Government forced healthcare?

Should our government force health care on unwilling citizens?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • No

    Votes: 16 84.2%
  • Yes for children, but not for adults

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19

stevetheupsguy

sʇǝʌǝʇɥǝndsƃnʎ
Very inspirational story, however, this made national headlines because of it's miraculous outcome. Would you take that chance on one of your own ? But I do pray one day a natural cure evolves and the drug companies don't shoot it down......



I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but scientists, scientific data and the medical community have a say in a child's treatment, not the Reverend, Preacher or Pastor......but the medical community can't enforce overseers so that's where social services steps in.

Your child, is not a piece of property. Outside of the mothers womb it's a human being/ citizen, protected by rights in this country. You don't own or do as you please with a child thats deemed morally and unlawfully wrong. Were dealing with a child here, this isn't a social, libertarian or religious issue. Parents are responsible for the well being of their children otherwise Janet Reno will pay you a visit....



You have every right to post on this topic. All one has to do is turn on the local news or watch an episode of "Cops" and see all the disturb trashy people (and parents) who live and breed amongst us.
But diesel, not all parents are TT, or fodder for shows like cops. There are honest, law abiding parents that don't want their kids to be lab rats. Besides this, not everyone that is low income is TT. You're putting a wedge in, and government will use that wedge to take more control than you had planned. Your freedom is at stake here.
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
Thousands of people still die after receiving chemo and radiation. It is far from the only option.

Because some parents try alternative methods, Diesel96 labels them as poor parents. I think people who seek out alternative methods are probably better parents than parents who mindlessly follow forced government edicts, and single options given by doctors overwhelmingly seduced by drug company money. (No conflict of interest there, right D?)

I would also suggest that the main reason Billy Bests outcome seems "miraculous" is because more people don't do it. And the reason most people don't do it is because they are mindless sheep, willing to let the government tell them what kind of treatment they are allowed to receive.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Because some parents try alternative methods, Diesel96 labels them as poor parents. I think people who seek out alternative methods are probably better parents than parents who mindlessly follow forced government edicts, ...

Let's give D credit. Not all government edicts ... just those by a government headed up by Socialists.

A year ago, D would have been all against this government intervention. :wink2:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I know this can be a very emotionally charged subject from so many different directions and each has valid points. The clear choice would only seem clear from a cetain POV and I understand that.

A couple of posters pointed out the expertise of scienctific study/testing/etc. and it's hard to argue that point. Ah but lest I try.:happy-very:

I just happen to run across this written by an 87 year old who has a Ph.d. in biochemistry and holds more than 60 patents (US and Foreign) and most concern medical diagnostic tests. One might well say, this gentleman could easily qualify as being "expert" in the scientific field and who can doubt his medical expertise since his many patents aplly to that field. Now, that said consider his observation concerning lab testing as it might apply to drugs or even formats of medical treatment.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It’s difficult to make a determination of the effect of a nutrient on one of the little rodents kept prisoner in a laboratory. First you must obtain a series of identical subjects by inbreeding or cloning. Then you must compare two individuals (or, better, two groups of individuals) who differ only in whether or not they have received the nutrient in question. You must know where to look for differences and how to measure them (blood tests, growth rates, etc.). And you can be confident of your final result only with respect to these particular subjects and their particular living conditions, which, in the case of the little prisoners, usually include an unstimulating environment and a lack of exercise.
The problem is even more difficult for investigators who want to make such a determination on people. People have relatively long life spans, on the order of magnitude of the investigators’. Groups of identical subjects are hard to come by and their living conditions are not readily subject to control. And because different groups of free-living people (occupants of different countries, followers of different diets, members of different ethnic groups) differ in so many characteristics, one must be very cautious in imputing an observed difference in an outcome to an observed difference in behavior. Thus, it comes as no surprise that different investigators have come to different conclusions about the effect on people of eating saturated fat, the nutrient which is the subject of this essay.
[/FONT]

Now his comments pertain to the link between heart disease and saturated fats but what about in our discussion as it pertains to cancer and the standard prescibed accepted treatment from so many so-called experts? I've heard for example some talk that the mother and son headed to Mexico for alternative treatment. I don't know if true or not but if true, it does shoot holes in the idea that the mother is withholding treatment from her son. But you say those alternative ideas like treating cancer with vitamins is stupid. Really? Better tell the National Cancer Institute as they right now are studying just such a link.

Back in the 80's, some really nutty doctors and wacky alternative medicine types pointed out the chrystalline structure of cancer and it being a virus. Now my father has advance degrees in animal husbandry and if you ever want to know about viruses, don't ask your family MD, ask you family vet. I remember when this stuff was floating around and I didn't make heads nor tails of it but I remember my Dad uttering a really big "AH HA!" when he heard it. When it finally came out about the link between cervical cancer and a virus, I remembered those wack, nut doctors from the 80's and also seeing my dad smile and saying, "now that makes sense!"

Now as we speak, more and more traditonal medicine is looking at this viral link that 20 to 30 years ago was considered as nutty as the idea that George Bush and Dick Cheney flew the jets into the WTC personally on 9/11. Would any of you be upset if the mother had taken the boy to England for treatment at say the DoveClinic which is an accepted medical treatment facility that uses various vitamin regimens to treat cancer? No problem you say? They don't use chemo or radiation and yet in the socialist medicine world of England they operate quite nicely. :surprised: So much for the myth of free market medicine in America.
:wink2:

Why Vitamin C? Ah, the virus connection again. Understand the common cold and you may solve the riddle of cancer. Each cell's health may be the secret and vitamin C may be that health.

As you can see, collagen is everywhere in the body, and vitamin C plays a role in the formation of collagen. So, how is vitamin C involved in collagen synthesis?
When collagen is produced, there is a complex series of events, some occurring inside of the cell, and some outside of the cell. Vitamin C is active inside of the cell, where it hydroxylates (adds hydrogen and oxygen) to two amino acids: proline and lysine. This helps form a precursor molecule called procollagen that is later packaged and modified into collagen outside of the cell. Without vitamin C, collagen formation is disrupted, causing a wide variety of problems throughout the body.

Vitamin C as it turns out strenghtens the outter cell casing making it hard for a virus receptor to penetrate and infect the cell. As much as I dislike the over the top political fascism of Mike Savage, he is an expert when it comes to homopathy and alternative treatments and if I know he's talking this, I'm tuned in and well worth the listen. Everything else is just BLAH!

So for the experts advocating chemo/radiation, you can also point out experts advocating otherwise and for other alternative means so who decides?

The gov't! But here's the question everyone has to ask themselves abut the gov't blessed means of medical care. Was the ultimate decision made based off of imperical scientific proof of blind, impartial testing or was the decision made based upon the influence of lobbyist and corp. positioning to achieve a market position to benefit some companies bottomline? Has the gov't greenlighted a medical product or procedure before only to learn later it was bad, faulty, etc.? Has gov't mandated vaccines always proven 100% effective and 0% side effects? Ask your doctor to sign a guarantee before taking a vaccine and once how he runs for the exits unless you a really good doctor who will tell you the truth and vaccines. Start probing about vaccines and the link to autism as Jeannie McCarthy has and watch at the response and treatment you'll get. Ask your family doctor why he prescribes Viagra over one of the other 2 (sorry forgot the names) or Lipitor over one of the other cholesteral lowering drugs. For the answer, listen to the B side of Pink Floyd's Darkside of the Moon and the first song. The title speaks volumes!

Chasing this mother and her son may have much more to do with market protectionism than the health and wellbeing of that young man! Contrary to American mythology, we've have socialized (corporatism) medicine for years in this country and the brew ha isn't over having or not having socialized medicine but rather what corporate factions and business model will control it!

Then again, just take the blue pill and I won't exist, you'll have no memory of this and all will be well!
:happy-very:
:peaceful:

:money: Send me the taxbill moreluck!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Let's give D credit. Not all government edicts ... just those by a government headed up by Socialists.

A year ago, D would have been all against this government intervention. :wink2:

I don't see D as being alone in his position. As ironic as it may be, if you look at Tie's response to AV above, he in very many ways is saying the same thing as D.

On a completely humorous note.....

Now this being the case, is D becoming "conservative" or is Tie becoming "liberal"?

:winks:

I wish Cheryl would invent a Woody Woodpecker icon just for me. This would be a perfect spot!

:happy-very:
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
Again, since society doesnt meet your specifications on being morally right and wrong, you want the government to be GOD. Parents have to be able to make these kind of decisions. Its not anyone trying to force religion on you, it's called freedom. A parent may not own their child like property, but they sure do more than government.

Never said my specs. This forum is not about me. Much to Hoax's displeasure, I'm simply siding with, the doctors and cancer professionals who report to social services the parents unwillingness to treat the child with the best chances of surviving, although as unpleasant as it may be. I will disagree with you as far as religion. Aren't the parents and whatever denomination their church represents enforcing non-medical intervention religion on the child ? Takes away his freedom to have a way better chance to live.

But diesel, not all parents are TT, or fodder for shows like cops. There are honest, law abiding parents that don't want their kids to be lab rats. Besides this, not everyone that is low income is TT. You're putting a wedge in, and government will use that wedge to take more control than you had planned. Your freedom is at stake here.

Yeah, maybe I'm guilty of not trusting enough parents. Could be living with my Ex-wife for a number of years, who works with the police and exposing me to many a parenting horror story. And I agree, I don't want Gov't slowly sapping up our freedom as adults, but again were talking children here. Our kids need our gov't to step up and be a voice for them when adults don't. In turn, we, as free people, instruct our gov't to inform us of any child abusers/pedefiles living in our nieghborhoods, illnessnes in the community or schools, saftey and mfg recalls of any sorts pertaining to children.
My personal take is, some people here the word "GOV"T" and something clicks in their brain and automatically shuts down any prospect of rational thought..:wink2:....like you said not all parents are guilty, shouldn't we look at gov't the same way?


Thousands of people still die after receiving chemo and radiation. It is far from the only option.

True, but a thousand X ten survive, especially when caught early enough from spreading.....

Because some parents try alternative methods, Diesel96 labels them as poor parents. I think people who seek out alternative methods are probably better parents than parents who mindlessly follow forced government edicts, and single options given by doctors overwhelmingly seduced by drug company money. (No conflict of interest there, right D?)

Parents shouldn't use their children as guinea pigs or poker chips. The parent has every right to use alternative means on themselves, but shouldn't roll the dice with their kids. When you gamble in Vegas or at the Horse track, it's ok to bet on a longshot, why? You win big or, you lose money. Now lets wager on your kid's survival treatment, doctors puts the odds on favorite at 90% of survival at 2-1 fav, meanwhile experts put alternative methods at 99-1 odds on fav...however, the winning purse is life or death.....place your bet over9five....

I would also suggest that the main reason Billy Bests outcome seems "miraculous" is because more people don't do it. And the reason most people don't do it is because they are mindless sheep, willing to let the government tell them what kind of treatment they are allowed to receive.

I wasn't aware the big bad gov't was in the medical diagnosis business.....closest politician I can think of is Dr Ron Paul....and we know what kind of a quack he was called for calling out Reps'.

BTW...again, the gov't doesn't tell adults what kind of treatment they're allowed....just ask of you not to gamble on our kids with witchdoctors, Indian medicine-men, herbal specialist or the big guy in the sky to treat our youth....

I just want to add, this does not mean you shouldn't bow down to the gov't and the medical community such as the Parents with Autistic children with legitimate concerns with child vaccinations....we should always question and act upon when we think drugs go wrong...and I commend those parents...



Let's give D credit. Not all government edicts ... just those by a government headed up by Socialists.

A year ago, D would have been all against this government intervention. :wink2:

Hoax, maybe one of these days you'll post something on a contributing level without the word "socialists"...:smart:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I always liked this version of a Woody pic

csc_75th_logo.jpg


Back in the day Thrush mufflers also used this Woody pic for their product line.

thrush_mufflers_69.jpg


Now Steve, how can anyone ever watch just 23 seconds of a classic Woody Woodpecker cartoon?
As Woody would say eh-eh-eh-eh-eh!
:happy-very:

And if you're gonna talk about classic baseball cartoons, you can't ignore the best of them all when Bugs Bunny takes on the Gas House Gorillas!

The glove throwing trick never worked for me. I could throw and stop the ball but I never could get the glove to come back to my hand!
:wink2:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Hoax, maybe one of these days you'll post something on a contributing level without the word "socialists"...:smart:

WHAT? I thought Hoax was posting something of a contributory nature. I saw what he was doing as restating a known fact!

As Woody would say.... eh-eh-eh-eh-eh!

:wink2:

Besides D, the war et. al was wrong with Bush but now with Obama it's

Let's give the man a chance!

Hoax got ya on that one Dude!
:peaceful:

Hey where's Geronimo, this applies to "her" as well! I figure before it's over we'll see Blue Boy and Uncle Buck from the High Chaparral! Anybody wanna bet money on Manolito too?

:rofl:
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Much to Hoax's displeasure,

Hoax, maybe one of these days you'll post something on a contributing level without the word "socialists"...:smart:
To be honest, I did not even read what you posted. I don't have to ...

I wasn't trying to contribute, just funnying around.

One thing I know without reading either one of your posts.
D will be supporting Democrat party positions (Very Socialist)
and
Tie will be supporting Republican party positions (Medium Socialist).

The only reason I read these threads is to fulfill my Mod responsibilities ... but I am guilty of taking a few potshots on occasion, such as this time, to have a little fun. :peaceful:
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
To be honest, I did not even read what you posted. I don't have to ...

I wasn't trying to contribute, just funnying around.

One thing I know without reading either one of your posts.
D will be supporting Democrat party positions (Very Socialist)
and
Tie will be supporting Republican party positions (Medium Socialist).

The only reason I read these threads is to fulfill my Mod responsibilities ... but I am guilty of taking a few potshots on occasion, such as this time, to have a little fun. :peaceful:
Actually, if you had bothered to read before popping off, you would have found that Tie and D are both supporting the same position, and it has nothing to do with one being a democrat and the other a republican. Nice to know that part of your mod duties include taking content free shots at individual posters based on nothing more substantial than your own preconceptions.
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
think about what you're saying here. The child is a child and not able to think for thierselves. The parents should not be able to make a decision that allows that child to die when the medical knowledge is there to save his life.

We who are conservatives believe that all life is precious and all life should be saved. We can not deviate from that belief in this or any case if we are to be consistent.

Its not that government is necessarily intruding into our lives though they are in this case. Its that the parents are making a medical decision they are not qualified to make. someone with rational thought has to speak for the child.

There would be other examples where poor parenting decisions could result in damage to the child. We have an obligation to look out for that childs well being and to hold the parents accountable for its rearing.

Tie, I see your wearing your Ron Reagan "teflon" suit....Can I get me one of those....:wink2:.....


I don't see D as being alone in his position. As ironic as it may be, if you look at Tie's response to AV above, he in very many ways is saying the same thing as D.

On a completely humorous note.....

Now this being the case, is D becoming "conservative" or is Tie becoming "liberal"?

:winks:

I wish Cheryl would invent a Woody Woodpecker icon just for me. This would be a perfect spot!

:happy-very:

Imagine how boring this forum would be if we turned this into a lovefest....:sick:

I don't think Woody fits you.....more like the antagonistic Speedy Gonzalez....

Wkmac.....Improving the odds of saving vunerable lives of cancer strucking children wears no political or religious sleeves...

Now just come out and say it in layman's terms with out a whole composition for us simpletons, this corperate conspiracy theory simply can't afford a natural cure for cancer, cholestorol, or heart disease to take center stage....same as the oil Ind to be in any hurry to stop mfg'ing internal combustion engines....:greedy:

I now ask all of you to direct your ire at Tieguy.....
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Actually, if you had bothered to read before popping off, you would have found that Tie and D are both supporting the same position, and it has nothing to do with one being a democrat and the other a republican. Nice to know that part of your mod duties include taking content free shots at individual posters based on nothing more substantial than your own preconceptions.

That is not a Mod duty ... that is a personal initiative on my part.

That should have been obvious Jones. You are usually more perceptive than that. I guess you did not take time to think ... but that's okay with me.

PS - I still don't care what they were talking about.
None of our opinions mean anything and will have no impact on what the government or society does.

How's that for cynicism.

Sincerely,
The Hoaxster

PS - I still like your avatar :wink2:
 
Last edited:

diesel96

Well-Known Member
WHAT? I thought Hoax was posting something of a contributory nature. I saw what he was doing as restating a known fact!

As Woody would say.... eh-eh-eh-eh-eh!

:wink2:

Besides D, the war et. al was wrong with Bush but now with Obama it's


Quote:
Let's give the man a chance!


Hoax got ya on that one Dude!
:peaceful:


:rofl:

Yes, you got me for given O a chance to follow thru with his campaign promises, but obviously, and I'm stating a fact, the anti-war dot com crowd won't recognize his campaign promises and are guessing he'll stay in iraq indefinetly....

To be honest, I did not even read what you posted. I don't have to ...

I wasn't trying to contribute, just funnying around.

One thing I know without reading either one of your posts.
D will be supporting Democrat party positions (Very Socialist)
and
Tie will be supporting Republican party positions (Medium Socialist).

The only reason I read these threads is to fulfill my Mod responsibilities ... but I am guilty of taking a few potshots on occasion, such as this time, to have a little fun. :peaceful:

yeah...what Jones said.....:biting:.....Mod-sta....lol
 

stevetheupsguy

sʇǝʌǝʇɥǝndsƃnʎ
I just want to add, this does not mean you shouldn't bow down to the gov't and the medical community such as the Parents with Autistic children with legitimate concerns with child vaccinations....we should always question and act upon when we think drugs go wrong...and I commend those parents...
So, parents that have Autistic children should have the right to reject the Gov't, which states that vaccines have nothing to do with Autism, which by the way was "proven" by a court of law.

While parents that don't agree with their Dr.'s about chemo and other "life saving" medicine/poisons, should be subject to Gov't interfering with their parenting? Religion aside, not very many people want to subject children to what can amount to medical abuse.

And if you're gonna talk about classic baseball cartoons, you can't ignore the best of them all when Bugs Bunny takes on the Gas House Gorillas!

The glove throwing trick never worked for me. I could throw and stop the ball but I never could get the glove to come back to my hand!
:wink2:
One of my favorites. I got, I got, I got.........He got it!

Actually, if you had bothered to read before popping off, you would have found that Tie and D are both supporting the same position, and it has nothing to do with one being a democrat and the other a republican. Nice to know that part of your mod duties include taking content free shots at individual posters based on nothing more substantial than your own preconceptions.
Ouch, careful how you swipe at the Hoax, he just had eye surgery.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
So, parents that have Autistic children should have the right to reject the Gov't, which states that vaccines have nothing to do with Autism, which by the way was "proven" by a court of law.

While parents that don't agree with their Dr.'s about chemo and other "life saving" medicine/poisons, should be subject to Gov't interfering with their parenting? Religion aside, not very many people want to subject children to what can amount to medical abuse.

God Bless Jeannie McCarthy and her efforts in exposing light on this issue. If I ever have the honor to meet her, she gets a big hug from me and my wife for her heroism on this very issue.

One of my favorites. I got, I got, I got.........He got it!

I love that damn cartoon. LMAO everytime I watch it!

Ouch, careful how you swipe at the Hoax, he just had eye surgery.

I guess Hoax and Jones just don't "see eye to eye" on this issue!

No offense Hoax, didn't know about you surgery but hope you are feeling and doing well.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Ouch, careful how you swipe at the Hoax, he just had eye surgery.

I guess Hoax and Jones just don't "see eye to eye" on this issue!

No offense Hoax, didn't know about you surgery but hope you are feeling and doing well.
Nice pun.
Doing fine ... thanks.
Though a bit hurt by Jonesy. :wink2:
 
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