employees will be treated if there was no union. What makes more sense to me is UPS and the union come up with some reasonable agreements like if your over a certain age then you cannot be hired to do the more physical jobs, or if your performance is consistently bad then UPS can let you go, or if you have taken way too many days off then UPS can freeze your pay increases. Maybe even a set group of items that if an employee has stayed under a certain level of days off, and kept the quality of their work at a certain level, and maybe not had much attitude issues then they can receive the preset raise, but if they don't then they don't receive the raise. If the benefits disappeared with the union then there atleast needs to be a decent pay increase or else not many people are gonna work of the company. I know many people right now who only work there because of the good benefits. Take away those and not provide a pay increase and I guarantee 1/3 of the workers would quit right away.

Lets just break state and federal laws because we have a business to run! How old are you?

If people werent lazy and did the job to the best of there ability at all times there would be no reason for management threats. Union simply protects the lazy and underqualified and holds the company back. I am in the union and dont like it.

Dont let the door knob hit you were the good lord split you!

So Jimstud you think we should get rid of management......you don't think the drivers could do it by themselves do you? Lets see if you (the driver) can do the following, while all of you are on road of coarse....

1. Plan how many packages are scheduled to come in the next day
You mean so that all the packages fit on the trucks like they are suppose to? Doesnt happen now!
2. Make a plan on how many drivers to use, because believe it or not throwing 3 or 4 extra drivers on road doesn't make you any money
No paying 8 to 10 drivers at triple time for working them over 9.5 doent make any money!
3. How many vehicles to use and what type
The UPS ones, and the same amount of trucks for the routes that are being sent out. People actually get paid for this job?
4. Where will you park all the vehicles
How about the dock?
5. Who and how many people are going to park the vehicles
6. Who and how many people are going to unload the vehicles
7. Who and how many people are going to load vehicles
How about the same number of employees that are on the payroll for these jobs?
8. Answer the phones in your center, since you are on road
We dont have phone numbers on the delivery notices anymore!
9. Go out and make sales calls
That will be a first!
10. Make sure all your vehicles are repaired
Now you are a mechanic?
11. Decide how many planes we will need for the day
Im pretty sure that if we cant fit it into the planes we have now we will just load another plane!
12. How will we repair the airplanes and when
China, the next time the plane is there!
13. Make sure time cards are correct and payroll is submitted daily
Dont you mean altering the timecards!
14. Plus about 1000 and 1 things I didn't mention that we do
Like what?
14. and last but not least MAKE SURE THE COMPANY IS MAKING MONEY!! So you can come back the next day and have a job.
You guys sure have alot of knowledge in this area! wink wink!

You probably "think" drivers could do these things (not saying they are not competent because they are) but you CANNOT because you are delivering all day.

So get over your beef with management, just like I need drivers to deliver packages you need management to do all the things listed above.

Okay, I am stepping down now........
:happy-very:

you realize they probably ask the same stupid questions at a non-union company.

You can make a good arguement for a union. And you may be right. It would certainly seem to help wages and beni's to have the power of collective bargaining.

At the same time you have fdx out there who does pretty well without a union negotiating for them.
You mean like a 779 million dollar loss this last quarter?

we fire more people now because of the union and its grievance process. If we did not have a union and risked a lawsuit with every termination then we would fire a lot less people. thank your union the next time you get fired for getting you fired.
CMON! How many people have been fired only to get their jobs back because of the union? I will say that maybe 1 out of every 15 firings here stick, and thats because of the union!
 

705red

Browncafe Steward
maybe not. We would probably have more part time drivers without the union. It would still be cost effective to put the full time driver out there with a full car but I think we would use more part time drivers to supplement.

Without a union there would be nothing but part time drivers.

All thats good but realistically its more a reflection on lower paying menial jobs then on the overall job market in general.

Keep in mind approximately 85 percent of the country works non-union jobs.

Do a real estate search in my part of the country and at least 75 percent of the houses that pop up are more then 300 K. Theres a lot of somebodys out there making a lot of money in non-union jobs.
And how many of these homeowners have more than one salry? Compared to alot of UPS employees who spouses stay home to care for the family?
 
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